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Author Topic: CCC and the SVC on the Dogmas of EENS, necessity of faith, and BOD.  (Read 836 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • What does the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Second Vatican Council teach on BOD and EENS? Discuss on this thread.

    Lumen Gentium, Light to the Nations: "14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

    They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart."(12*) All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

    Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own." https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/docuмents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

    Ad Gentes, On the Missionary Activity of the Church: "7. This missionary activity derives its reason from the will of God, "who wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, Himself a man, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim. 2:45), "neither is there salvation in any other" (Acts 4:12). Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it."(17) Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the Church (1 Cor. 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel. And hence missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity." http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/docuмents/vat-ii_decree_19651207_ad-gentes_en.html

    Catechism of the Catholic Church 161, On the Necessity of Faith: Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/161.htm

    CCC 846-848. On the Dogma of EENS and the Magisterium's understanding: "Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

    847 Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
    848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

    https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: CCC and the SVC on the Dogmas of EENS, necessity of faith, and BOD.
    « Reply #1 on: February 13, 2020, 04:52:10 AM »
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  • 1) It would be good to see it all in one place, there's much missing there from Vatican II concerning the salvation of non-Catholics. Vatican II is not infallible, moreover, if it is, then it is not Catholic. We've had all the CLEAR dogmas on EENS for at least 500+ years, so we do not need to know what a non-dogmatic, non-infallible, ambiguous, modernist, progressivist Vatican II has to say.

    2) Here is are two interesting quotes which follow each other and confirms what all strict EENSers have always said, that no one can be inculpable ignorant (invincible ignorant) before God, for He enlightens all men who come into the world. So, the whole idea that anyone is unaware of the Catholic Church is impossible, same as God does not take the life of a catechumen that was preordained to be baptized. :

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    Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it. Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him....



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CCC and the SVC on the Dogmas of EENS, necessity of faith, and BOD.
    « Reply #2 on: February 14, 2020, 09:53:01 AM »
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  • Vatican II scandalously reformulates EENS dogma.  What used to be "no salvation outside the Church" becomes no salvation for those outside the Church who are aware that it's the true Church and refuse to enter it.  So, what is that, a few handfuls of Satanists?

    Unfortunately, the implicit corollary is heretical:  those outside the Church who are not aware that it's the true Church can be saved, i.e. some outside the Church CAN be saved.

    Now, is this heretical implied corollary explicitly stated here?  No.  Technically speaking, it's a true statement that those who are aware that the Church is the true Church and refuse to enter it cannot be saved.

    So ... the deLugo formulation is also scandalous.

    Council of Florence:  "Jews, heretics, schismatics cannot be saved"
    deLugo:  "Jews, heretics, shismatics ... can be saved"

    It is absolutely scandalous and harmful to faith to word-for-word contradict a dogmatic definition.

    Seriously, deLugo, could not have found a way to articulate his position without doing this?

    At least say something like, "there are some people who are materially Jєωιѕн but are formally Catholic" or some other distinction like that.  You HAVE TO SAY that these people are actually Catholics and are within the Church.

    According to this theory, there are some who merely appear to be Jews but are really (unbeknownst even to themselves) Catholics.  This, in a nutshell, is in fact Karl Rahner's "Anonymous Christianity".  These Jews themselves will perhaps be more surprised than anyone else to come to the realization when they die that they were actually Catholics the entire time.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: CCC and the SVC on the Dogmas of EENS, necessity of faith, and BOD.
    « Reply #3 on: February 24, 2020, 12:10:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: LaTr
    It would be good to see it all in one place, there's much missing there from Vatican II
    You have it summarized in the CCC #161 and then #846-#848 especially, as cited above. Read #161 again, "Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation". Now, read #848, "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men." What do they together say? That if someone is invincibly ignorant of Christ, God will lead that person, in ways known to Himself, to belief in Christ, so as to be saved. Thus, such a person will not die invincibly ignorant, but as a Christian, and be saved.

    You quoted: "those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it. Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him..." Yes, same thing.

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    So, what is that, a few handfuls of Satanists
    Incorrect. It refers to all who are knowingly or stubbornly separated from the Church, as for e.g. formal heretics, formal schismatics, who've rejected the Catholic Church, and positive infidels who've rejected Christ the Lord, are known to be. For, the sin of heresy, or of schism, or of infidelity, requires the consent of the intellect and the will. Hence, the dogma says those guilty of those mortal sins shall die outside the Church and be lost. It is very clear when you properly distinguish material from formal heresy and/or schism, and positive/negative infidelity.

    Thus, St. Augustine said of those in material heresy, "such men are not to be accounted heretics". Hence, when we are taught "heretics cannot be saved", the faithful Catholic understands - formal heretics are necessarily lost. Material heretics can be saved, because of II and BOD/PC. Thus we read also in the Baltimore Catechism approved by Pope Leo XIII.

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    Technically speaking, it's a true statement that those who are aware that the Church is the true Church and refuse to enter it cannot be saved.

    It's also found in the Baltimore Catechism and in the Holy Office Decree on the subject. It's further the true explanation of the Decree of Florence. St. Augustine himself had made a similar statement that formal heretics stubbornly separated from the Catholic Church cannot be saved, even if they shed blood for Christ (for they are in mortal sin of formal heresy, without the repentance and remission of which no other sin is remitted), but also explained to us that some separated persons are in good faith, and thus are not to be counted heretics.

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    Seriously, deLugo, could not have found a way to articulate his position without doing this?
    Have you actually read His Eminence Cardinal John De Lugo's writings on the subject? You should; it'll be informative, even if you don't agree with him. Cardinal John De Lugo says such persons will be counted with the Christians in the sight of God. He mentions 3 opinions.

    Here's a statement from 5 excellent Catholic Bishops, Cardinals and Theologians I've been promoting for a while now that beautifully explicates the true doctrine on the necessity of faith in Christ for salvation well: [IV] "After the institution of the New and Everlasting Covenant in Jesus Christ, no one may be saved by obedience to the law of Moses alone without faith in Christ as true God and the only Savior of humankind (see Rom 3:28; Gal 2:16)."

    It also correctly describes the Authentic Catholic Ecuмenism of Return: "True ecuмenism intends that non-Catholics should enter that unity which the Catholic Church already indestructibly possesses in virtue of the prayer of Christ, always heard by His Father, “that they may be one” (John 17:11), and which she professes in the Symbol of Faith, “I believe in one Church.” Ecuмenism, therefore, may not legitimately have for its goal the establishment of a Church that does not yet exist."

    From: https://onepeterfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Declaration_Truths_Errors_final_version_clean.pdf