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Offline older salt

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Baptism of Desire
« on: October 20, 2018, 10:47:50 AM »
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  • Apparently the concept of the Baptism of Desire goes back further than Trent. This from the article:
    This is something the Church has always been aware of. For example, in A.D. 256, Cyprian of Carthage stated of catechumens who are martyred before baptism, “They certainly are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism who are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord also said that he had ‘another baptism to be baptized with’ (Luke 12:50)” (Letters 72 [73]:22).
    It also talks about Trent:
    Canon four of Trent’s Canons on the Sacraments in General states, “If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them . . . men obtain from God the grace of justification, let him be anathema [i.e., ceremonially excommunicated].”
    This is confirmed in chapter four of Trent’s Decree on Justification, which states that “This translation [i.e., justification], however, cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration [i.e., baptism] or its desire, as it is written: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ (John 3:5).”
    Trent teaches that, although not all the sacraments are necessary for salvation, the sacraments in general are necessary. Without them or the desire of them men cannot obtain the grace of justification, but with them or the desire of them men can be justified. The sacrament through which we initially receive justification is baptism. But since the canon teaches that we can be justified with the desire of the sacraments rather than the sacraments themselves, we can be justified with the desire for baptism rather than baptism itself.

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #1 on: October 20, 2018, 10:57:50 AM »
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  • This belongs in the designated Feenyite subforum, not General Discussion.

    In struggling to find patristic proofs of baptism of desire, why do you quote something that discusses the martyrdom of catechumens/baptism of blood, when your quote has absolutely nothing to do with baptism of desire?
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #2 on: October 20, 2018, 11:07:53 AM »
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  • On the topic of St. Cyprian, he referred to BoB as a "Sacrament".  Modern theologians say that this was a mistake.

    Not so. Elsewhere St. Cyprian talks about how the angels supply the words.  He viewed BoB as a different mode of administering the Sacrament where blood supplies for water as the matter, and the angles supply the form.  So, for him, BoB was no exception for the requirement to receive the Sacrament of Baptism but rather just an extraordinary manner of receiving it.

    Offline older salt

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #3 on: October 20, 2018, 11:27:12 AM »
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  • sorry I went of topic but I did quote:
    This is confirmed in chapter four of Trent’s Decree on Justification, which states that “This translation [i.e., justification], however, cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration [i.e., baptism] or its desire,

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #4 on: October 21, 2018, 09:12:49 PM »
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  • Canon four of Trent’s Canons on the Sacraments in General states, “If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them . . . men obtain from God the grace of justification, let him be anathema [i.e., ceremonially excommunicated].”
    Common objections to the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism: 
         
    Proposed; The Council of Trent supports BOD in Session VII, the canons on the sacraments in general, Canon 4. (Dnz 847).

     Answer; This canon is two exclusive propositions which are so closely related they are joined with a conjunction and share a common qualifier but they are different enough to have differing subjects and the predicate of the second is more precise. In their logical form they are quite simple, the first being; all those saved are participants in the sacraments (all S are P) and the second is; all those justified are willing participants in the sacraments (all S are P) and of course both are qualified such that each person participates in a different number of the sacraments. The only way this can support BOD is that either reception of the sacraments or the desire to receive the sacraments is sufficient for justification which changes the second proposition into some of those justified are not participants in the sacraments (some S are not P) which makes the two propositions contradictories, or a logical fallacy. In other words, Trent is teaching that the sacraments are necessary for salvation and then clarifying that the form, matter, and intent are necessary for justification (basic Catholic theology concerning the sacraments of baptism and penance) but the BOD proponent says that the sacraments are necessary for salvation and then contradicts himself and says that the sacraments are not necessary for justification which is of course that prerequisite first step of our salvation. Remember here that St. Thomas Aquinas (and Fr Laisney) state that BOD is not a sacrament. (In defense of the Angelic Doctor I must state that he lived before Trent.) The truth is, this canon from Trent anathematizes the possibility of BOD and those who use this to support BOD are being illogical either from ignorance or dishonesty. 
    Pray the Holy Rosary.


    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #5 on: October 21, 2018, 09:17:14 PM »
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  • This is confirmed in chapter four of Trent’s Decree on Justification, which states that “This translation [i.e., justification], however, cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration [i.e., baptism] or its desire, as it is written: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ (John 3:5).”
      

    Proposed; The Council of Trent in Session VI, the Decree on Justification; chapter 4 supports BOD. First I must state that the Dnz 796 of this decree is a willful mistranslation to favor BOD and that is a serious sin. Knowing this and still using it is a deception, and depending on circumstances (who your trying to deceive) could be a serious sin as well. The latin word sine which means ‘without’ in English and has been mistranslated to ‘except through’ giving a different meaning.

