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Author Topic: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation  (Read 5041 times)

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Offline SolHero

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  • Hi,
    I'm very much on board with "Extra Eclesiam Nulla Salus" and I think Catholics need to always keep that in mind, to gain confidence in our Catholic teachings and traditions. Specially when confronted with protestants who want to challenge our dogmas. Can you let me know what you think?

    When it comes to non-catholics getting prayers answered I can reason it as Matthew 5:45 "That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust." So to me, they obtained graces from God just like rain falls on the just and the unjust. Is that a good interpretation or reasoning?

    The other thing I'm struggling with is people who claim to receive words from God. I often hear from people from prayer groups that this person or that person got this message from God or from Our Lady asking us to do x, y and z. I'm extremely careful with that and remind people, at most, it is private revelation and I am not required to believe in those messages as part of my Catholic faith. But then I hear from protestants claiming that God told him/her this or that. So as with the reasoning above, rain/graces from God can fall on any of us but saying that a protestant received a message from God is just unacceptable to me and quite honestly, it upsets me. In fact, the reason why I'm asking for your opinions is because someone (Catholic too), told be to be prepared because Jim Bakker (protestant personality) said that God told him [insert apocalyptical message here]. What is the traditional way of dealing with this type of "private revelation" to non-catholics?

    I feel like many people who profess to be Catholics, do not believe in EENS because they act surprise when I mention it. To me, not believing in EENS opens the door to allow ideas to come in that chip away at someone's faith in the Catholic church.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #1 on: November 17, 2022, 04:29:31 PM »
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  • I feel like many people who profess to be Catholics, do not believe in EENS because they act surprise when I mention it. To me, not believing in EENS opens the door to allow ideas to come in that chip away at someone's faith in the Catholic church.
    Yeah, that's why the Church is in the state it is today. So many Catholics started ignoring the most important of dogmas and so indifferentism creeped in, followed by Modernism, only to emerge publicly as the Vatican II sect.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #2 on: November 19, 2022, 06:06:10 AM »
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  • Hi,
    I'm very much on board with "Extra Eclesiam Nulla Salus" and I think Catholics need to always keep that in mind, to gain confidence in our Catholic teachings and traditions. Specially when confronted with protestants who want to challenge our dogmas. Can you let me know what you think?
    One piece of advice Fr. Wathen gives when dealing with Prots who are only questioning so as to discredit and not actually seeking answers, is to not answer their questions directly, rather answer a question with a question. They ask "why do you worship Mary?" for example. Reply with: "Why do you ask me that, who told you we worship Mary?"

    And when they start quoting the Bible, tell them you will not participate because their view of the Bible is not our view of the Bible and bring up teachings from the history and traditions of the Church - two things they do not have.

    Here are a few youtube videos worth watching on this subject as I could not do it any justice in my above 2 paragraphs.



    Quote
    When it comes to non-catholics getting prayers answered I can reason it as Matthew 5:45 "That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust." So to me, they obtained graces from God just like rain falls on the just and the unjust. Is that a good interpretation or reasoning?

    The other thing I'm struggling with is people who claim to receive words from God. I often hear from people from prayer groups that this person or that person got this message from God or from Our Lady asking us to do x, y and z. I'm extremely careful with that and remind people, at most, it is private revelation and I am not required to believe in those messages as part of my Catholic faith. But then I hear from protestants claiming that God told him/her this or that. So as with the reasoning above, rain/graces from God can fall on any of us but saying that a protestant received a message from God is just unacceptable to me and quite honestly, it upsets me. In fact, the reason why I'm asking for your opinions is because someone (Catholic too), told be to be prepared because Jim Bakker (protestant personality) said that God told him [insert apocalyptical message here]. What is the traditional way of dealing with this type of "private revelation" to non-catholics?
    God may (or may not) answer their prayers, but the only graces possible are those which lead them to the Church, to become members of the Church and only IF He sees they will cooperate with those graces. Remember, the value of graces is immeasurable and God does not waste them on anyone that He knows will reject them.

    In one of his talks, Fr. Hesse insists if you think you're getting messages as you describe above to ignore them, or to talk back to them and be as absolutely mean as possible demanding them to stop, because they are not from God, God does not work that way. He says do this and if they are from God, which they won't be, but if they are then you will know right away.


