Author Topic: Faith of Desire (Read 5252 times)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #20 on:** January 27, 2014, 10:03:04 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
No one claims it is possible to be saved apart from a supernatural faith and perfect charity.

But you are claiming that this supernatural faith and charity can be had by heretics, schismatics, Muslims, Jews, infidels, etc. ... as if it can be somehow infused only on the basis of right conscience and good will, yada yada yada.

So you argue that since the Church teaches BoD that heretics, schismatics, Muslims, Jews, infidels, pagans can be saved. This DESPITE the Church's dogmatic definitions to the contrary. And every authoritative passage cited by Ambrose refers only to CATECHUMENS.

It is in claming that heretics, schismatics, Mulsims, Jews, infidels, and pagans can be saved that you are in fact a heretic.

You seem to have missed what the Church teaches. Do you accept the possibility that a man can be saved apart from water?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #21 on:** January 27, 2014, 10:14:08 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

You seem to have missed what the Church teaches. Do you accept the possibility that a man can be saved apart from water?

You seem to have missed the entire stated intent of this thread. I am conceding, for the sake of argument, that the Church teaches BoD. That's precisely to prevent this topic from being derailed again.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #22 on:** January 27, 2014, 10:22:56 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
You seem to have missed what the Church teaches. Do you accept the possibility that a man can be saved apart from water?

You seem to have missed the entire stated intent of this thread. I am conceding, for the sake of argument, that the Church teaches BoD. That's precisely to prevent this topic from being derailed again.

It is so hard to get anyone to admit even that.

What do you think of the following quote from Monsignor Fenton:

Quote

[It is of course impossible to conciliate this use of the term soul with the expression "members of the soul of the Church." There are members of a body or of a society. There can be no members of the Holy Ghost. Furthermore the men and women in whom the Holy Ghost dwells through sanctifying grace do not constitute any social organization by themselves in this world. - Fenton]

Cantarella · « **Reply #23 on:** January 27, 2014, 10:44:45 AM »

Quote from: The Penny Catechism

1. That a man may be saved in any religion, provided he lives a good moral life according to the light he has/ possibility of salvation of those who live and die in a false religion - For me, I work with nearly 98% non-Catholics. With most, I have close connections with them and affection for them. Inside of me, there is an internal repugnance towards even thinking that they could go to hell. For the most part, I internally wish the opposite into hoping into believing that they will 'somehow be saved.' On top of that, some of these are my bosses and my fear of being ostracized to the point of losing 'influence' or fear of being a 'target'; has cooled any thought of me making any attempted conversion of them. Internally this has been a HUGE contradiction in me ~ Jesus's instructions to the 12 were to 'Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel...he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." Mk 16:15,16.

I think this is exactly what happens to the vast majority of BODers and modern Catholics, therefore the general reluctance to accept the de fide teaching of EENS as it is. Pure truth is unbearable for some.

crossbro · « **Reply #24 on:** January 27, 2014, 10:53:49 AM »

Quote from: Cantarella

As I had said before, the concept has gradually degenerated into a full grown heresy. Baptism of Desire has become a soft pillow for those modern relativists who prefer not to proselytize and play nice with everyone. BOD has served as an excuse to defend Ecuмenism and Universal Salvation, both erroneous ideas, born out of sentimental liberal theology.

This was not really a problem before, since the teaching of Catholic Tradition that no one can be saved who is ignorant of the Gospel was quite clear and maintained by most. But thanks to the growing modernism, the heretical theory of salvation for everyone, even members of false religions, became the belief of even priests in the latter half of nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

This has culminated in our situation today, in which almost 100% of people who claim to be “Catholics” believe that Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Protestants, etc. can be saved without converting. Nowadays, the spiritual aim of conversion, (which would be true charity towards neighborhood) is being overridden and totally eclipsed by purely humanitarian works thanks to this.

100% correct, and while BOD applies to catechumens it comes with the requirement of belief in God, perfect contrition, and a real desire for baptism.

This has degenerated into "Well, if some atheist would have known the truth he would have desired baptism therefore he gets a free ticket to heaven."

Then it becomes, "An atheist can go to heaven simply for being good."

Then,

"It does not matter what Church you go to."

Then,

"It does not matter what religion you are.'

Not necessarily in that order, but you get the picture.