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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire  (Read 3981 times)

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Baptism of Desire
« on: October 20, 2018, 10:47:50 AM »
Apparently the concept of the Baptism of Desire goes back further than Trent. This from the article:
This is something the Church has always been aware of. For example, in A.D. 256, Cyprian of Carthage stated of catechumens who are martyred before baptism, “They certainly are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism who are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord also said that he had ‘another baptism to be baptized with’ (Luke 12:50)” (Letters 72 [73]:22).
It also talks about Trent:
Canon four of Trent’s Canons on the Sacraments in General states, “If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them . . . men obtain from God the grace of justification, let him be anathema [i.e., ceremonially excommunicated].”
This is confirmed in chapter four of Trent’s Decree on Justification, which states that “This translation [i.e., justification], however, cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration [i.e., baptism] or its desire, as it is written: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ (John 3:5).”
Trent teaches that, although not all the sacraments are necessary for salvation, the sacraments in general are necessary. Without them or the desire of them men cannot obtain the grace of justification, but with them or the desire of them men can be justified. The sacrament through which we initially receive justification is baptism. But since the canon teaches that we can be justified with the desire of the sacraments rather than the sacraments themselves, we can be justified with the desire for baptism rather than baptism itself.

Re: Baptism of Desire
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2018, 10:57:50 AM »
This belongs in the designated Feenyite subforum, not General Discussion.

In struggling to find patristic proofs of baptism of desire, why do you quote something that discusses the martyrdom of catechumens/baptism of blood, when your quote has absolutely nothing to do with baptism of desire?


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2018, 11:07:53 AM »
On the topic of St. Cyprian, he referred to BoB as a "Sacrament".  Modern theologians say that this was a mistake.

Not so. Elsewhere St. Cyprian talks about how the angels supply the words.  He viewed BoB as a different mode of administering the Sacrament where blood supplies for water as the matter, and the angles supply the form.  So, for him, BoB was no exception for the requirement to receive the Sacrament of Baptism but rather just an extraordinary manner of receiving it.

Re: Baptism of Desire
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2018, 11:27:12 AM »
sorry I went of topic but I did quote:
This is confirmed in chapter four of Trent’s Decree on Justification, which states that “This translation [i.e., justification], however, cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration [i.e., baptism] or its desire,

Offline JoeZ

  • Supporter
Re: Baptism of Desire
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2018, 09:12:49 PM »

Canon four of Trent’s Canons on the Sacraments in General states, “If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them . . . men obtain from God the grace of justification, let him be anathema [i.e., ceremonially excommunicated].”
Common objections to the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism: 
     
Proposed; The Council of Trent supports BOD in Session VII, the canons on the sacraments in general, Canon 4. (Dnz 847).

 Answer; This canon is two exclusive propositions which are so closely related they are joined with a conjunction and share a common qualifier but they are different enough to have differing subjects and the predicate of the second is more precise. In their logical form they are quite simple, the first being; all those saved are participants in the sacraments (all S are P) and the second is; all those justified are willing participants in the sacraments (all S are P) and of course both are qualified such that each person participates in a different number of the sacraments. The only way this can support BOD is that either reception of the sacraments or the desire to receive the sacraments is sufficient for justification which changes the second proposition into some of those justified are not participants in the sacraments (some S are not P) which makes the two propositions contradictories, or a logical fallacy. In other words, Trent is teaching that the sacraments are necessary for salvation and then clarifying that the form, matter, and intent are necessary for justification (basic Catholic theology concerning the sacraments of baptism and penance) but the BOD proponent says that the sacraments are necessary for salvation and then contradicts himself and says that the sacraments are not necessary for justification which is of course that prerequisite first step of our salvation. Remember here that St. Thomas Aquinas (and Fr Laisney) state that BOD is not a sacrament. (In defense of the Angelic Doctor I must state that he lived before Trent.) The truth is, this canon from Trent anathematizes the possibility of BOD and those who use this to support BOD are being illogical either from ignorance or dishonesty.