Author Topic: Father Kramer to the Feeneyites (Read 25856 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #195 on:** June 04, 2014, 01:25:03 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

SJB is not a Feeneyite and would be more likely to properly and accurately apply the term.

You obviously missed the point of the sarcasm. If it's Feeneyism that makes people uncharitable, then what's SJB's excuse?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #196 on:** June 04, 2014, 01:25:15 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

We've addressed your absurd "persevere" argument on a number of occasions already.

That simply means that what counts is your final state at death when it comes to your salvation, i.e. it just means that they must die in that state.

Cf. Cantate Domino

Quote
unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock

As I said, every time you people post it just makes me more certain that BoD is nothing but nonsense. You don't serve your cause very well.

Answer the question. If you were a catechuman would you chose to deny Christ rather than die before being baptized?

You seem rather ready to respond to other issues, why not answer the question with a "yes" or "no"? Isn't that how Catholics are to respond to questions?

Additionally it is rather Protestant to take a partial sentence out of an entire docuмent and use it for your novel interpretation of Catholic teaching. Context anyone?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #197 on:** June 04, 2014, 01:28:36 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

If you were a catechuman would you chose to deny Christ rather than die before being baptized?

Absolutely not (in principle -- obviously I don't know whether I'd chicken out under the circuмstances, except that I be aided by the grace of God). How is that even a question? There's never any reason to deny Christ. Ends can never justify the means. That's basic Catholic Moral Theology 101.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #198 on:** June 04, 2014, 01:31:32 PM »

Now that I've answered your question, please answer my questions. Yes or no answers only.

Question #1:
Is the Sacrament of Baptism necessary for salvation?

Question #2:
Can non-Catholics be saved?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #199 on:** June 04, 2014, 01:41:56 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
If you were a catechuman would you chose to deny Christ rather than die before being baptized?

Absolutely not (in principle -- obviously I don't know whether I'd chicken out under the circuмstances, except that I be aided by the grace of God). How is that even a question? There's never any reason to deny Christ. Ends can never justify the means. That's basic Catholic Moral Theology 101.

Then you do not deny BOB unless. Before I answer your questions will you affirm or deny that you accept BOB?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #200 on:** June 04, 2014, 01:44:48 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
SJB is not a Feeneyite and would be more likely to properly and accurately apply the term.

You obviously missed the point of the sarcasm. If it's Feeneyism that makes people uncharitable, then what's SJB's excuse?

You may or may not have a slight point. But then you are uncharitable. If you accurately use the term how uncharitable are you. Is his motive to wake some one up. Is it to slap him down merely to slap him down. Is it to protect others from accepting his errors. I think his motives are good. I don't doubt your motives are good either. In fact I am pretty sure that your motives are good.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #201 on:** June 04, 2014, 01:46:22 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Articles promoting BOB/D correctly defends EENS.

You are absolutely diabolically blinded about this subject.

That fully describes you. I hope you see the light before you meet the Maker. I know you are capable.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #202 on:** June 04, 2014, 01:46:46 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Then you do not deny BOB unless. Before I answer your questions will you affirm or deny that you accept BOB?

I do not currently believe in BoB. I admit that there's more Patristic evidence for it than for BoD, but I do not think it conclusive, i.e. I don't think there's enough of it to prove a unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers. If you trace it, it appears to have its origins in the teaching of St. Cyprian and the others picked it up from him (rather than it being of Apostolic origin due to Fathers independently teaching the same thing). And, furthermore, if you read Trent the way you do, then Trent rules out the existence of BoB.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #203 on:** June 04, 2014, 01:52:31 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Then you do not deny BOB unless. Before I answer your questions will you affirm or deny that you accept BOB?

I do not currently believe in BoB. I admit that there's more Patristic evidence for it than for BoD, but I do not think it conclusive, i.e. I don't think there's enough of it to prove a unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers. If you trace it, it appears to have its origins in the teaching of St. Cyprian and the others picked it up from him (rather than it being of Apostolic origin due to Fathers independently teaching the same thing). And, furthermore, if you read Trent the way you do, then Trent rules out the existence of BoB.

