Author Topic: Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire (Read 34000 times)

SJB · « **Reply #5 on:** March 18, 2014, 08:56:21 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

That's a heretical denial of the necessity of the Sacraments.

God's grace is not bound by the sacraments is a common teaching of the theologians. You are an idiot for calling it heretical.

bowler · « **Reply #6 on:** March 18, 2014, 09:36:10 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire

A Strawman thread!

The Saint Benedict Center is in full communion with Rome and the local diocese. The Church has not declared BOD in any shape or form a dogma, nor has it declared heretics anyone or any saint, doctor or priest who taught teach John 3:15 as it is written, including all the Saint Benedict centers .

It is only YOU Ambrose that by your own cojones declares them heretics.

And yet, you believe that anyone can be saved who has no explicit desire to be Catholic, baptized, nor belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity!

Your belief is oppose to the clear DOGMA of Florence and the 1600 year old Athanasian creed.

It does not phase you one iota that not one Doctor, Father, Saint, or Council taught your salvation without explicit belief Incarnation and the Trinity, nor explicit desire to be baptized or Catholic!

DOGMA:

Quote

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

If that dogma does not mean what it CLEARLY says, then words have no meaning. Moreover, not a Father, Saint, Doctor, or Council ever taught that anyone can be saved without belief in Christ and the real God, the Holy Trinity.

bowler · « **Reply #7 on:** March 18, 2014, 09:45:48 PM »

Quote

God's grace is not bound by the sacraments is a common teaching of the theologians.

=End Run (= disregard all dogmas, God's grace is not bound by the sacraments )

Quote from: bowler

From Fr. Ludwig Ott, a source frequently sighted by traditionalists here on CI:

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Fr. Ludwig Ott (b1906-d1985), 1952

Page 239
II. The Universality of Grace, sec. C, “ There is also the possibility that God, in an extraordinary manner, remits original sin to those children who die without baptism, and communicates grace to them, as His power is not limited by the Church’s means of grace. However, the possibility of such an extra-sacramental communication of grace cannot be proved.”

Since "God is not bound by the sacraments", then God can make Pope Francis a valid priest, bishop, pope, and the Novus Ordo priests and bishops and consecrations all valid.

Combine the term "implicit" and the theory that "God is not bound by the sacraments", and you can turn white into black. No dogma or teaching has any meaning. Oh, I forgot, that already happened, it's the conciliar church.

Cantarella · « **Reply #8 on:** March 19, 2014, 12:01:19 AM »

Here are some long - term effects of promoting the heresy of Invincible Ignorance via last minute Baptism of Desire:

If there is Salvation outside the Church (via last minute invisible Baptism of Desire), it will automatically follows that:

1. The pope is not infallible because the three popes who solemnly defined the dogma ex-cathedra were in error.

2. The Church has no ultimate authority and all dogmatic definitions are not infallible either and can be rejected or accepted at will. Fallible theologians supersede the Church's Divine appointed authority.

3. The Sacraments of the Church are not really necessary for salvation.

4. Priesthood to administer the Sacraments is not necessary either
since they are not only "invisible" but are available to everybody by "desire".

5. Neither an ordained clergy nor a hierarchical structure are necessary because the Church is now an invisible entity and membership by Baptism in the visible Church is not necessary for Salvation.

Why in the world would anyone want to become a Catholic and strive to be a good one if that, if this heresy of being part of the Church invisibly is what we are preaching? These are the ultimate consequences of BOD in the long run.

Stubborn · « **Reply #9 on:** March 19, 2014, 04:33:36 AM »

No, no, no Ambrose!

I challenged you to defend the necessity of the sacraments unto salvation - not the mythical anti-sacrament a BOD!

What were you thinking?

You are always proving me right - which, in this instance, is not what I actually want.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; ... let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Question: Who was the first one who ever thought to ask the question: "How many baptisms are there" anyway?

Ambrose, don't you remember this challenge?

Quote from: Stubborn

I am of the opinion that you and the other BODers will remain obstinately attached to your error for as long as you continue with your lex orandi, which is to mock and despise the necessity of the sacraments and the Church for the hope of salvation. As long as you keep repeating the same error, the error will remain the way you believe, the error is your lex credendi.

NOTE:
If you do not believe me, if you think I'm wrong, if you want to get it off your chest and really prove and expose to everyone exactly how ignorant of a person I really am, then please prove me completely wrong by starting and participating in a thread in which you do the strictly Catholic thing and actually defend the necessity of the sacraments for the hope of salvation.

I maintain that SJB or Ambrose or any BODer who clings to the belief that salvation without the sacrament is possible, will be both unwilling and unable to get themselves to even think of doing such a thing much less actually do it - it is not just *not* a part of a BODers lex credendi, doing such a thing is actually opposed to a BODers lex credendi.

This is the easiest way I can think of for you and other BODers to discover for yourselves and on your own that you cannot do the Catholic and outwardly defend, that which you inwardly deeply despise.

I've asked this of BODers 5 or 6 times now and so far, not even one of them has even acknowledged the challenge, but new threads trivializing the necessity of the sacraments are started by a BODers regularly.

It is just not a part of a BODer's lex credendi to do the Catholic thing and defend the necessity of the sacraments for the hope of salvation.

Now try again! This time do the Catholic thing and defend the necessity of the sacraments unto salvation!