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Author Topic: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance  (Read 2887 times)

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Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
« on: October 15, 2022, 03:10:53 PM »
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  • I am looking for as many Saints, Catechisms and whatever can be found that teaches explicitly or implicitly someone can be saved without faith in Jesus Christ.

    I am well aware of Singulari Quadam, Singulari Quidem and Quanto Conficiamur and have concluded that they are not teaching people can be saved in ignorance of the true faith.

    One of the reasons why is because such a teaching cannot just appear out of nowhere in the 19th century.

    The other reason is because it seems to me the meaning of the texts is simply that those who honestly seek God will find Him in this life and the other meaning would contradict defined dogma.

    I attached a book listing Sources for BoB and BoD because of which I still believe in both, however, until I see at least some Saints, theologians and Catechisms teaching invincible ignorance I cannot even consider it.

    In the entire book there is only one quote from Theologia Moralis (a hard read) and the Cushing decree (which is basically worthless).


    Quote
    Theologia Moralis, Lib.III, Cap 1, Q. 2:

    2. Is it required by a necessity of means or of precept to believe explicitly in the mysteries of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation after the promulgation of the gospel?

    The first opinion and more common and held as more probable teaches belief is by necessity of means; Sanch. in Dec. lib. 2. c. 2. n. 8. Valent. 2. 2. d. 1. qu. 2. p. 4. Molina 1. part. qu. 1. a. 1 d. 2. Cont. Tourn. de praeceptis Decal. cap. 1. art. 1. §. 2. concl. 1. Juven. t. 6. diss. 4. a. 3. Antoine de virt. theol. cap. 1. qu. 2. Wigandt tr. 7. ex. 2. de fide n. 22. Concina t. 1. diss. 1. de fide cap. 8. n. 7. cuм Ledesma, Serra, Prado, etc. Also Salm. tr. 21. c. 2. punct. 2. n. 15. Cuniliat. tr. 4. de 1. Dec. praec. c. 1. §. 2. et Ronc. tr. 6. c. 2. But the last three say that in rare cases it may happen that one can be justified by implicit faith only...

    But the second opinion that is also sufficiently probable says by necessity of precept all must explicitly believe in the mysteries. However, for necessity of means it is sufficient to implicitly believe in the mysteries.
    So Dominicus Soto (in 4. sentent. t. 1. d. 5. qu. un. art. 2. concl. 2.) where he says: Even though the precept of explicit faith (in the Trinity and Incarnation) absolutely obliges the whole world, yet there also are many who are invincibly ignorant [of the mysteries] from which the obligation excuses.
    Franciscus Sylvius (t. 3. in 2. 2. qu. 2. art. 7. and 8. concl. 6.) writes: After the promulgation of the gospel explicit faith in the Incarnation is necessary for all for salvation by a necessity of precept, and also (that it is probable) a necessity of means…
    Card. Gotti (Theol. t. 2. tr. 9. qu. 2. d. 4. §. 1. n. 2.) says: In my judgment the opinion which denies that explicit faith in Christ and in the Trinity is so necessary that no one can be justified without it is very probable. And he adds that Scotus holds this opinion…
    Elbel. (t. 1. conferent. 1. n. 17.) writes today that this opinion is held by notables. DD. Castropal. part. 2. tr. 4. d. 1. p. 9. Viva in Prop. 64 damn. ab Innocent. XI. n. 10, Sporer. tr. 11. cap. 11. sect. 11. §. 4. n. 9. Laym. lib. 2. tr. 1. cap. 8. n. 5. who teach this is not less probable than the first, with Richard. Medin. Vega, Sa, and Turriano. Card. de Lugo, de fide d. 12. n. 91. calls the first speculatively probable, but defends this second view at length and in absolute terms as more probable, with Javell, Zumel, and Suarez d. 12. sect. 4. n. 10. the writings of Lugo likewise seem to be the opinion of St. Thomas 3. part. qu. 69. a. 4. ad 2. where the Doctor says: Before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit.

