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Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 15212 times)

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Offline Stanley N

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Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #390 on: February 20, 2020, 08:36:23 PM »
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  • Now the only question I have for you is, why do you do that rather than simply understanding it in the context he taught it?
    This isn't personal, you must realize. What my views are not at issue here.

    The anti BOD arguments I've seen here are so trivial, and have been so often addressed, that I think some of you just don't understand the opposition. Outside some very liberal ideas, Pre-V2 BOD had no problem whatsoever with the decree from the council of Florence, and no problem with EENS. What I'm trying to do is help you at least understand that.

    Can you not read that passage - yes, in context - in the way a holder of BOD would?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #391 on: February 20, 2020, 08:45:59 PM »
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  • Quote
    Can you not read that passage - yes, in context - in the way a holder of BOD would?
    Stanley, how does one who is invincibly ignorant of the Faith (and by extension, baptism), desire it?  


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #392 on: February 21, 2020, 05:11:58 AM »
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  • This isn't personal, you must realize. What my views are not at issue here.

    The anti BOD arguments I've seen here are so trivial, and have been so often addressed, that I think some of you just don't understand the opposition. Outside some very liberal ideas, Pre-V2 BOD had no problem whatsoever with the decree from the council of Florence, and no problem with EENS. What I'm trying to do is help you at least understand that.
    I agree the arguments are tired and old, and I understand the view of this whole matter from the perspective of the opposition, that it is puzzling in that they either do not see the obvious contradiction that a BOD is to the dogma EENS as well as other teachings of the Church and other pertinent points of faith, or, they willfully reject the dogma and the other points of faith in order to cling to a BOD - all the while insisting they are doing no such thing, or insisting they do so because, of all things, that's what the Church teaches.


    Can you not read that passage - yes, in context - in the way a holder of BOD would?
    I do read it in context and explained what it means when read in context - because I do understand quite clearly that the BODers not only do not read it in context, they absolutely refuse to read it in context.

    The only possible way to understand the italicized text as him saying that for the invincibly ignorant, there is salvation outside of the Church at all, is to lift the text you italicized completely out of context, just as if the two explicit affirmations citing EENS which that text is sandwiched between does not exist. Once taken out of context, one must then deliberately mistranslate it to say salvation is certain, or all but certain for the invincibly ignorant - as if it is a built-in and automatic exception to the dogma EENS that the pope is teaching us about.  




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #393 on: February 21, 2020, 06:25:07 AM »
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  • Look, I'm tired of the anti-EENSers hiding behind BoD.  This discussion is not about BoD.  It's about whether those lacking supernatural Catholic faith can be saved.  If someone wants to theorize that a catechumen who dies before Baptism can be saved, they can go right ahead.  What's at issue is the claim that infidels (Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc.), heretics, and schismatics can be saved.  That is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION of defined  dogma.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #394 on: February 21, 2020, 08:38:49 AM »
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  • Quote
    Can you not read that passage - yes, in context - in the way a holder of BOD would?
    Stanley, your problem is that you're not reading that entire section through the lens of Trent.  Trent clearly taught what is required in preparation for baptism, and in preparation for justification - all of these requirements also apply in order to receive BOD.
    .
    You're reading Piux IX through the lens of modernism.  This is where you fall into Pelagianism.  Of all the various mentions of BOD (saints, popes, councils), Trent is the highest authority which mentions it.  So if you ignore Trent's explanation of who BOD applies to, you're going to be led into error by the many modernist/heretical ideals which have tried to (and have been mostly successful in) watering down Trent.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #395 on: February 21, 2020, 10:14:35 AM »
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  • The Pius IX quote seems to be about adult limbo. If he meant that those who are invincibly ignorant but virtuous would just be converted, he'd have said so. Instead, he said that those who are invincibly ignorant but follow the natural law will not suffer eternal punishment. That's about as directly referring to limbo as you can get. 

    Quote
    Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.
    It quite clearly says here that they attain eternal life by observing natural law and its precepts. Not that they are converted in return for that. Once again, he's referring to these people as the invincibly ignorant - if they converted they would no longer be ignorant at all and the main descriptor which he is using to describe them would no longer be relevant, so it makes no sense whatsoever that he would neglect to mention that they would be converted. He does however mention that they are "ready to obey God" - which seems to refer to the idea that they must believe in a "God that rewards".

    Anyway, the fact that this quote is purely fallible aside, it seems twisting his words to read them as being about conversion. He'd surely have said as much.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #396 on: February 21, 2020, 10:29:17 AM »
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  • The Pius IX quote seems to be about adult limbo. If he meant that those who are invincibly ignorant but virtuous would just be converted, he'd have said so. Instead, he said that those who are invincibly ignorant but follow the natural law will not suffer eternal punishment. That's about as directly referring to limbo as you can get.
    It quite clearly says here that they attain eternal life by observing natural law and its precepts. Not that they are converted in return for that. Once again, he's referring to these people as the invincibly ignorant - if they converted they would no longer be ignorant at all and the main descriptor which he is using to describe them would no longer be relevant, so it makes no sense whatsoever that he would neglect to mention that they would be converted. He does however mention that they are "ready to obey God" - which seems to refer to the idea that they must believe in a "God that rewards".

