Author Topic: CM makes good point against BoD!!! (Read 14491 times)

Telesphorus · « **Reply #50 on:** October 07, 2009, 10:29:39 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

How much harm do I do you when I intend to kill you with a handgun, but fail to pull the trigger? ZEE-ROW. Such is the harm done by one with the supposed "evil intention" who performs an act contrary thereto.

Is that what they told you at SGG?

This articles says mere externals are not sufficient.

Quote

The Church teaches very unequivocally that for the valid conferring of the sacraments, the minister must have the intention of doing at least what the Church does. This is laid down with great emphasis by the Council of Trent (sess. VII). The opinion once defended by such theologians as Catharinus and Salmeron that there need only be the intention to perform deliberately the external rite proper to each sacrament, and that, as long as this was true, the interior dissent of the minister from the mind of the Church would not invalidate the sacrament, no longer finds adherents. The common doctrine now is that a real internal intention to act as a minister of Christ, or to do what Christ instituted the sacraments to effect, in other words, to truly baptize, absolve, etc., is required.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08069b.htm

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #51 on:** October 07, 2009, 10:34:31 PM »

HOW would you ever go about PROVING such?

Btw, read the quote, which gels with what my main point is:

"The Church teaches very unequivocally that for the valid conferring of the sacraments, the minister must have the intention of doing at least what the Church does."

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #52 on:** October 07, 2009, 10:36:49 PM »

Intending to do what the Church does is NOT the same thing as intending what the Church intends.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #53 on:** October 07, 2009, 10:41:55 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Intending to do what the Church does is NOT the same thing as intending what the Church intends.

It isn't merely a matter of externals. Which means that it's possible to "fake it."

CM · « **Reply #54 on:** October 07, 2009, 10:59:36 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: gladius_veritatis
Intending to do what the Church does is NOT the same thing as intending what the Church intends.

It isn't merely a matter of externals. Which means that it's possible to "fake it."

The condemnation by Pope Alexander VIII against the Jansenists would seem to agree with you Telesphorus.

Quote

Baptism is valid when conferred by a minister who observes all the external rite and form of baptizing, but within his heart resolves, I do not intend what the Church does. - CONDEMNED

(now I know why the St. Thomas article was posted!)