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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire  (Read 6027 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2018, 08:59:12 AM »
Quote from: poche on October 23, 2018, 05:20:25 AM
They must intend to do what the Church does. If there is no intention as in a play then it is not baptism.

You must intend to DO what the Church DOES.  That's why atheists can validly baptize.  Apart from that, the details of the story are likely embellished somewhat and the account cannot be considered completely reliable.  So whatever you want to make it of it, it's not proof of anything, poche.  Try actually making a theological argument.
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Baptism of Desire
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2018, 07:12:12 PM »
Quote from: poche on October 23, 2018, 05:20:25 AM
They must intend to do what the Church does. If there is no intention as in a play then it is not baptism.
What does all of that matter to you, you believe that non-Catholics, that is, people in all false religions or no religion can be saved.
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Offline poche

Re: Baptism of Desire
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2018, 12:47:50 AM »
Quote from: ihsv on October 23, 2018, 08:44:55 AM
So St. Genesius had an outpouring of grace, converted from his paganism, and asked to be baptized, trusting in God to provide what was needed.  Is it your position that God gave St. Genesius the grace of conversion but neglected to give the grace necessary to the other actor to baptize with the basic intention of doing what the Church does?   Bear in mind that this is the same God who said "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter the Kingdom of God", and again "He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned", and elsewhere: "Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened. Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone? Or if he shall ask him a fish, will he reach him a serpent?  If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?"

One of the biggest problems with those who deny EENS is a lack of faith in Divine Providence.  Not a single hair falls from your head without God willing it.  Not a single drop of water falls from the baptizing vessel without God directing it.
This baptism was simulated and Genesius' conversion came after the baptism not as a result of it
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Offline ihsv

Re: Baptism of Desire
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2018, 07:31:20 AM »
Quote from: poche on October 24, 2018, 12:47:50 AM
This baptism was simulated and Genesius' conversion came after the baptism not as a result of it

Not true.  He asked specifically for baptism.  He would never have been martyred for only receiving a mock baptism.

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2018, 08:19:29 AM »
Quote from: poche on October 24, 2018, 12:47:50 AM
This baptism was simulated and Genesius' conversion came after the baptism not as a result of it

Not according to the narrative I read.  What I read indicated that he received a miraculous grace of conversion just before the Baptism and truly willed and desired to receive it by the time it was administered.  Again, it goes to show you that dubious narratives such as the account of his martyrdom cannot be used to do theology.
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