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Author Topic: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans  (Read 9834 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
« Reply #105 on: August 08, 2019, 12:18:45 PM »
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  • Well there is the debate. You believe the catechism can be wrong, and they can. Yet you doubt the catechism writers could have made such a blunder. And we both agree on this. The debate enters because you try to justify two contradicting teachings whereas I say that was no blunder, I say that even if it were added on good faith, it was put in there on purpose and has mislead many.

    There are some things in the otherwise excellent Baltimore Catechism that need correcting.

    So I am asking you out right, Scripture says: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism", the question is, how many kinds of baptisms are there? (if you don't answer with the obvious answer, then the debate goes on) that's really all there is to it.
    Hold on, your argument is that they did this on purpose?

    My problem with this is that the logic seems similar to the Protestant "one mediator" argument.  If a fine distinction can be used in the latter case, it can be used in the former case as well.

    I believe the answer to your question is that there's one baptism, and three different ways of receiving it, or at least, I believe that's the pro BOD answer.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #106 on: August 08, 2019, 12:21:28 PM »
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    On the one hand, no, catechisms are definitely not infallible.  They can be wrong.

    On the other hand, I doubt the catechism writers were so stupid as to have missed an argument as obvious as you point out here.

    It's because the catechism writers have elevated the theological opinions of saints such as St Alphonsus to a status of "de fide", just like Sean does.  Such questions which are not settled should not be in the catechism at all, until the Church decides the matter clearly. 
    .
    But because most want to (their personal desire, not based on doctrine) believe that their non-Catholic friends and family have a chance to be saved, and because they can't humanly understand the mysteries of Divine Providence (which is none of us can, so why are they trying?) and how God knows who will or won't accept His graces...because of all of this, they accept the theological OPINION of BOD as a doctrine and put it into the catechism.  It's an example of liberalism.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #107 on: August 08, 2019, 12:31:16 PM »
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  • It's because the catechism writers have elevated the theological opinions of saints such as St Alphonsus to a status of "de fide", just like Sean does.  Such questions which are not settled should not be in the catechism at all, until the Church decides the matter clearly.
    .
    But because most want to (their personal desire, not based on doctrine) believe that their non-Catholic friends and family have a chance to be saved, and because they can't humanly understand the mysteries of Divine Providence (which is none of us can, so why are they trying?) and how God knows who will or won't accept His graces...because of all of this, they accept the theological OPINION of BOD as a doctrine and put it into the catechism.  It's an example of liberalism.
    Well I doubt St Alphonsus was just completely ignorant that "one faith, one Lord, one baptism" obviously refutes the idea of BOD.  I can't reiterate enough  that *that particular argument* exactly resembles the kinds of dichotomies I've seen Protestants use with scripture to try to refute Catholicism.  One really basic one is "Oh, Rome says Mary is Mediatrix but the Bible says Christ is the only mediator so WE WIN."  I could easily, easily think of others. Catholicism is a religion of fine distinctions.  Its the PROTESTANTS who flatten everything out and assume things are obvious based on the exact wording of a scriptural text (usually.) 

    I'm not sure if BOD is a dogma, but if I were going to try to argue that it is, I'd argue from Trent.  I'm pretty sure its debated in the church fathers.  And catechisms are, as mentioned, not infallible.

    My main objection with regards to the catechisms, though, is not that they have to be correct, just that I really doubt the catechism writers (or St Alphonsus) were so foolish as to just obviously contradict a really, really simple bible passage.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #108 on: August 08, 2019, 12:51:59 PM »
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    I'm not sure if BOD is a dogma, but if I were going to try to argue that it is, I'd argue from Trent.
    At least that is an honest and logical approach.  Except Trent does not clarify whether BOD provides heaven.  It only says it gives justification.
    .
    Contrary to popular belief and many lies, Feeneyites do not believe that a justified, unbaptized person goes to hell (and that this is "de fide").  We only say "it's not clear."  Our opinion is they go to Limbo.  We hold this question as still unsettled.
    .
    BOD'ers, on the other hand, call Feeneyites heretics.  And they also ignore the fact that many evil men have used this unsettled question to push the boundaries of salvation from a catechumen to anyone who simply "desires God" (see V2).  This is what Feeneyites call "heresy".
    .
    BOD is not a heresy.  Yet neither is it "de fide".  The heresy is in the application of BOD anyone who isn't a formal, public catechumen.  If the Church came out tomorrow and declared that an unbaptized, justified person goes to heaven, i'd believe it in a heartbeat.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #109 on: August 08, 2019, 01:05:35 PM »
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  • Hold on, your argument is that they did this on purpose?