    Quote
    I feel like many people who profess to be Catholics, do not believe in EENS because they act surprise when I mention it. To me, not believing in EENS opens the door to allow ideas to come in that chip away at someone's faith in the Catholic church.
    IMO, the percentage of Catholics who believe in EENS is likened to St. Louis Marie de Montfort's teaching on the fewness of the saved, on that subject he says:
    "The number of the elect is so small — so small — that, were we to know how small it is, we would faint away with grief: one here and there, scattered up and down the world."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #3 on: November 19, 2022, 06:19:08 AM »
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  • Hi,
    I'm very much on board with "Extra Eclesiam Nulla Salus" and I think Catholics need to always keep that in mind, to gain confidence in our Catholic teachings and traditions. Specially when confronted with protestants who want to challenge our dogmas. Can you let me know what you think?

    When it comes to non-catholics getting prayers answered I can reason it as Matthew 5:45 "That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust." So to me, they obtained graces from God just like rain falls on the just and the unjust. Is that a good interpretation or reasoning?

    The other thing I'm struggling with is people who claim to receive words from God. I often hear from people from prayer groups that this person or that person got this message from God or from Our Lady asking us to do x, y and z. I'm extremely careful with that and remind people, at most, it is private revelation and I am not required to believe in those messages as part of my Catholic faith. But then I hear from protestants claiming that God told him/her this or that. So as with the reasoning above, rain/graces from God can fall on any of us but saying that a protestant received a message from God is just unacceptable to me and quite honestly, it upsets me. In fact, the reason why I'm asking for your opinions is because someone (Catholic too), told be to be prepared because Jim Bakker (protestant personality) said that God told him [insert apocalyptical message here]. What is the traditional way of dealing with this type of "private revelation" to non-catholics?

    I feel like many people who profess to be Catholics, do not believe in EENS because they act surprise when I mention it. To me, not believing in EENS opens the door to allow ideas to come in that chip away at someone's faith in the Catholic church.
    I think that there are many varying degrees of belief in what "Extra Eccelsiam Nulla Sulus" exactly means.   Not having a normal Church hierarchy to explain what exactly the Church believes is part of the reason why there are SO MANY arguments going on about it these days.

    Most solid traditional Catholics who have been such for a long time do believe in the dogma because it has always been a teaching of the Church.  Now...  Those who are new to the traditional Faith or who have come from the novus ordo would likely be confused at first.  I am not talking about Feeneyism but a balanced opinion of the dogma.

    As for protestants and non-Catholics receiving revelations...  It is possible for God and the saints to appear to non-believers.  Yet, historically, when they have it was to reveal to them the Faith and help them to become Catholic.  Any other "revelation" for non-Catholics should be considered questionable.  

    It is important to remember that the devil and his minions can disguise themselves as angels of light and that at times even the saints have been confused by such revelations.  If I had to guess, I would say that probably most of the protestant/non-Catholic "revelations" are actually caused by the enemies of the Church in order to try and confuse people and keep them in darkness.

    Hope that helps clarify a little and set your mind at peace.  :cowboy:
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #4 on: November 19, 2022, 10:35:51 AM »
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  • IMO, the percentage of Catholics who believe in EENS is likened to St. Louis Marie de Montfort's teaching on the fewness of the saved, on that subject he says:
    "The number of the elect is so small — so small — that, were we to know how small it is, we would faint away with grief: one here and there, scattered up and down the world."

    Stubborn,

    Is that quote from True Devotion?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #5 on: November 19, 2022, 10:37:24 AM »
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  • I think that there are many varying degrees of belief in what "Extra Eccelsiam Nulla Sulus" exactly means.  Not having a normal Church hierarchy to explain what exactly the Church believes is part of the reason why there are SO MANY arguments going on about it these days.

    Most solid traditional Catholics who have been such for a long time do believe in the dogma because it has always been a teaching of the Church.  Now...  Those who are new to the traditional Faith or who have come from the novus ordo would likely be confused at first.  I am not talking about Feeneyism but a balanced opinion of the dogma.

    As for protestants and non-Catholics receiving revelations...  It is possible for God and the saints to appear to non-believers.  Yet, historically, when they have it was to reveal to them the Faith and help them to become Catholic.  Any other "revelation" for non-Catholics should be considered questionable. 

