Author Topic: CM makes good point against BoD!!! (Read 14485 times)

CM · « **Reply #55 on:** October 07, 2009, 11:01:10 PM »

Raoul76, I specifically am asking you to answer my 5 questions. They appear earlier in the thread (twice).

Quote from: Raoul76

I read an interesting quote from Pope St. Leo the Great. I can't find it now, I'll try to dig it up again, but he said that if you were baptized by a heretic -- referring to an Arian -- it does not count as a real baptism, but that you don't need to get baptized again even conditionally. Instead you only need the "laying on of hands" of a real Catholic bishop, in other words, confirmation.

Show me. I am happy to wait patiently, but not indefinitely.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #56 on:** October 07, 2009, 11:04:42 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

It isn't merely a matter of externals.

Please quote my words that say I believe it IS.

Quote

Which means that it's possible to "fake it."

Again: HOW would you PROVE such in any given case?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #57 on:** October 07, 2009, 11:05:43 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

...now I know why the St. Thomas article was posted!

Uh, because it is crystal clear and true?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #58 on:** October 07, 2009, 11:10:11 PM »

Quote

Baptism is valid when conferred by a minister who observes all the external rite and form of baptizing, but within his heart resolves, I do not intend what the Church does. - CONDEMNED

This is like saying that a sane man who shoots his mother in cold blood SHOULD be found guilty, even if he supposedly claimed he internally had a different intention.

How would you PROVE a scenario like the one condemned existed?

"I do NOT intend to pour this water, in this manner, pronouncing these words, even while I, simultaneously, am DOING these very things..." ?%$*@$?

CM · « **Reply #59 on:** October 07, 2009, 11:42:03 PM »

Watch your mouth, Irish, and keep your shirt on. Sheesh. :rolleyes:

Pope Leo XIII teaches that when the externals are performed according as the Church does them, we should presume that the minister has the intention to do what the Church does.

However, people can say things they don't intend to say, and do things they don't intend to do. I believe I have experienced this myself.

Now it could be argued that I had fully intended to say _______, but after I said it I repented of myself. This, in a minister would not invalidate the sacrament. But if in fact I meant to say _______, but something else came out instead, then it could be argued that a minister, likewise, could intend not to do what the Church does, but does it anyway.

Just like you might intend to go buy milk after work, but you drive straight home instead, because of an ingrained repetitious pattern of behaviour.