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Author Topic: Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus  (Read 22135 times)

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Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2009, 09:36:11 AM »
Quote from: Catholic Martyr
That is an evolution of the heresy yes, but baptism of desire, being a proposition that is directly opposed to the Solemn Magisterial decrees of Holy Mother Church is the original heresy.


So, you are claiming that the Council of Trent was a heretical council?

Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2009, 10:33:10 AM »


Offline CM

Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2009, 10:38:47 PM »
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Catholic Martyr
That is an evolution of the heresy yes, but baptism of desire, being a proposition that is directly opposed to the Solemn Magisterial decrees of Holy Mother Church is the original heresy.


So, you are claiming that the Council of Trent was a heretical council?


No.  Why would you say that?

Offline CM

Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2009, 11:19:09 PM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth
So to sum up, there are six realities that must be borne in mind when reading the following quotes, so as to read them in the sense always and forever intended by the Church, and with the Mind of the Church, understanding them exactly as they were written, and not with the alien interpretation foisted upon them by the likes of Peter Dimond and Fr. Feeney:


Six REALITIES?  Let us examine these 'realities', by which you approach the dogmas of Holy Mother Church, and draw them into the light, and expose every facet of them for all to see.  And then we may proceed in determining whether they are indeed realities.

I propose to measure them against the dogmatic standards of the Church.

Quote from: Lover of Truth
1) Those passages referring to damnation of those outside the Church always carry a sense of "do not" and never "have not."


Please explain this one in greater detail before we can proceed to discuss it.  I am not quite sure I understand your assertion here.

Quote from: Lover of Truth
2) Those passages that make sweeping generalizations would naturally have to admit certain limited exceptions, as can be defended by other doctrines as applicable.


Really?  According to whom?  I'd like to see your argumentation, which posits an INFALLIBLE decree, in which a sweeping generalization is made and leaves room for no exceptions, can later understood in a sense different than what it conveys upon the first reading.

Do you believe that we may also understand a dogmatic decree that DOES NOT make a sweeping generalization as being capable of admit of exceptions as well? Why or why not?

And how does your statement not contradict the following dogma?

Quote from: Pope Pius IX, at the Vatican Council, session 3, chapter 4,
Hence, too, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by Holy mother Church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding.


Next:

Quote from: Lover of Truth
3) Those passages referring to saved souls can only be speaking of those who are in either Purgatory or Heaven, nowhere else.


Correct, obviously.  This is a dogmatic reality.

Quote from: Lover of Truth
4) Those passages referring to the Church as the only means of salvation mean that no other "church" can save, but do not limit the Church's methods for applying God's Grace to souls.


Which grace might you be referring to, O sly one?  Prevenient grace?  Sanctifying grace, perhaps?  Please do clarify this point.

Quote from: Lover of Truth
5) Those passages referring to the necessity to "abide" or "remain" or "continue" in the Church have no bearing on questions of BOB and BOD and entrance requirements since they speak only to those who are already in the Church Militant.


This is a very bizarre assertion.  How can you abide in something you have never entered?  Is entrance no longer a prerequisite to abiding therein?

Quote from: Lover of Truth
6) Those passages which speak of water baptism as being the only means of entering the Church are speaking of how to enter the Church Militant, the only one of the three levels of the Church which one can voluntarily join.


So you argue that a person can skip right from being a pagan in the state of original sin to being either in Purgatory or Heaven?

In other words, the person never voluntarily joined the Church Militant (even if they desired baptism), but they were just placed by God in the Church Suffering or the Church Triumphant?

I have more questions for you, but this will suffice for now.

Please respond.

Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus
« Reply #74 on: September 04, 2009, 06:50:39 AM »