    It is important to remember that the devil and his minions can disguise themselves as angels of light and that at times even the saints have been confused by such revelations.  If I had to guess, I would say that probably most of the protestant/non-Catholic "revelations" are actually caused by the enemies of the Church in order to try and confuse people and keep them in darkness.

    Hope that helps clarify a little and set your mind at peace.  :cowboy:

    So you basically rambled for 5 paragraphs claming that nobody really knows what the very simple expression "No Salvation Outside the Church" actually means and then asserted that this would help "clarify"?  This illustrates the problem.  That dogma is about as simple as it gets, and a child can understand it.  If you are not a Catholic, you can't go to heaven.  Period.

    Due to a combination of certain Catholics not liking this dogma and the enemies of the Church needing to undermine it (as it was THE dogma that stood in the way of their dismantling of the Church), suddenly it was said that you needed to be a "theologian" and to write 3 pages to explain what it REALLY means.  It has gotten to the point now that even so-called "Traditional Catholics" assert (based on this misapplied dictum that we must believe dogmas as the Church believes them), that if someone asks you whether a non-Catholic can be saved and you respond with a simple "No" you are immediately suspect of heresy, that greatest heresy of our times, "Feeneyism" (putting Nestorianism, Arianism, and Lutheranism combined all to shame).  Catholics, including simple lay people, are expected to pay lipservice to the dogma, and then to immediately append a "... but" at the end and then proceeding to rattle off 3 pages of Clintonesque distinctions so that by the end the dogma ("as the Church understands it") at best means absolutely nothing (reducing to a tautology where if you're saved that means your Catholic) and at worst allegedly means the OPPOSITE of what it actually says (thus making a mockery of all Catholic teaching).  It's amazing that the Church defined something in a single sentence that actually requires a full-length 3-page essay to "explain".  What an oversight by the Church not to have properly defined the dogma but to throw out there something that has resulted in nothing but confusion ... as you assert above.

    Bill Clinton would be proud of the rambling nonsensical incoherent and scandalous "explanations" (i.e. explaining away of) EENS that Trad Catholics begin to spout the minute they're asked about this dogma.  "There is no salvation outside the Church?"  That depends on what the meaning of "is" is, and "Church" and "salvation" ... as if these terms have not been adequately defined and well understood since the beginning.  It's a shame that after 2,000 years of Church, we don't even know what "Church" is.

    How should a Catholic understand and answer the question "Is there salvation outside the Church?"
    Quote
    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    Holy Office under St. Pius X, 1907:
    Quote
    “Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

    And yet we have the founder of the Society of St. Pius X asserting that those who died as infidels can be saved, and we have 99% of "Traditional Catholic" clergy asserting the same.  In fact, if you dare to answer this question as St. Pius X directed, without offering three pages of distinctions, you're immediately suspect of heresy and in some places will be denied the Sacraments.

    If my children ask me whether our Protestant or Muslim neighbor who recently passed away could have been saved, the answer is simply, "No, only Catholics can be saved."  Period.  End of sentence.  End of thought.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #6 on: November 19, 2022, 11:15:12 AM »
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  • As for "revelations" to non-Catholics, God obviously CAN do as He pleases, for purposes known only to Him, usually with a view toward granting some kind of actual grace toward their conversion.

    Generally speaking, however, 99% of all claims to private revelations are fraudulent, being of human origin, while 90% of the remaining 1% are of diabolical origin.  Obviously I don't have actual stats, so this is just my generalization.  Human fraud can be either deliberate, conscious, and intentional (with a view toward some gain -- fame or fortune, the respect and admiration of others) or else an active imagination combined with an inability to discern between the workings of their own imagination and reality.  Some people with active imaginations ... it's little wonder that the vast majority of "private revelation" claims come from women ... decide that what was really the product of their own imagination actually came from God.  St. Theresa of Avila, when she was told of a nun having "visions" would order that more meat be given in her diet.  True "private revelations" are very rare.

    God avoids granting private revelations in a way that might give the impression that He approves of something He does not.  Thus, He does not grant them to non-Catholics, as this might lead to the impression that God favors and approves of non-Catholics and works through them.  God might work IN them, toward their conversion, but He will not work THROUGH them.

