It would be refreshing to find even a modicuм of sincerity and honesty among you BoDers, but I have not found any yet.

You won't even admit that all these quotes you pull out are referring to EXPLICIT BOD (of the catechumen, of someone who accepts and confesses the Catholic Faith).  When I point this out, I get a flurry of downthumbs but never responses.

You use BoD as cover for your heretical denial of EENS, just as the modernists used BoD to undermine EENS and bring us Vatican II.

St. Fulgentius was cited earlier as a proponent of BoD.  Let's look at what St. Fulgentius really taught.

Let no doubt shake our mind from this view; let no one say that a man is saved unless he comes to this bodily immersion; at any rate let us not say that he can be saved without the sacrament of baptism purely on the confession of faith. For he who believes and is baptized, will be saved. And as for that young man whom we know to have believed and confessed his faith: we maintain that it was through the sacrament of baptism that he was saved. If anyone is not baptized, not only in ignorance, but even knowingly, he can in no way be saved. For his path to salvation was through the confession, and salvation itself was in baptism. At his age, not only was confession without baptism of no avail: Baptism itself would be of no avail for salvation if he neither believed nor confessed. But God desired that his confession should avail for his salvation, since he preserved him in this life until the time of his holy regeneration. Thus he asked for the gift of holy regeneration as God desired; and so, since God desired it, God gave it. (St. Fulgentius, Ep. 12, 8, 19 = PL 65, 388)

So how is it that BoDers dishonestly claim that he taught BoD?

From that time at which our Savior said: "If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven ," no one can, without the Sacrament of Baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without Baptism pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal

So St. Fulgentius held that BoB was possible for those who confessed the Catholic faith and were "in the Catholic Church".

So, to summarize St. Fulgentius:

BoD -- REJECTED
BoB -- HELD FOR THOSE IN THE CHURCH

Yet the dishonest BoDers (including the incredibly deceitful Fr. Laisney) promote St. Fulgentius as a BoD advocate and and therefore as a promoter of the "TRUE INTERPRETATION OF EENS" (according to Laisney).

Really?

Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that not only all pagans but also all Jews and all heretics and schismatics who end this present life outside the Catholic Church are about to go into the eternal fire that was prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Yet I'm sure if you asked St. Fulgentius, he'd tell you, like Bishop Fellay, that the Hindu in Tibet can be saved, or like Archbishop Lefebvre, that people in various assorted religious can be saved without confessing the Catholic faith.

Read and ponder and imbibe these words of St. Fulgentius and his spirit, and then come back and tell me whether they're in the least bit compatible with your heretical ideas that non-Catholics can be saved.

You do not have the same faith as St. Fulgentius, or as any of the Fathers, or as any of the Doctors, but are in league with a flurry of modernist theologians beginning with the Illuminati-driven "Enlightenment" era of philosophical subjectivism.

Father Laisney the Liar:

Such is the case for the doctrine on baptism of desire ... It is found even before this millennium in the very early years of the Church without a single dissenting voice.

Exposed as a complete liar.  There were at least 4-5 Fathers who explicitly rejected BoD (including St. Fulgentius above).

Father Laisney the Liar:

Quote from: Father Laisney

Such is the case for the doctrine on baptism of desire ... It is found even before this millennium in the very early years of the Church without a single dissenting voice.

Exposed as a complete liar.  There were at least 4-5 Fathers who explicitly rejected BoD (including St. Fulgentius above).

Ladi, you have no source for what you believe, other than yourself. You are opposed to Catholics learning from approved catechisms and manuals, encouraging them to do their own theology from first sources. Your system leads the unsuspecting into error, or directly influences those who give your rumblings some weight when they have ZERO weight.

Your posting here is unorthodox and you should be banned. Matthew is wrong for allowing you to teach others your errors here.