    My problem with this is that the logic seems similar to the Protestant "one mediator" argument.  If a fine distinction can be used in the latter case, it can be used in the former case as well.

    I believe the answer to your question is that there's one baptism, and three different ways of receiving it, or at least, I believe that's the pro BOD answer.
    It is my opinion that they did this on purpose, whether due to ignorance or malice I cannot guess, but certainly it's not something in there by accident. This forum alone proves it is a teaching that contradicts Scripture, tradition and infallible dogma.

    The prot's logic has it's foundation in "Christ did everything, we only need to accept Him as our Savior to be saved." Whereas we Catholics must be told by the Church what we must do in order to be saved, which the prots wholly, some vehemently, reject. So I do not get the connection you are trying to make.

    Being that there is only one baptism, and being that Our Lord specifically made the matter water, and He specifically made the form "I baptize thee in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, and since the recipient must desire to receive that one baptism in this manner, if there were any other possible way to receive that baptism, we do not know of it, as such, any other method would only be speculation.  

    Also of interest is the fact that the only ones who promote a BOD, are already baptized. You will never hear an unbaptized person promote it - never.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #110 on: August 08, 2019, 01:09:57 PM »
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  • Seán continues to ignore this point, even though it rips a huge hole in his argument. He says God would be unjust to let a man in China die without being given a chance to be baptised, and yet a baby not being given a chance to be baptised is fine by him? It's hypocrisy at its finest.

    Yes, he's gone silent.  That's SeanJohson's MO, historically, here on CI.  When he's put into a logical corner, he scurries away.  I see that he's disappeared from this thread and never addressed the unbaptized infant objection to his principles.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #111 on: August 08, 2019, 01:14:03 PM »
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  • At least that is an honest and logical approach.  Except Trent does not clarify whether BOD provides heaven.  It only says it gives justification.
    .
    Contrary to popular belief and many lies, Feeneyites do not believe that a justified, unbaptized person goes to hell (and that this is "de fide").  We only say "it's not clear."  Our opinion is they go to Limbo.  We hold this question as still unsettled.
    .
    BOD'ers, on the other hand, call Feeneyites heretics.  And they also ignore the fact that many evil men have used this unsettled question to push the boundaries of salvation from a catechumen to anyone who simply "desires God" (see V2).  This is what Feeneyites call "heresy".
    .
    BOD is not a heresy.  Yet neither is it "de fide".  The heresy is in the application of BOD anyone who isn't a formal, public catechumen.  If the Church came out tomorrow and declared that an unbaptized, justified person goes to heaven, i'd believe it in a heartbeat.
    Logically, I don't see how a justified man who dies justified could not wind up in heaven.  That doesn't seem consistent.

    I'm hesitant to call Feeneyites heretics.  For one thing, I don't have a right to make that call.  That call needs to be made by the Church.  The closest you can get is Pius XII in that one 1949 encyclical which name I don't remember, but that seems far from definitive, ex cathedra.  And for non-sedes at least, St Benedict Center is allowed by the current pope.  Of course, so are a lot of other things that *definitely* should be condemned, but I still think despite having a defective hierarchy, we should be very, very careful about trying to play said hierarchy ourselves.

    The only thing that I'm not clear on is the idea that its "heresy" to apply BOD to "anyone who isn't a formal, public catechumen".  That's the thing that hasn't been adequetely demonstrated to me yet, and I think some people here are elevating their own, understandable but nevertheless definitely questionable, reading of old church docuмents as though it was equivalent to an actual rebuke by the Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #112 on: August 08, 2019, 01:17:03 PM »
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  • BOD is not a heresy.  Yet neither is it "de fide".  The heresy is in the application of BOD anyone who isn't a formal, public catechumen.  If the Church came out tomorrow and declared that an unbaptized, justified person goes to heaven, i'd believe it in a heartbeat.

