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Author Topic: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance  (Read 26400 times)

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Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2022, 02:33:53 PM »
Too bad he rejects the baptism part of Pope Gregory's teaching.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2022, 02:45:30 PM »
Great.  That's a step in the right direction.  He does stop a bit short of affirming, however, that he believes in that position, or believes that the "Rewarder God" theory is unacceptable and untenable.  But not a few Traditional Catholics hold that you're basically a "Feeneyite heretic" if you say that infidels, Jews, pagans, etc. cannot be saved.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2022, 02:48:28 PM »
Too bad he rejects the baptism part of Pope Gregory's teaching.

See, here's another thing about Baptism.  It is certainly heretical to claim that someone can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism, and unfortunately a great many anti-BoDers say, think, and hold exactly that.

In debates I've had in the past with BoDers, I've exhorted them to at least re-articulate their support for BoD in such a way as not to deny the necessity of the SACRAMENT for salvation.  "Hey, if you're going to believe in BoD, at least say that they must receive the Sacrament in voto rather than say that they don't need to receive the Sacrament or that they can be saved without the Sacrament."  But the ones I asked to reconsider refused to do so.

St. Robert Bellarmine, for instance, never said that anyone could be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism, only that they could receive the Sacrament in voto.  There's a HUGE difference there that is lost on most of the BoD advocates.  This formulation preserves the necessity of the Sacrament for salvation, while the vast majority deny it ... and are therefore heretical.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2022, 02:53:07 PM »
This was before your time here, Servus, but there was a poster here, Xavier Nishant, who (before he was banned for other reasons) eventually came around and started to hold that those who are justified by desire would at least be somehow baptized before they died.  He came to accept the teaching of St. Augustine on the matter, holding that there's nothing that would prevent God from sending an angel to confer the Sacrament on someone who was in a state of justification and nearing the moment of death.  That's actually what St. Cyprian believed was taking place during Baptism of Blood.  He referred to it as the Sacrament and said that the angels pronounced the words during the martyrdom.

What is this nonsense that God's Providence can be thwarted by "impossibility" or "unforeseen" death?  St. Augustine, after he rejected BoD, that those who "wish to be Catholic" must reject this thinking, that God's Providence could thwart Him from getting the Sacrament to His elect.

To claim that God can be prevented by "impossibility" is in fact clearly heretical.  "With God all things are possible." right?  To say otherwise is to deny His omnipotence.  So the only conclusion is that God wills for some to be saved by BoD instead of actual reception of the Sacrament.  So why would He do that exactly?  In fact, we have some stories of the saints where the saint raised a deceased person back to life to confer the Sacrament.  In one case, there was a woman who was a devout practicing Catholic ... or so it was thought.  She went to Holy Communion every day, regular Confession, etc.  According to St. Thomas, the reception of Holy Communion would have put her in a state of grace.  But she died before the saint could get there.  He raised her back to life and started hearing her Confession.  Then he abruptly stopped, and asked for water.  It was revealed to him that she had not been baptized.  So he baptized her and she died.