Anyone who denies that souls have been saved by baptism of desire and blood, is guilty of objective mortal sin, because he denies a proposition that is theologically certain, inextricably bound up with Catholic doctrine. Funnily enough, inculpable ignorance alone would excuse you of subjective guilt. Yet you don't believe in it, and make no allowance for it in your judgments, and it is characteristic of divine Justice to judge you by the same standard with which you judged others.

You propagators of this error should cease and desist, and humbly confess the Catholic doctrine.

Quote from: Cantarella

As for the baptized who die before the age of reason who cannot make an act of faith, here is the Church Infallible teaching:

Pope Innocent III Apostoli Letter on Baptism

So now Pope Innocent is infallible in some letters and not in others?

Quote from: Innocent II

To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of holy mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine's "City of God" * where among other things it is written, "Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes." Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian * where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers' and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned.

This is the teaching that the Magisterium has approved. Irrelevant to what was held before, at least after the letter, no one is permitted to hold the contrary. And in fact no one did, all Catholic schools, all theologians, all Saints and Doctors after this point in time teach that there are souls saved by baptism of desire.

Quote from: Innocent III

the Jew mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another. . . . If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith

Anyone who denies that souls are saved by baptism of desire and blood is guilty of mortal sin.

No. An implicit faith is not sufficient. A person that has reached the age of reason, is obliged to profess an explicit belief in the Holy Trinity, The Incarnation, and the Catholic Faith before they die. This truth is necessary to believe for Salvation as a necessity of means.

Pope Eugene IV Exultate Deo ex cathedra:
"Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all else to hld the Catholic Faith: unless each one preserve this whole and entire, he will without a doubt perish in eternity...then he defines the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, and the necessity to believe in these truths...This is the Catholic Faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

Again, an implicit faith / desire is not enough and furthermore, we are obliged to believe this truth. There is the necessity to explicitly believe and profess the Catholic Faith. Popes such as Pius X, Clement XI, Pius IX all have reaffirm and re-stated this dogma. BODers have fallen pray of liberal ideas and false notions concerning ecuмenism and universal salvation. Watered down, lukewarm Catholics are the real enemies of the Faith and a real thread for the purity of it.

Your posting here is unorthodox and you should be banned. Matthew is wrong for allowing you to teach others your errors here.

I "teach" no one; I am in no way part of the Ecclesia Docens.

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

It would be a logical fallacy to apply this to the topic of the thread, Baptism of Desire, as you have done in your example.

No, it applies because he reads it as a BOTH ... AND rather than your (mis)interpreted EITHER ... OR.

As for the other Innocent III quote, see my posts where that's completely discredited.

You are missing the point; The Sacrament of Baptism requires (as does any of the Sacraments) matter and form - in this case water and spoken words.  Here is the point, the Sacrament of Baptism AND Baptism of Desire are two different things, one is a Sacrament, the other is not.  The requirements for a Sacrament, matter and form, do not apply to Baptism of Desire (although, speculatively, in the case of Baptism of Desire, perfect contrition and an untimely death might appear as prerequisites).

Baptism of "Desire" does not remit Original Sin. One of the graces of the Sacrament of Baptism is the remission of Original Sin. No soul in Heaven is stained with Sin, Original or actual. If Baptism of Desire is not the real Sacrament as BODers concede, then what it is?

The Sacrament of Baptism provides the mark placed upon the soul which actually give it a share in the Divine nature and royal priesthood of Christ Our Lord. Baptism makes us part of the Church, of the mystical Body of Christ.  The desire for Baptism simply cannot provide this.  See the infallible teaching below:

Pope Pius XII
By the waters of Baptism, by the general title of Christian they are made members of the Mystical Body of Christ, the priest, and by the "character" as it were, imprinted upon their souls, they are assigned to divine worship; and so they participate in the priesthood of Christ himself, according to their condition...

There is only ONE Baptism for the remission of sins. The Church solemnly condemns those who turn water into a metaphor.

Pope Pius IX
Let us hold most firmly that our Catholic doctrine, there is ONE GOD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM. To try and inquire further in unlawful.