    Wherefore, argues Lugo, just as Cornelius freely obtained grace by implicit faith, so even one can obtain the same in a place where the gospel is not perfectly promulgated. He will be able in such a place to obtain the same who is invincibly ignorant of the mysteries in a place where the gospel has not been sufficiently promulgated. They say it is repugnant to the divine goodness and providence to damn invincibly ignorant adults who live uprightly in accordance with the light of nature whereas Acts 10:35 says, “But in every nation he that feareth him and worketh justice is acceptable to him.” They respond that even though all the Scriptures and Holy Fathers’ testimonies oppose this opinion, their opinion is more easily explained by necessity of precept, or because ordinarily almost none are saved without explicit faith in the mysteries, because after the promulgation of the gospel almost no one labors out of invincible ignorance. Or that, says Lugo, they can be explained by implicit faith or explained by desire…


    In the end, the quote actually supports the view that men cannot be saved without faith in Jesus Christ and it most certainly states such a view is allowed.

    In summary: I have yet to come across a single authority teaching salvation in ignorance and can't see why anyone would believe in this.

    Therefore I would like to see some other quotes provided if they exist.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #1 on: October 15, 2022, 04:23:38 PM »
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  • It basically did crop up in the 19th century. My hypothesis is that it arose out of the neo-Scholasticism combined with the religious indifferentism that also arose in the late 18th/early 19th century.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline St Giles

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #2 on: October 15, 2022, 04:55:32 PM »
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  • There should be no quotes or evidence to support it due to the danger it could cause to people's salvation by causing religious indifferentism.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #3 on: October 16, 2022, 05:42:12 AM »
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  • People who believe in salvation in ignorance of Christ and His Church: do you admit this doctrine popped up in the 19th century or do you have quotes before that?

    St Alphonsus wrote in the 18th century that the majority opinion is one cannot be saved if he dies ignorant of the mysteries of faith. When has this changed?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #4 on: October 16, 2022, 07:14:46 AM »
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  • There should be no quotes or evidence to support it due to the danger it could cause to people's salvation by causing religious indifferentism.

    Yes, I've said this before.  At the very least, such theological speculation can do a lot of harm, and no good.  Sometimes these theologians, St. Alphonsus included, just like to think out loud, considering their work merely an academic exercise, with theologians as their audience.  In books written for the faithful, St. Alphonsus repeatedly stated without qualification that those born among the infidels were ALL lost.

    If I were pope, even if short of condemning BoD, at least initially until a study could be conducted, I would ban under pain of mortal sin any speculation regarding the possible salvation of people who are not essentially card-carrying Catholics.


    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #5 on: October 17, 2022, 12:02:54 PM »
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  • Instead of finding saints supporting salvation without faith in Christ I found the opposite:

    Quote
    “Since your Highness [King John III of Portugal] well understands that God will require of you an account of the salvation of so many nations, who are ready to follow the better path if any one will show them it, but meanwhile, for want of a teacher, lie in blind darkness, and the filth of the most grievous sins, offending their Creator, and casting their own souls headlong into the misery of eternal death.”[8]
    Here again we see St. Francis Xavier eliminating any idea of salvation for “the invincibly ignorant,” excluding from salvation even those ignorant souls whom he thought would embrace the Faith if they were taught it!


    The full article has many more quotes that annihilate the ignorant teaching.




    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #6 on: October 17, 2022, 12:17:13 PM »
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  • Question for believers in salvation without belief in Christ:

    I assume you acknowledge unbaptized infants go to Hell (limbo). At what point does an infant mature enough to have an "implicit baptism of desire".

    If someone is a "vegetable", intellectually akin to an infant, is he capable of an "implicit baptism of desire"?
    If yes, why not an infant?

    If no, how is a mental barrier to receiving baptism any more just than a physical barrier?

    It seems that salvation in ignorance doesn't even ameliorate the supposed problem it is trying to solve.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #7 on: October 17, 2022, 12:28:58 PM »
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  • Instead of finding saints supporting salvation without faith in Christ I found the opposite:
    Here again we see St. Francis Xavier eliminating any idea of salvation for “the invincibly ignorant,” excluding from salvation even those ignorant souls whom he thought would embrace the Faith if they were taught it!


    The full article has many more quotes that annihilate the ignorant teaching.

    To me, St. Francix Xavier or St. Isaac Jogues carry a lot more weight than some theologian (as great as he might be) sitting behind a desk thinking.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #8 on: October 17, 2022, 12:42:54 PM »
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  • Everyone has to admit that ignorance cannot be salvific, but merely exculpatory.  To hold that exculpation can be salvific in and of itself is actually the very definition of the Pelagian heresy.

    So the only thing invincible ignorance means is that there's no obstacle placed in the way of God's grace by way of a culpable ignorance.

    This is all that Pius IX was teaching in those much-abused passages.  To say otherwise would be to make him a Pelagian heretic.