    Unfortunately, even some of the Traditional Bishops have succuмbed to excessive credulity with regard to private revelations, Bishop Williamson to "Dawn Marie," Valtorta, Akita, and Garabandal, and Bishop Fellay (and quite a number of priests) to this Rossiniere (Cornaz).  Archbishop Thuc fell for Palmar de Troya (led there by a seminary professor from Econe).

    But our attitude, following the mind of the Church, must be that of extreme skepticism.  Whenever presented with claims of private revelations or miracles, the Church's default attitude is that they are not genuine, and the VERY FIRST criterion the Church applies is that of sound doctrine  If something runs afoul of Catholic doctrine, it is immediately rejected without any further consideration.  If the doctrine is sound, then the investigation proceeds to evaluationg the virtues of the visionary (whether he be Catholic, demonstrate solid virtue, especially with regard to obedience).  Church will never even consider revelations to a non-Catholic, as those are non-starters right out of the gate.

    So we too apply Catholic theology to test these private revelations and never modify Catholic theology based on the claims of private revelations or based on miracles.  Thus we have Bishop Williamson growing increasingly "soft" regarding the New Mass, as "undisputed Eucharistic miracles" ("just look them up on the internet", he says :facepalm:), at first asserting these prove validity and then that the NOM cannot be "completely" condemned.

    Nonsense.  Satan can simulate just about any "miracle" with very little exertion on his part.  So the ones that cannot be written off as either due to natural causes (including human fraud), for him these cannot be "disputed" ... as of the devil cannot also simulate "miracles".  It would require little effort on the devil's part to introduce some blood or human heart muscle onto the scene, replacing some of the bread with flesh and blood.  We know that the New Mass is a bastard rite that displeases God and harms souls.  God would never work a "miracle" that might possibly give the impression that the New Mass pleases Him ... which is precisel how most would take such "miracles".  Well, if God deigned to work a "miracle" in the NOM, it must be valid AND it must be OK for me to go to the NOM, since it can't displease Him too much if I go.  Why would God encourage people to assist that this offensive Protestantized bastard rite of "Mass" that has blasphemously replaced the Catholic Offertory with тαℓмυdic filth?

    To take this one step farther, however, these "miracles", if not due to human fraud but rather to diabolical activity, would actually desmosnstrate the INVALIDITY of the NOM, because God would not allow the devil to tamper with the actual valid Blessed Sacrament.

    So, no, God does not grant private revelations to non-Catholics except with a view to their conversion.  You'll see that many / most of their purported "messages" from God actually confirm their Protestant views ... and therefore must be rejected out of hand as either made-up or diabolical.  God would never approve or or condone Protestantism.  As I said, we apply Catholic doctrine to test revelations (those alleged by non-Catholics are to be rejected out of hand).  So we reject Prot revelations rather than to start questioning whether Protestantism is REALLY wrong and offensive to God ... and questioning EENS dogma.

    Those who easily fall prey to private revelations, miracles, and other such allegedly-preternatural phenomena demonstrate a weakness of faith and a lack of conviction in their principles.  We don't need this garbage.  We have our faith and the teaching of the Church.  We don't need some "revelation" to a Traditional Catholic, like a Dawn Marie or Rossiniere, to demonstrate that Traditional Catholicism pleases God and is the right path through this crisis, and that the NOM is offensive to God.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #7 on: November 19, 2022, 11:39:17 AM »
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  • So you basically rambled for 5 paragraphs claming that nobody really knows what the very simple expression "No Salvation Outside the Church" actually means and then asserted that this would help "clarify"?  This illustrates the problem.  That dogma is about as simple as it gets, and a child can understand it.  If you are not a Catholic, you can't go to heaven.  Period.

