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Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Exilenomore

By submitting to the Holy Office which condemned the errors of Leonard Feeney during the reign of Pope Pius XII.

Please list the specific errors for us.

Why not just read the condemnation?

Since you brought it up, I thought you would know enough about it to be able to put it itemized in short form for us.

Quote from: MyrnaM

It seems to me, that those people who hang on to what Fr. Feeneys taught believe as the novus ordo believes.  The Novus Ordo believe the church began with Vatican II, and those who deny BOD and BOB believe the church began with Fr. Feeney, since both seem to disregard what the catechism teaches.  

The Novus Ordo embraces BOD - it is the core belief of the NO. Without BOD, there Could be no Novus Ordo.

BOD = EENS is dead. Admit it.  

I know what the novus ordo does teach and what it does not teach, my point is both, as my quote says, disregard the catechism, in different teachings.  Sorry for not making myself a little more clear.

Why is no one answering the question of how baptism of desire can save you if water is a necessity of baptism? I'm getting tired of people running around this issue and not even trying to answer the question. I really don't care for Fr. Feeney or geocentrism or what have you right now. What I want is answers.

Because Baptism of desire is not a sacrament, therefore there is no need for an outward sign, such as water.    What saves you through BOD is grace.  

Because Baptism of desire is not a sacrament, therefore there is no need for an outward sign, such as water.    What saves you through BOD is grace.  

But baptism of desire is a baptism, or else it would not be called Baptism of desire, now would it? That's the real issue here. That is the problem. Whether or not it's a sacrament isn't really even my main concern. My main concern is: if it is a baptism like the name implies, then should water not be necessary for it? The council of Trent says that water is necessary for baptism. If BoD is not baptism, then, quite frankly, I just don't know what the hell it is.

It is necessary in the sense that someone who refuses water Baptism cannot be saved, but not in the sense that God is chained to His Sacraments so that He needs water to save someone who, for example, is about to die, wants to be baptized, but has no access to water and dies without receiving the Sacrament. We do not know who is saved in this way. We can only know that someone is in Heaven if the Church canonizes him/her.

No one is saying that God is bound by His own sacraments. I am not saying God is bound by His sacraments. Asserting otherwise is a vicious lie against me. What I am really having trouble with is the idea that God would contradict Himself in saying that whoever is not born of water and the Holy Ghost cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I'm having trouble believing God would contradict the teachings of His Church or allow His Church to contradict Him and say that someone can be baptised by desire even after saying that water is necessary for baptism and having the Church define that water is a necessity of baptism.