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Author Topic: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?  (Read 2172 times)

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Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
« on: April 25, 2021, 10:26:10 PM »
Fr. Laisney in his book “Is Feeneyism Catholic?” states the following regarding Cantate Domino’s oft repeated ex cathedra pronouncement typically used in favor of Fr. Feeney’s interpretation of EENS:

“Perhaps the  clearest definition of the dogma  Outside  the Church there is no salvation  is given on February  4,  1442, by  the Council of Florence, which intended the union with the  Greeks, Armenians and Jacobites. [The holy Roman  Church]  firmly believes, professes, and preaches that “no one remaining outside the Catholic  Church, not just  pagans,  but also  Jews  or  heretics or schismatics,  can become  partakers of  eternal life;  but  they will  go  to the ‘everlasting fire which  was prepared for the  devil and his angels’  (Mt. 25:41), unless  before  the  end  of life they  are  joined to the  Church. For union with the body of the Church is of such  importance that the  sacraments of the  Church are helpful to  salvation only  for those remaining in it; and fasts,  almsgiving, other works of piety, and the exercise of Christian warfare  bear eternal rewards  for them  alone.  And  no  one  can  be  saved,  no  matter  how  much  alms he  has given,  even if he sheds  his  blood for the name  of Christ, unless  he remains in the bosom  and the unity of the Catholic Church.”60 Some followers of  Fr.  Feeney, reading  the last sentence,  pretend that  it is a condemnation of Baptism of Blood.61  This only shows their ignorance of  the fact  that  this  whole paragraph is  a quote by the Council of Florence  of a passage of St. Fulgentius,  in his book  On  Faith,  to Peter. Now,  when a  Pope or  a Council quote a Father of the Church, they  certainly  do  not  give  another meaning to  his  words than this Father gave.

Moreover, the  very  Council of Florence, in the very  same  decree for  the Jacobites (part  of the  bull  Cantate  Domino) mentions baptism  of desire! Here  is  the passage: As  for children, because  of the danger of death, which can happen often, since  no other remedy is available for them  besides the sacrament of  Baptism, by  which they are delivered  from the domination of the devil and  adopted as  children of God, [the Council]  warns  that one ought not  to delay the sacred Baptism for  40  or 80  days  or another  time according  to certain customs, but it should  rather be  conferred as  soon  as  fittingly possible. Now the underlined passage is a quote  from St. Thomas Aquinas.  Knowing how closely  the Council of Florence followed St.  Thomas’s  teaching, it is  undoubtedly a  confirmation by  the very  Council of  Florence of St. Thomas’s  teaching.  Now here  is the whole text of  St. Thomas: Whether Baptism  should be deferred? (Summa Theologica,  III, Q.68,  A.3) I answer  that, In this matter we must make a distinction and see whether  those who are to be  baptized are children  or  adults. For  if they be  children, Baptism should not  be deferred. First, because in them  we do not look for  better instruction or fuller conversion.  Secondly, because of the  danger of death, for  no other remedy  is available for  them  besides the sacrament of  Baptism. On the other  hand,  adults have a remedy  in the mere desire for Baptism.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Does Cantate Domino then really imply that adults as opposed to children have another remedy to water Baptism via Baptism of Desire? Does this mean that Baptism of Desire makes a person Catholic?

These are interesting questions that I would like some references on if anyone happens to have anything relevant.

I’ve been reading Who Shall Ascend? as well as Bread of Life and I haven’t seen this issue discussed. Moreover I haven’t found a direct discussion concerning it much elsewhere either.

Offline trad123

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Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2021, 11:10:02 PM »
Fr. Laisney in his book “Is Feeneyism Catholic?” states the following regarding Cantate Domino’s oft repeated ex cathedra pronouncement typically used in favor of Fr. Feeney’s interpretation of EENS:

(. . .)

Moreover, the  very  Council of Florence, in the very  same  decree for  the Jacobites (part  of the  bull  Cantate  Domino) mentions baptism  of desire!



Where does it mention it?



https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecuм17.htm

Quote
SESSION 11 4 February 1442

[Bull of union with the Copts]

(. . .)

With regard to children, since the danger of death is often present and the only remedy available to them is the sacrament of baptism by which they are snatched away from the dominion of the devil and adopted as children of God, it admonishes that sacred baptism is not to be deferred for forty or eighty days or any other period of time in accordance with the usage of some people, but it should be conferred as soon as it conveniently can; and if there is imminent danger of death, the child should be baptized straightaway without any delay, even by a lay man or a woman in the form of the church, if there is no priest, as is contained more fully in the decree on the Armenians.





The Christian Faith in the Doctrinal Docuмents of the Catholic Church, published in 1982

Page 377:


Pope Siricius, Letter to Himerius, Bishop of Tarragona, 385



Quote
As we maintain that the observance of the holy Paschal time should in no way be relaxed, in the same way we desire that infants who, on account of their age, cannot yet speak, or those who, in any necessity, are in want of the water of holy baptism, be succoured with all possible speed, for fear that, if anyone who leaves this world should be deprived of the life of the Kingdom for having been refused the source of salvation which he desired, this may lead to the ruin of our souls. If anyone threatened with shipwreck, or the attack of enemies, or the uncertainties of a siege, or anyone put in a hopeless condition due to some bodily sickness, asks for what in his faith is his only help, let him receive at the very moment of his request the reward of the regeneration he begs for. Enough of the past mistakes! From now on, let all the priests observe the aforesaid rule if they do not want to be separated from the solid apostolic rock on which Christ has built His universal Church.




Scan of the page is attached.


Offline Cryptinox

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Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2021, 11:10:44 PM »
That book is awful and very dishonest.

Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2021, 07:45:55 AM »


Where does it mention it?

Fr. Laisney’s argument is two fold.
1. Since Cantate Domino says “regarding children since the only remedy...” which implies that another remedy is available to adults i.e Baptism of Desire. (See full quote in OP)
2. Cantate Domino is quoting St. Fulgentius and St. Thomas Aquinas in the passages cited against belief in Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire respectively yet St. Fulgentius goes on to mention Baptism of Blood in what he is quoted in and St. Aquinas the same for Baptism of Desire.
I’m curious to know if Fr. Feeney or someone who holds to his position has addressed this argument before hence my OP. I couldn’t find anything on it.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2021, 08:04:22 AM »
If you're claiming that because CD cites St. Fulgentius and St. Thomas that it endorses all their other thoughts on the subject, not only is that absurd, but

... ahem ... you are aware, right?, that St. Fulgentius explicitly rejected Baptism of Desire?