    Absolutely.  We have a perfect example of this distinction actually being applied.  St. Joseph died in a state of justification ... as did many OT saints.  Yet he could not receive the beatific vision or enter heaven, because something was lacking.  There's something more than mere justification required for salvation and possession of the beatific vision.  I am of the opinion that it is the CHARACTER of Baptism (not received in BoD) that confers the supernatural faculty or capability to see God as He is ... which we are incapable of doing with our natural faculties.  Consequently, without this character, it is not possible to enjoy the beatific vision.  I believe that the Old Testament just were granted this character in extraordinary manner.  Do you recall the description in the Gospels about how the dead were raised back to life?  Why?  Some Church Fathers speculated that they were raised from the dead so they could be baptized, and then died again in that state to be able to enter heaven.

    I believe that those who suffer martyrdom for Our Lord while unbaptized have all the temporal punishment due to sin remitted and enjoy a state of perfect happiness in Limbo, having no debt of actual sin remaining.  But they cannot enjoy the beatific vision.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #113 on: August 08, 2019, 01:18:14 PM »
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  • Logically, I don't see how a justified man who dies justified could not wind up in heaven.  That doesn't seem consistent.

    See my previous response, and my example of St. Joseph.

    I would be more readily accepting of BoD if in fact the promoters of it didn't assert (gratuitiously ... as with every other detail about that theory) that such as those did not receive the character of Baptism.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #114 on: August 08, 2019, 01:18:55 PM »
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  • Except Trent does not clarify whether BOD provides heaven.  It only says it gives justification.

    You mistake Fr. Feeney for Trent.

    Trent teaches that noone is saved without a sacrament.
    Trent teaches that there is no baptism without water.
    Trent teaches that you need the laver of regeneration as well as the desire for it.

    It is intellectual dishonesty to say that Trent mentions BoD. Trent requires the laver of regeneration and the desire thereof.

    The statement "Noone can write a thesis on rocket science without a pen or a pencil" does neither imply

    - that folks with a pen can write a thesis on rocket science
    - that folks with a pencil can write a thesis on rocket science
    - that folks with a pencil and a pen can write a thesis on rocket science

    To be able to write a thesis on rocket science, much more than pen and/or pencil is needed.

    The Council of Trent explains in detail what is needed. You just have to read the whole Decree on Justification (spoiler: water, the sacrament of baptism, as well as desire thereof are included).




    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #115 on: August 08, 2019, 01:21:51 PM »
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  • The only thing that I'm not clear on is the idea that its "heresy" to apply BOD to "anyone who isn't a formal, public catechumen".  That's the thing that hasn't been adequetely demonstrated to me yet, and I think some people here are elevating their own, understandable but nevertheless definitely questionable, reading of old church docuмents as though it was equivalent to an actual rebuke by the Church.

    That is because it's the constant teaching of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium that knowledge of Christ and the Holy Trinity are required for supernatural faith and therefore for salvation.  So, for 1600 years, not a single Catholic anywhere taught or believed otherwise, and yet a Jesuit comes along in 1600 rejecting this teaching, and suddenly it's open for questioning?  So something taught infallibly by the OUM and the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers suddenly becomes no longer infallibly taught because a handful of innovators began to question it?  Nonsense.  While this has NOT been explicitly condemned by the Church since that time, it's objectively heretical without a doubt.  And the greatest mistake (by omission) ever made in the history of the Church has been the failure to explicitly condemn this error.  This omission is what ultimately led to Vatican II.  Father Feeney was the only one who saw and predicted where it was going even before Vatican II happened.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #116 on: August 08, 2019, 01:24:41 PM »
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    Trent requires the laver of regeneration and the desire thereof.
    Someone posted a while back that the translation from latin to English was wrong and that Trent said "and" and not "or".  In other words, to receive baptism one must receive the sacrament AND have the desire to.  This totally changes the meaning and destroys BOD.  Can anyone confirm?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #117 on: August 08, 2019, 01:26:08 PM »
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  • You mistake Fr. Feeney for Trent.

    Trent teaches that noone is saved without a sacrament.
    Trent teaches that there is no baptism without water.
    Trent teaches that you need the laver of regeneration as well as the desire for it.

    It is intellectual dishonesty to say that Trent mentions BoD. Trent requires the laver of regeneration and the desire thereof.