    Answer; Now on to the meaning. The fathers at Trent were battling the practice of forced baptisms, most recently in Spain, which is why they defined the remedy for original sin as they did. Trent states that justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration or the will to receive it. Notice that in using the term “laver of regeneration” they specify the form and matter alone and they did not say baptism or the will thereof. This is because they are stating unequivocally, that form, matter, and intent are necessary for the sacrament. The fathers then go on to quote John 3:5 as support and command us to take it literally. Think of any two things you know go together and then substitute them into the sentence and it makes perfect sense. A man cannot be married without a woman or the will to marry her. The BOD of desire proponent claims this chapter means either the laver of regeneration or the will to receive it are sufficient for justification so that the will alone (votum means will not desire) is sufficient but this means then that the laver alone, absent the will, is sufficient and this is falsified in the very next chapter in Trent. Rather than supporting BOD this chapter in Trent actually denies its possibility.
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #6 on: October 21, 2018, 09:20:43 PM »
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  •  But since the canon teaches that we can be justified with the desire of the sacraments rather than the sacraments themselves, we can be justified with the desire for baptism rather than baptism itself.
    This is false. Trent teaches that the instrumental cause of justification is the Sacrament of Baptism. In order to avoid heresy one must confess that BOD is somehow a waterless mode of the Sacrament of Baptism.
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #7 on: October 22, 2018, 08:38:07 AM »
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  • This is false. Trent teaches that the instrumental cause of justification is the Sacrament of Baptism. In order to avoid heresy one must confess that BOD is somehow a waterless mode of the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Exactly right.  It's not possible to say that anyone can be justified without the Sacrament.  Rather, you have to AT LEAST say that they receive the Sacrament in voto.



    Offline poche

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #8 on: October 22, 2018, 08:46:49 AM »
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  • Then how could St Genesius be a saint?  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #9 on: October 22, 2018, 09:22:06 AM »
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  • Proposed; The Council of Trent in Session VI, the Decree on Justification; chapter 4 supports BOD. First I must state that the Dnz 796 of this decree is a willful mistranslation to favor BOD and that is a serious sin. Knowing this and still using it is a deception, and depending on circumstances (who your trying to deceive) could be a serious sin as well. The latin word sine which means ‘without’ in English and has been mistranslated to ‘except through’ giving a different meaning.

    Answer; Now on to the meaning. The fathers at Trent were battling the practice of forced baptisms, most recently in Spain, which is why they defined the remedy for original sin as they did. Trent states that justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration or the will to receive it. Notice that in using the term “laver of regeneration” they specify the form and matter alone and they did not say baptism or the will thereof. This is because they are stating unequivocally, that form, matter, and intent are necessary for the sacrament. The fathers then go on to quote John 3:5 as support and command us to take it literally. Think of any two things you know go together and then substitute them into the sentence and it makes perfect sense. A man cannot be married without a woman or the will to marry her. The BOD of desire proponent claims this chapter means either the laver of regeneration or the will to receive it are sufficient for justification so that the will alone (votum means will not desire) is sufficient but this means then that the laver alone, absent the will, is sufficient and this is falsified in the very next chapter in Trent. Rather than supporting BOD this chapter in Trent actually denies its possibility.

    Indeed, if one reads Trent as teaching "either ... or", then one would have to conclude that the Sacrament justifies even if someone doesn't want to receive it ... which is an error that's later explicitly anathematized in one of Trent's canons.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #10 on: October 22, 2018, 09:25:35 AM »
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  • Then how could St Genesius be a saint?  

    First of all, Genesius would be an example of Baptism of Blood, whereas this thread deals with Baptism of Desire.


    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #11 on: October 22, 2018, 09:49:48 AM »
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  • Then how could St Genesius be a saint?  
    St. Genesius was baptized.  It was during his performance ridiculing the sacrament of baptism that he had his conversion.  During the play, after a flood of grace, he asked his fellow actor to baptize him.  This occurred publicly, in front of the emperor.  It was this incident that brought about his martyrdom.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #12 on: October 22, 2018, 11:51:08 AM »
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  • St. Genesius was baptized.  It was during his performance ridiculing the sacrament of baptism that he had his conversion.  During the play, after a flood of grace, he asked his fellow actor to baptize him.  This occurred publicly, in front of the emperor.  It was this incident that brought about his martyrdom.

    Some people would argue that there was not sufficient intent on the part of the actor performing the Baptism to qualify as valid intention.  I think that's debatable.  If he thought he was DOING a ceremony DONE by the Church, I argue that it was valid.  Church has never stated that the person baptizing must believe in the effect of the Sacrament, which is why even atheists can validly baptize.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #13 on: October 23, 2018, 05:20:25 AM »
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  • Some people would argue that there was not sufficient intent on the part of the actor performing the Baptism to qualify as valid intention.  I think that's debatable.  If he thought he was DOING a ceremony DONE by the Church, I argue that it was valid.  Church has never stated that the person baptizing must believe in the effect of the Sacrament, which is why even atheists can validly baptize.
    They must intend to do what the Church does. If there is no intention as in a play then it is not baptism. 

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #14 on: October 23, 2018, 08:44:55 AM »
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  • They must intend to do what the Church does. If there is no intention as in a play then it is not baptism.

    So St. Genesius had an outpouring of grace, converted from his paganism, and asked to be baptized, trusting in God to provide what was needed.  Is it your position that God gave St. Genesius the grace of conversion but neglected to give the grace necessary to the other actor to baptize with the basic intention of doing what the Church does?   Bear in mind that this is the same God who said "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter the Kingdom of God", and again "He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned", and elsewhere: "Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened. Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone? Or if he shall ask him a fish, will he reach him a serpent?  If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?"

    One of the biggest problems with those who deny EENS is a lack of faith in Divine Providence.  Not a single hair falls from your head without God willing it.  Not a single drop of water falls from the baptizing vessel without God directing it.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

     

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