    Due to a combination of certain Catholics not liking this dogma and the enemies of the Church needing to undermine it (as it was THE dogma that stood in the way of their dismantling of the Church), suddenly it was said that you needed to be a "theologian" and to write 3 pages to explain what it REALLY means.  It has gotten to the point now that even so-called "Traditional Catholics" assert (based on this misapplied dictum that we must believe dogmas as the Church believes them), that if someone asks you whether a non-Catholic can be saved and you respond with a simple "No" you are immediately suspect of heresy, that greatest heresy of our times, "Feeneyism" (putting Nestorianism, Arianism, and Lutheranism combined all to shame).  Catholics, including simple lay people, are expected to pay lipservice to the dogma, and then to immediately append a "... but" at the end and then proceeding to rattle off 3 pages of Clintonesque distinctions so that by the end the dogma ("as the Church understands it") at best means absolutely nothing (reducing to a tautology where if you're saved that means your Catholic) and at worst allegedly means the OPPOSITE of what it actually says (thus making a mockery of all Catholic teaching).  It's amazing that the Church defined something in a single sentence that actually requires a full-length 3-page essay to "explain".  What an oversight by the Church not to have properly defined the dogma but to throw out there something that has resulted in nothing but confusion ... as you assert above.

    Bill Clinton would be proud of the rambling nonsensical incoherent and scandalous "explanations" (i.e. explaining away of) EENS that Trad Catholics begin to spout the minute they're asked about this dogma.  "There is no salvation outside the Church?"  That depends on what the meaning of "is" is, and "Church" and "salvation" ... as if these terms have not been adequately defined and well understood since the beginning.  It's a shame that after 2,000 years of Church, we don't even know what "Church" is.

    How should a Catholic understand and answer the question "Is there salvation outside the Church?"
    Holy Office under St. Pius X, 1907:
    And yet we have the founder of the Society of St. Pius X asserting that those who died as infidels can be saved, and we have 99% of "Traditional Catholic" clergy asserting the same.  In fact, if you dare to answer this question as St. Pius X directed, without offering three pages of distinctions, you're immediately suspect of heresy and in some places will be denied the Sacraments.

    If my children ask me whether our Protestant or Muslim neighbor who recently passed away could have been saved, the answer is simply, "No, only Catholics can be saved."  Period.  End of sentence.  End of thought.

    (We have to do it manually :facepalm: )


    Not totally criticizing your content but your tone... boy.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline rosarytrad

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #8 on: November 19, 2022, 12:12:06 PM »
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  • Stubborn,

    Is that quote from True Devotion?
    I’m not Stubborn(obviously) but this quote is from Friends of The Cross by St. Louis Marie De Montfort. It’s a short read and very good!
    The mercies of the Lord I will sing for ever. - Ps. 88:2a
    St. Anthony of Padua, pray for us.
    St. John of God, pray for us.
    Our Lady of Guadalupe, mystical rose, make intercession for Holy Church.

    Offline rosarytrad

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #9 on: November 19, 2022, 12:24:16 PM »
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  • Hi,
    I'm very much on board with "Extra Eclesiam Nulla Salus" and I think Catholics need to always keep that in mind, to gain confidence in our Catholic teachings and traditions. Specially when confronted with protestants who want to challenge our dogmas. Can you let me know what you think?

    When it comes to non-catholics getting prayers answered I can reason it as Matthew 5:45 "That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust." So to me, they obtained graces from God just like rain falls on the just and the unjust. Is that a good interpretation or reasoning?

    The other thing I'm struggling with is people who claim to receive words from God. I often hear from people from prayer groups that this person or that person got this message from God or from Our Lady asking us to do x, y and z. I'm extremely careful with that and remind people, at most, it is private revelation and I am not required to believe in those messages as part of my Catholic faith. But then I hear from protestants claiming that God told him/her this or that. So as with the reasoning above, rain/graces from God can fall on any of us but saying that a protestant received a message from God is just unacceptable to me and quite honestly, it upsets me. In fact, the reason why I'm asking for your opinions is because someone (Catholic too), told be to be prepared because Jim Bakker (protestant personality) said that God told him [insert apocalyptical message here]. What is the traditional way of dealing with this type of "private revelation" to non-catholics?

    I feel like many people who profess to be Catholics, do not believe in EENS because they act surprise when I mention it. To me, not believing in EENS opens the door to allow ideas to come in that chip away at someone's faith in the Catholic church.
    I’m a catechumen, and this is one of the questions I asked my priest. When it comes to non-Catholic prayers being answered the short answer is this: No. 

    I’m not in sanctifying grace, so I’m not in friendship with God. BUT, God IS pleased with my prayers. 