    The statement "Noone can write a thesis on rocket science without a pen or a pencil" does neither imply

    - that folks with a pen can write a thesis on rocket science
    - that folks with a pencil can write a thesis on rocket science
    - that folks with a pencil and a pen can write a thesis on rocket science

    To be able to write a thesis on rocket science, much more than pen and/or pencil is needed.

    The Council of Trent explains in detail what is needed. You just have to read the whole Decree on Justification (spoiler: water, the sacrament of baptism, as well as desire thereof are included).

    Right.  I don't believe that Trent teaches it either.  Trent teaches the desire for Baptism to be a necessary but not a sufficient cause of justification.  But it's ALSO true that Trent makes no mention of salvation, but only of justification.  Trent later explicitly taught the distinction between justification and salvation.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #118 on: August 08, 2019, 01:30:42 PM »
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  • That is because it's the constant teaching of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium that knowledge of Christ and the Holy Trinity are required for supernatural faith and therefore for salvation.  So, for 1600 years, not a single Catholic anywhere taught or believed otherwise, and yet a Jesuit comes along in 1600 rejecting this teaching, and suddenly it's open for questioning?  So something taught infallibly by the OUM and the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers suddenly becomes no longer infallibly taught because a handful of innovators began to question it?  Nonsense.  While this has NOT been explicitly condemned by the Church since that time, it's objectively heretical without a doubt.  And the greatest mistake (by omission) ever made in the history of the Church has been the failure to explicitly condemn this error.  This omission is what ultimately led to Vatican II.  Father Feeney was the only one who saw and predicted where it was going even before Vatican II happened.
    If its really the case that every single Catholic taught this for 1600 years, then I'd agree that that conclusion follows.  That seems like a much clearer argument than simply citing the dogmatic definitions (for reasons I've pointed out previously.) 

    Furthermore, I'm not even sure Vatican II demands you to conclude otherwise, even if you hold to it.  It certainly allows for it, but its possible to read Vatican II in a way that doesn't come to that conclusion I think.

    The only two pieces of data that come to my mind that could be used to argue against you, and I'm by no means an expert and will need to do more research, but is, I believe Justin Martyr suggests the salvation of Socrates in First Apology, and Augustine suggests in Letter 43 that someone who was born a Donatist, and is sincerely seeking the truth, ought not to be regarded as a heretic.  Neither point, however, is a perfect refutation of you, because the first one deals with the Old Covenant situation.  The second one deals with a Donatist, who believes in the Holy Trinity, however I don't see why he wouldn't be in a comparable position to an EO or a Protestant (and if I understand correctly, Feeneyites would ALSO say its heretical to say that anyone who identifies as Protestant or Eastern Orthodox could be saved.)  


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #119 on: August 08, 2019, 01:33:39 PM »
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  • It is my opinion that they did this on purpose, whether due to ignorance or malice I cannot guess, but certainly it's not something in there by accident. This forum alone proves it is a teaching that contradicts Scripture, tradition and infallible dogma.

    The prot's logic has it's foundation in "Christ did everything, we only need to accept Him as our Savior to be saved." Whereas we Catholics must be told by the Church what we must do in order to be saved, which the prots wholly, some vehemently, reject. So I do not get the connection you are trying to make.

    Being that there is only one baptism, and being that Our Lord specifically made the matter water, and He specifically made the form "I baptize thee in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, and since the recipient must desire to receive that one baptism in this manner, if there were any other possible way to receive that baptism, we do not know of it, as such, any other method would only be speculation.  

    Also of interest is the fact that the only ones who promote a BOD, are already baptized. You will never hear an unbaptized person promote it - never.
    You're missing his point. The Bible says there is one mediator, Christ. However the also Church says Mary is also mediatrix. Church teaching cannot contradict the Bible, so someone could say that the Church calling Mary mediatrix creates two mediators, and that therefore the teaching is false since the Bible says there is just one. They would be wrong however, because the Church makes a finer distinction between what mediator means for Christ and what it means for Mary.

    His point is that the same logic could be applied to BOD. Declaring BOD as false because it appears to propose more than one baptism is the same as declaring that the teaching that Mary is mediatrix is false because it appears to propose more than one mediator. His point is that the apparent contradiction between BOD and one baptism could be resolved by finer distinction in the same way the mediator problem is resolved.