    Anyway, the fact that this quote is purely fallible aside, it seems twisting his words to read them as being about conversion. He'd surely have said as much.

    Did you not see this part?:  " by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace".

    They must be enlightened from their ignorance.  Someone who is ignorant of the truths necessary for supernatural faith ... cannot have supernatural faith.  To claim that someone can be saved by the exercise of natural virtue alone ... without being enlightened with supernatural faith is both heretical on its own and heretical because it's implicit Pelagianism.  Your interpretation would make a heretic of Pius IX.

    This teaching is almost word for word the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas that those such as these can be saved ... because God will either directly enLIGHTEN them regarding the truths that must be known for salvation or else will send a preacher to them.  In no way can they be saved without said enlightenment, as per Pius IX's "by the efficacious virtue of divine light".

    Father Feeney wrote a lengthy article about how Pius IX learned of how people were interpreting this quote and was shocked.

    I'm so weary of the armchair theology, the Protestant attitude that we grab a couples line out of context without the proper understanding of its meaning, as interpreted by the Church, and draw all manner of conclusions from it, including heretical ones.  The only difference is that the Prots only recognize one font of Revelation, whereas Catholics know that there are two.  But apart from that, the mentality is identical.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #397 on: February 21, 2020, 01:31:25 PM »
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  • Did you not see this part?:  " by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace".

    They must be enlightened from their ignorance.  Someone who is ignorant of the truths necessary for supernatural faith ... cannot have supernatural faith.  To claim that someone can be saved by the exercise of natural virtue alone ... without being enlightened with supernatural faith is both heretical on its own and heretical because it's implicit Pelagianism.  Your interpretation would make a heretic of Pius IX.

    This teaching is almost word for word the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas that those such as these can be saved ... because God will either directly enLIGHTEN them regarding the truths that must be known for salvation or else will send a preacher to them.  In no way can they be saved without said enlightenment, as per Pius IX's "by the efficacious virtue of divine light".

    Father Feeney wrote a lengthy article about how Pius IX learned of how people were interpreting this quote and was shocked.

    I'm so weary of the armchair theology, the Protestant attitude that we grab a couples line out of context without the proper understanding of its meaning, as interpreted by the Church, and draw all manner of conclusions from it, including heretical ones.  The only difference is that the Prots only recognize one font of Revelation, whereas Catholics know that there are two.  But apart from that, the mentality is identical.
    If it would make a Pelagian out of him, it certainly makes a Pelagian out of Bishop Williamson. Will you pick up the phone or will I? 


    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #398 on: February 21, 2020, 02:18:52 PM »
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  • This website claims that BOD is a dogma of the Church, and that it does not apply only to catechumens. They quote from many different sources, including Councils and Doctors. I find all of this quite confusing. Can anyone help me figure out the truth behind these claims? 

    http://www.baptismofdesire.com/


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #399 on: February 21, 2020, 02:30:27 PM »
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  • This website claims that BOD is a dogma of the Church, and that it does not apply only to catechumens. They quote from many different sources, including Councils and Doctors. I find all of this quite confusing. Can anyone help me figure out the truth behind these claims?

    http://www.baptismofdesire.com/
    The owner of that site posted here in the past, suffice to say as is the case with that website, any yahoo can create a website and claim whatever they want.
    Pick out the items that claim to be dogma and post those here if you would like help figuring it out and we'd be happy to help!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #400 on: February 21, 2020, 03:58:37 PM »
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  • Pick out the items that claim to be dogma and post those here if you would like help figuring it out and we'd be happy to help!
    Thanks. Here are two that I find particularly troubling: 
    Letter of the Holy Office to Archbishop Cushing of Boston (Directly approved by Pope Pius XII, August 8, 1949)Canon Law Digest, Vol III, 1953, pg 525, Canon 1324 (Dangers to the Faith) (Excerpts): "In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circuмstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (<Denzinger>, nn. 797, 807). The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
    However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, <On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ> (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.
    But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Heb. 11:6)." 


    St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church (18th century)Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96: "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'" 



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #401 on: February 21, 2020, 04:47:59 PM »
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  • Thanks. Here are two that I find particularly troubling:
    Letter of the Holy Office to Archbishop Cushing of Boston (Directly approved by Pope Pius XII, August 8, 1949): Canon Law Digest, Vol III, 1953, pg 525, Canon 1324 (Dangers to the Faith) (Excerpts):
     1) "In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circuмstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (<Denzinger>, nn. 797, 807).
    2) The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

    3) However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, <On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ> (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.

    4) But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Heb. 11:6)."
    The above is not a dogma, but any way:

    1) Note that the letter does not say that one attains salvation via "desire and longing." The letter rightly says that desire and longing are helps to salvation, no one disputes this.