Then in effect you would go to Hell for Christ?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #204 on:** June 04, 2014, 01:56:03 PM »

What is you definition of "unanimous" in regards to how you use it in your previous post?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #205 on:** June 04, 2014, 02:21:05 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

What is you definition of "unanimous" in regards to how you use it in your previous post?

In that context, unanimous doesn't mean unopposed. If one Father held an opinion and no one else held the contrary, that wouldn't make it a "unanimous consensus of the Fathers". Of the hundreds and hundreds of Church Fathers, you would expect more than just about 7-8 (all of whom have direct ties to St. Cyprian) to hold it if in fact it was revealed truth. Conversely, even IF there are one or two who hold opposing opinions, that doesn't by itself make exclude a teaching from being "unanimous".

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #206 on:** June 04, 2014, 02:22:22 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Now that I've answered your question, please answer my questions. Yes or no answers only.

Question #1:
Is the Sacrament of Baptism necessary for salvation?

Question #2:
Can non-Catholics be saved?

Question #1

The Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation by Divine precept and by a necessity of means but not by intrinsic necessity. One must be baptized or at least have the desire for it, even if the desire is only implicit, in order to be in a position in which he can be saved.

Question #2

No one outside the Church can be saved. Only those within the Church, at least by desire, are in a position to where they can be saved. The Church we speak of is the Catholic Church, there is no other Church in which one can be saved. Is one within the Church by desire a Catholic? He is a Catholic by desire. It has to be an effective desire rather than a mere wish. Such a desire includes a supernatural faith and perfect charity and perfect charity is only obtained by one in a state of supernatural grace and supernatural grace can only be obtained within the Church.

I hope that helps.

These are the distinctions that Catholic theologians make without even having to think about it. They are the distinctions that Popes infallibly teach.

This is much different than how a Protestant would interpret the Bible. They do not make distinctions but make it fit what they already believe. This is very clear. We see the same thing with Catholics, who are already convinced of one thing and spin whatever is presented to them in a way that confirms to their preconceived ideas.

This can be avoided by trusting the Church's theologians more than yourself.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #207 on:** June 04, 2014, 02:24:10 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
What is you definition of "unanimous" in regards to how you use it in your previous post?

In that context, unanimous doesn't mean unopposed. If one Father held an opinion and no one else held the contrary, that wouldn't make it a "unanimous consensus of the Fathers". Of the hundreds and hundreds of Church Fathers, you would expect more than just about 7-8 (all of whom have direct ties to St. Cyprian) to hold it if in fact it was revealed truth. Conversely, even IF there are one or two who hold opposing opinions, that doesn't by itself make exclude a teaching from being "unanimous".

So you are not 100% sure that water is absolutely necessary in all instances. You are open to the contrary being true based upon your interpretation of what some Fathers taught?

You also would go to Hell rather than deny Christ?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #208 on:** June 04, 2014, 02:26:45 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Then in effect you would go to Hell for Christ?

It is not for me to decide whom God should save and whom He should not. Whether He saves or whether He does not save, glory to God, for whatever He does is good and just and merciful. That His Will be done, and not ours, is our only prayer. I would only ask for the gift of being able to love Him (and not hate Him) in hell. Hell is all that I deserve, and I have no right to expect or demand anything else from God ... but only beg for Him to grant me salvation in His Mercy.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #209 on:** June 04, 2014, 02:28:55 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Then in effect you would go to Hell for Christ?

It is not for me to decide whom God should save and whom He should not. Whether He saves or whether He does not save, glory to God, for whatever He does is good and just and merciful. That His Will be done, and not ours, is our only prayer. I would only ask for the gift of being able to love Him (and not hate Him) in hell. Hell is all that I deserve, and I have no right to expect or demand anything else from God ... but only beg for Him to grant me salvation in His Mercy.

There is hope for you my friend. Pray for me and be assured of my prayers.