    So, once we rule out Pelagianism, the conversation turns to what is the minimum amount of explicit faith required for supernatural faith and therefore for salvation.  In those without the use of reason (infants and others like them), the Sacrament of Baptism can infuse the supernatural virtue of faith without any explicit act of the intellect.

    For all others, some explicit act of the intellect is required to make a supernatural act of faith.  Dispute is whether one must believe explicitly at least in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation (with the rest being able to be implicit) or else it suffices to believe in a God Who rewards the good and punishes the wicked.

    Former has all of Catholic authority behind it.  It was believed unanimously by the Church Fathers, expressed in the Athanasian Creed, and taught / believed by all for the first 1500 years of Church history.  Around that time a Franciscan and some Jesuits came up with "Rewarder God" theory ... reacting (emotionally) to the discovery of the New World, with people wondering how God would allow all those to be lost.  St. Francis Xavier and St. Isaac Jogues answer that for them (as per above).

    At some point, the Holy Office rejected a request to baptize those who believed only in a Rewader God, and insisted that they must believe at least those "mysteries of faith that are necessary by necessity of means for salvation".  Vatican I taught that supernatural faith requires knowledge of mysteries that can ONLY be known through Revelation (that rules out belief in a Rewarder God sufficing, since as Vatican I also taught, those can be known with certainty by reason).  St. Pius X also taught about how certain types of ignorance (ignorance of the explicit mysteries) are required for salvation ... so that explicitly guts the Pelagian interpretation of Pius IX.

    There's no support anywhere in the Magisterium for Rewarder God theory, and it's been explicitly rejected by the Holy Office and implicitly by Vatican I.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #9 on: October 17, 2022, 01:01:57 PM »
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  • St. Alphonsus was making his statements before the OUM was defined at Vatican I.  Otherwise, he would have rejected Rewarder God theory as a heretical novelty.  If something that was taught unanimously and explicitly by all Catholics for 1500 years does not constitute an infallible dogmatic teaching from the OUM, then there's no such thing.  Unfortunately, St. Alphonsus seemed to have this excessive admiration of de Lugo (one of those Jesuit innovators), and ended up incorrectly saying that this is a tenable (albeit less probable) opinion.  It is in no wise tenable, and St. Alphonsus just got that wrong.  And evidently St. Alphonsus was not aware of the Holy Office decision that ruled this out, or alternatively didn't believe that the teaching embedded in the Holy Office decree was 100% binding.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #10 on: October 17, 2022, 01:25:43 PM »
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  • Instead of finding saints supporting salvation without faith in Christ I found the opposite:
    Here again we see St. Francis Xavier eliminating any idea of salvation for “the invincibly ignorant,” excluding from salvation even those ignorant souls whom he thought would embrace the Faith if they were taught it!
    You pretty much said it all in the OP when you said: "...those who honestly seek God will find Him in this life."

    Invincible ignorance will not be used as an excuse among people who have the capacity to reason. Our Lord said in Mat 16:9 that not believing in Him, in His Church, is a sin. No disclaimers, no exemptions of any sort, He said it's a sin. To die in that sin will put one in hell. In Mat 7:23 He said He will say: "I never knew you, depart from me you that work iniquity."

    He says those who choose to remain ignorant are iniquitous, not virtuous.


      
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline BonifaceSVIII

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #11 on: October 17, 2022, 10:54:29 PM »
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  • I find it interesting that toward the middle of the 20th century even basic spirituality was maligned as Jansenism by no less a figure than Fr. Connell, CSSR who edited the 1949 Baltimore Catechism 3 and taught the BOB/BOD nonsense.  A moralist and son of St. Alphonsus, another authority invoked for the BOB/BOD nonsense.  Funny that it should be moralists-teachers of the Law-from whom we learn Dogma not by what is true, but by what isn't necessarily sinful to hold.  It was Our Lord who was constantly refuting the moralists of his day.  Just seems like an interesting parallel.

    Offline BonifaceSVIII

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #12 on: October 17, 2022, 11:03:28 PM »
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  • Offline CoffeeEveryDay

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    Re: LF Sources of Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #13 on: October 18, 2022, 02:38:58 PM »
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  • There should be no quotes or evidence to support it due to the danger it could cause to people's salvation by causing religious indifferentism.
    Yes. Invincible ignorance is a form of denial of belief in God. If you do not accept God, no matter where you are, you are damned and nothing can be said against that.