    2) This is obvious error because the Church is not a general help to salvation, it is the only way to salvation. Here the dogma is denied.

    3) Again note the letter does not say invincible ignorant people can be saved, it also distinguishes and acknowledges the difference between "those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire".

    4) No one disputes this.


     
    St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church (18th century): Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96: "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

    The above is not dogma either, here we have contradictory teachings from the same Church Father:

    Quote
    Taken from: An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.

    "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)." - St. Apphonsus

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Merry

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #402 on: February 21, 2020, 05:46:45 PM »
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  • EXTRA ECCLESIAM – Baptism of Water, Blood, Desire

    Let's look briefly again at the 3 infallible definitions regarding No Salvation Outside the Church –
     
     #1There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.”
     (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
     
     #2 “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
     
     #3 “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
     
     A few talking points follow in their regard –
     
     With dogma, one starts THERE, or WITH IT – and works out accordingly. Dogma is not the handmaid of theory, or some previously-argued theology or, as we see in our age, simply ignored or denigrated to liberal interpretation.
     
     The No Salvation doctrine never needed defining previous to the years seen above, as until then it was understood that the Church held and taught such accordingly. As princes and people began to question and lose respect for the papacy, and depreciate the Church, definitions were forthcoming from the Holy Ghost.
     
     And notice the rise in specificity with each.  They become increasingly more exacting – and not to be misunderstood.
     
     Also note the particular years in which these pronouncements were made. One wonders how St. Thomas (d. 1274), who held baptism of desire, would have thusly termed his works if he lived and studied after Definition 2 (1302) and 3 (1441) were made. Surely it is to be hoped – if not assumed - that he would have submitted as a Catholic and as a preacher and teacher, and dropped any “desire” notion he otherwise propounded. It is allowed to hope that, as there is a similar turmoil in our day on the issue of salvation, baptism – and even justification – that the Church in happier, future days, may define with further clarity on the issue.
     
     
    The original version of the Catechism of the Council of Trent - call it the Latin version - has NO MENTION of either “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire”! These phrases did not appear in Trent catechism copies until the late 1800s.  
     
     Further, this Council defined: If anyone say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and thus distort those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost (he cannot enter into the kingdom of God)” (Jn. 3:5), let him be anathema. 
    (Session VII – Canon 2)  
     
     We are therefore obliged to believe this.

     
     As for the Catechism of St. Pius X, or the Baltimore Catechism for that matter, or bad copies of Trent especially - they do not have the same authority as definitions of the Church – or of the actual, defining Council of Trent’s promulgations (the original, untouched account of the actions of the Council of Trent).
     
     We do not learn our theology directly from the Fathers or Doctors, any more than we learn our religion directly from the Bible. We learn our religion directly from the Church through her Magisterium which is guided and protected by the Holy Ghost. As Queen Isabella once said to her confessor as he attempted to answer a question she had presented to him: “Father, I do not want to know what the Fathers said, good as they were.  I want to know what the Church says.”

    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #403 on: February 21, 2020, 06:20:33 PM »
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  • Besides that, you reject the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas.  If there were a well disposed soul, say in the year 400 in the Americas, living in a jungle, if that person had the proper dispositions, God would either by an internal inspiration communicate to the soul that which must be believed or else, even miraculously, send someone to preach the truth.  Are you not aware of the travels of Mary of Agreda to the Americas?  This teaching of St. Thomas is based on the undisputed Catholic teaching that SOME THINGS MUST BE EXPLICITLY BELIEVED in order to have supernatural faith.  No Catholic theologian has ever disputed this (until Bergoglio started babbling about how atheists could be saved).  The fact that you question this tells me everything I need to know about your position.  You're basically a Pelagian, man.
    Fascinating. 

    According to you, the bolded part is the teaching of St. Thomas.

    Yet what I said was the same thing that you claim I reject! Is St. Thomas also basically a Pelagian!?

    You apparently think explicit faith in some doctrines is necessary. Well, God provides what is necessary for salvation as stated above. So if that person in the wilderness cooperates with the graces God provides, we should hold that God would also provide some way to know the required doctrines, whether that be through internal revelation or external teaching, including some miracle like a saint bilocating to the person.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #404 on: February 21, 2020, 09:27:47 PM »
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  • ... that it is puzzling in that they either do not see the obvious contradiction that a BOD is to the dogma EENS as well as other teachings of the Church and other pertinent points of faith, or, ...
    You say there is an obvious contradiction. Is there really?

    Perhaps the contradiction is only apparent, due to a misunderstanding of BOD and/or EENS? Nearly all pre-V2 theologians didn't see a contradiction and accepted both BOD and EENS. And these included clergy with actual training in theology, like Abp Lefebvre and Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange.

    Could you try looking at the passage from Pius IX without assuming there's a contradiction? What does it say, then? And you shouldn't neglect the context - it is important to understanding what it says from the BOD perspective.