    He has continued to give me graces to persevere in making it home. I have been a Catechumen for over a year now and I can tell you that if I didn’t pray I wouldn’t have made it this far. So in a certain sense He HAS answered my prayers.

    God’s Ways are not our ways. 
    The mercies of the Lord I will sing for ever. - Ps. 88:2a
    St. Anthony of Padua, pray for us.
    St. John of God, pray for us.
    Our Lady of Guadalupe, mystical rose, make intercession for Holy Church.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #10 on: November 19, 2022, 12:34:55 PM »
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  • I’m not Stubborn(obviously) but this quote is from Friends of The Cross by St. Louis Marie De Montfort. It’s a short read and very good!

    Thank you.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #11 on: November 19, 2022, 12:51:29 PM »
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  • I’m a catechumen, and this is one of the questions I asked my priest. When it comes to non-Catholic prayers being answered the short answer is this: No.

    Indeed, our faith really is simple, consisting of "Yes yes" and "No no" as Our Lord taught, and the faithful are not expected to be theologians to believe any dogma of the Church.  We are not expected to ... nor should we ... expound for 3 pages about what the Church "REALLY" means about there being no salvation outside the Church.  We believe in, adhere to, and accept the "short answer" ... as you refer to it.

    And what purpose does it serve or what fruit does it bear to equivocate so much about the dogma?  It does nothing more than to undermine belief in the dogma.  It doesn't lead to some gnostic "true understanding" but rather to disbelief.

    Traditional Catholics can't seem to get their minds around the fact that the New Vatican II ecclesiology is simply the natural extension of belief that non-Catholics can be saved (which ironically many / most Traditional Catholics believe).

    MAJOR:  There's no salvation outside the Church.
    MINOR:  Non-Catholics (Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims) can be saved.
    CONCLUSION:  Non-Catholics (Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims) can be inside the Church.

    So if the Church can now include not only Catholics but also non-Catholics (Protestants, Jєωs, and Muslims), you've got V2 ecclesiology in a nutshell.  Trad Catholics (rightly) call out this V2 ecclesiology as heretical and yet ironically believe in the same ecclesiology if they simply think about it for 30 seconds.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #12 on: November 19, 2022, 12:58:33 PM »
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  • Not totally criticizing your content but your tone... boy.

    Describe the "tone" to which you object ... boy.

    There not a word of what I wrote that isn't true, and the post to which I respond that was meant to "clarify" ... claimed to do so while asserting that nobody really knows what EES dogma means.

    I think you don't LIKE the the tone because the criticism applies to you and to 90% of Traditional Catholics who think of and approach EENS dogma precisely as I described.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #13 on: November 19, 2022, 05:30:12 PM »
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  • Describe the "tone" to which you object ... boy.

    There not a word of what I wrote that isn't true, and the post to which I respond that was meant to "clarify" ... claimed to do so while asserting that nobody really knows what EES dogma means.

    I think you don't LIKE the the tone because the criticism applies to you and to 90% of Traditional Catholics who think of and approach EENS dogma precisely as I described.


    Your condescending tone:  

    "So you basically rambled for 5 paragraphs claiming that nobody really knows what the very simple expression "No Salvation Outside the Church..."
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: EENS - non-Catholic prayers answered and claims of private revelation
    « Reply #14 on: November 19, 2022, 06:13:57 PM »
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  • So you basically rambled for 5 paragraphs claming that nobody really knows what the very simple expression "No Salvation Outside the Church" actually means and then asserted that this would help "clarify"?  This illustrates the problem.  That dogma is about as simple as it gets, and a child can understand it.  If you are not a Catholic, you can't go to heaven.  Period.

    I was not trying to make this into a Feeneyite argument.  EENS is definitely a Church dogma.  Feeneyism isn't.
    It is an opinion about defining how the Church exact understood the dogma.

    The OP said that most Catholics he met did not believe in EENS.  I was trying to express in the first couple of paragraphs that almost all long standing traditional Catholics I know believe in the dogma but that some newcomers might be confused about it because they may have been tainted by previous novus ordo or protestant beliefs.  That is all I was trying to say in the first couple paragraphs.  

    The OP's question was mainly about whether non-Catholics can receive revelations from God.  That was the part I meant to comment and help "clarify" concerning and say that it is possible but not likely.

    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/