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Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: andysloan

To Cantarella:

What about this infallible dogmatic statement?


Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, ex cathedra: "In these words there is suggested a description of the justification of the impious, how there is a transition from that state in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of adoption as sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ our savior; indeed, this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, cannot take place without the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, as it is written: Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5)."

The passage above is actually dealing with Justification, not Salvation. They are different. One can be initially justified and then go and condemn oneself anyway. Justification is the very initial transition. Salvation is the end when finally one is inserted into Christ for ever. Justification occurs on earth. Salvation is our entrance to Heaven. The dogma defended is : Unless you are baptized in water and Holy Ghost you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven (Salvation).

Besides, in the mentioned passage, the Church is simply teaching what cannot be lacking for justification at this point, not what is sufficient for its attainment.  That is why this passage should not be used by BODers to defend their position. The Church is teaching here that Justification cannot be effected without the desire for Baptism.

This translation (to Justification) cannot take place without the laver (water) of regeneration or the desire to receive it. The Church is clearly not telling us at this point what will effect Justification (let alone Salvation), but rather stating a necessity (of desire) for Justification to occur.

Simply stating that an element (in this case, desire for Baptism) cannot be missing in order for something to happen (Justification) is NOT the same than stating that the element being present will be sufficient to effect that Justification.

Paul III wrote "...OR the desire...".  Not "and" the desire.  The implication is that justification may be obtained by one OR the other*-- when considering that all those who die in a justified state are saved, it then follows that those who die with the desire for baptism (provided that they are not in mortal sin) are saved.

The point is not that desire of baptism alone and in itself suffices to justify (which I don't think anyone has even argued) but that in so desiring baptism, one has removed an impediment to justification and, having met any and all other requirements for it, will be justified since his desire for baptism satisfies in lieu of being baptized with water.

*Obviously one who desires baptism is compelled to seek it; if he does not it is evident that he did not desire it and is therefore does not belong in our discussion.

Yes, what I wrote above takes into consideration the "OR" part. Still, the passage is dealing with the initial transition of Justification, not Salvation. When you say, "those who die in a justified state are saved, it then follows that those who die with the desire for baptism (provided that they are not in mortal sin) are saved". I don't agree with the "it follows" part because you still need to have the Sacrament of Baptism before dying in order to remit Original Sin, which in itself suffices for damnation. We are under the law of the New Testament in which the Sacraments (3 of them actually) are absolutely needed for Salvation.

The Council of Trent allows the distinction between the actual reception of Baptism and the desire to receive it because a man in the Old Testament for example, could be justified but not saved yet. He was justified by Faith in the Messiah to come and a strict fulfillment of God's commandments. When those who died in the state of justification in the Old Testament died, they did not go to Heaven. They went to the Limbo of The Just until Jesus in flesh and blood led them to Salvation and opened the gates of Heaven for them in Ascension day. Likewise, in the New Testament justification does not necessarily follow Salvation. There is still absolute need of the Sacraments. In that passage,The Church is not telling us at this point what will effect Justification (let alone Salvation), but simply stating a necessity (of desire) for Justification to occur.  

Justification can be attained by a person with the Catholic Faith together with at least a desire for the Sacraments. He cannot attain Salvation unless he receives the indispensable Sacraments though. This is because we are under the New Law of Salvation.

Which three sacraments are "absolutely necessary" for salvation?

You should probably consider what the words "absolutely" and "necessary" mean before you answer.  

The Catholic Church teaches that all those who die in a state of justification are saved.  You cannot deny this, and you should retract your denial of it.  I dare you to find a source that isn't Fr. Feeney to corroborate this belief.  

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

This is the exact understanding of John 3:5 that the Church has supplied


Everyone is on the same page except you.

An annotation?  :rolleyes:

Let us say that there has been indeed theological speculation (and even fallible Church teaching, let's concede) about Baptism of Desire / Blood. Do you think that back when these annotations were made (I have this same Bible version, this is XVI century, I believe, correct me if wrong) their authors could have possibly foresaw how Satan would pervert this teaching of Baptism of Desire for CATHECHUMENS? and blood for MARTYRS? into the abhorrent heresy of "invincible ignorance" we see nowadays, in which practically anyone not prone to mass murder can be saved?  through invisible ties to the only true Faith?

The devil, our eternal enemy is very clever and full of charm. Nowadays he has the guise of "friendlessness" "tolerance" and "peace among everyone" and so it has corrupted BOD and under the disguise of false Ecuмenism and sentimental Universal Salvation, has mobilized as an invisible, intangible influence, even within the Church, confusing and moving away souls from the only true religion, outside of which there is no possible salvation.

What you are doing is denying a truth because you see that truth distorted. You are condemning those who uphold that truth and assigning the distorted truth to them.

Invincible ignorance is not a doctrine, it is simply inculpable ignorance.

The truth is that you believe the Church is really an invisible entity of "true believers," those who see through the errors being taught by the Church Teaching.