Author Topic: Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus (Read 35586 times)

Caminus · « **Reply #20 on:** August 28, 2009, 02:55:04 PM »

It hasn't seemed to have occurred to you that God is not bound by his sacraments and as such can, if He so desires, supply for the effects outside of them under certain conditions. You seem to erroneously think that the mere possibility of such an occurence negates or contradicts the law itself. Thus, you implicitly deny the absolutely gratuitiousness of the supernatural order, by implying that God is not free to act in such a manner. For that is really what this debate is about, whether or not this CAN occur. By the "logic" of your argument, you'd also have to accuse God of "contradicting" the laws of nature when he temporarily suspends said laws while working a miracle. You'd decry Lazarus as an imposter for attempt to contravene the universal law of death.

Your mind is in utter confusion and you cease not the putrid condemnations of other catholics. You make me physically ill.

Caminus · « **Reply #21 on:** August 28, 2009, 02:59:08 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Quote from: Vladimir
That is actually quite to the contrary. They argue that infidels can enter the Church before death through extraordinary (and of course supernatural) means.

But they cannot. Yet the heretics refuse to accept it. Some of them even go as far as to say that explicit belief in Jesus Christ is not even necessary (invincible ignorance). Thus, objectively, they are trying to put non-Catholics in heaven.

Quite the contrary, fool, they refer to the subjective possibility of such a case. No one objectively puts a "non-catholic" qua "non-catholic" in heaven. You have to force ideas on people so you can unjustly condemn them like the Pharisees of old who through a mock trial unjustly condemned Jesus Christ.

Belloc · « **Reply #22 on:** August 28, 2009, 03:00:24 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

It hasn't seemed to have occurred to you that God is not bound by his sacraments and as such can, if He so desires, supply for the effects outside of them under certain conditions. You seem to erroneously think that the mere possibility of such an occurence negates or contradicts the law itself. Thus, you implicitly deny the absolutely gratuitiousness of the supernatural order, by implying that God is not free to act in such a manner. For that is really what this debate is about, whether or not this CAN occur. By the "logic" of your argument, you'd also have to accuse God of "contradicting" the laws of nature when he temporarily suspends said laws while working a miracle. You'd decry Lazarus as an imposter for attempt to contravene the universal law of death.

Your mind is in utter confusion and you cease not the putrid condemnations of other catholics. You make me physically ill.

Good points-yes, ultimately, God is in charge and will do what He pleases, to whom and when....save, condemn, punish,reward.........we are to exercise the 3 virtues, the greatest is charity (also known as love, though I prefer the word charity more)

Caminus · « **Reply #23 on:** August 28, 2009, 03:09:32 PM »

His argument amounts to implying that one would contradict the act of Redemption itself were one to suggest that God could have wrought the Redemption in another way. For if the mere possibility existed, then, by his warped logic, it would negate the actuality of the act itself.

He also doesn't seem to realize that, far from detracting from the sacrament of baptism, the doctrine regarding the desire for baptism actually affirms its necessity in that no man is justified without some kind of reference to the sacrament itself. The fact that God may supply for the effects doesn't affect its necessity as a means of regeneration. God supplies in both instances.

CM · « **Reply #24 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:37:10 AM »

PRIMER:

Pope Pius X, Lamentabili Sane, Condemning the Errors of the Modernists, #22: "The dogmas the Church holds out as revealed are not truths which have fallen from heaven. They are an interpretation of religious facts which the human mind has acquired by laborious effort." - CONDEMNED.

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council, Session 3, Chapter 4, ex cathedra: "Hence, too, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by Holy mother Church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding."

Any 'understanding' of the dogmatic decrees of the Holy Catholic Church, which in any way recedes from the objective sense of how it was declared IS HERESY. Otherwise you reduce the dogma of infallibility into a meaningless saying.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium."

Transgressors of these laws are MODERNISTS.