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Offline Matthew

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Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
« on: February 08, 2024, 12:05:56 PM »
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  • Baptism of Blood and of Desire
    From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology,
    the Fathers, Doctors and Theologians of the Church

    1. COUNCIL OF TRENT (1545-1563)
    Canons on the Sacraments in General (Canon 4):
    “If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justiflcation; let him be anathema.”

    Decree on Justification (Session 6, Chapter 4):
    “In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the ‘adoption of the Sons’ (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God’ (John 3:5).”

    2. ST. ALPHONSUS LIGUORI (1691-1787)
    Moral Theology (Bk. 6):
    “But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind␅ [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

    3. 1917 CODE OF CANON LAW On Ecclesiastical Burial (Canon 1239. 2)
    “Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized.” — The Sacred Canons
    by Rev. John A. Abbo. St.T.L., J.C.D., and Rev. Jerome D. Hannan, A.M., LL.B., S.T.D., J.C.D.

    Commentary on the Code:
    “The reason for this rule is that they are justly supposed to have met death united to Christ through Baptism of desire.”

    4. POPE INNOCENT III
    Apostolicam:
    To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of Holy Mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine’s City of God where among other things it is written, “Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.” Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned (Denzinger 388).

    Debitum pastoralis officii, August 28, 1206:
    You have, to be sure, intimated that a certain Jєω, when at the point of death, since he lived only among Jєωs, immersed himself in water while saying: “I baptize myself in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”

    We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord, when He says to the Apostles: “Go baptize all nations in the name etc.” (cf. Matt. 28:19), the Jєω mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another… If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed off to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith (Denzinger 413).
    5. POPE ST. PIUS V (1566-1572)
    Ex omnibus afflictionibus, October 1, 1567
    Condemned the following erroneous propositions of Michael du Bay:

    • Perfect and sincere charity, which is from a “pure heart and good conscience and a faith not feigned” (1 Tim. 1:5) can be in catechumens as well as in penitents without the remission of sins.
    • That charity which is the fullness of the law is not always connected with the remission of sins.
    • A catechumen lives justly and rightly and holily, and observes the commandments of God, and fulfills the law through charity, which is only received in the laver of Baptism, before the remission of sins has been obtained.
    6. ST. AMBROSE
    “I hear you express grief because he [Valentinian] did not receive the Sacrament of Baptism. Tell me, what else is there in us except the will and petition? But he had long desired to be initiated… and expressed his intention to be baptized… Surely, he received [it] because he asked [for it].”
    7. ST. AUGUSTINE, City of God
    “I do not hesitate to place the Catholic catechumen, who is burning with the love of God, before the baptized heretic… The centurion Cornelius, before Baptism, was better than Simon [Magus], who had been baptized. For Cornelius, even before Baptism, was filled with the Holy Ghost, while Simon, after Baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit” (De Bapt. C. Donat., IV 21).
    8. ST. THOMAS AQUINAS
    Summa, Article 1, Part III, Q. 68:
    “I answer that, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.

    “Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: ‘I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the graces he prayed for.’”
    9. ST. ROBERT BELLARMINE, Doctor of the Church (1542-1621)
    Liber II, Caput XXX:
    “Boni Catehecuмeni sunt de Ecclesia, interna unione tantum, non autem externa”(Good catechumens are of the Church, by internal union only, not however, by external union).

    10. Roman Martyrology
    January 23: At Rome, St. Emerentiana, Virgin and Martyr, who was stoned by the heathen while still a catechumen, when she was praying at the tomb of St. Agnes, whose foster-sister she was.
    April 12: At Braga, in Portugal, St. Victor, Martyr, who, while still yet a catechumen, refused to worship an idol, and confessed Christ Jesus with great constancy, and so after many torments, he merited to be baptized in his own blood, his head being cut off.
    11. POPE PIUS IX (1846-1878) — Singulari Quidem, 1856:
    174. “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, lands, native talents, and so many other factors? Only when we have been released from the bonds of this body and see God just as He is (see John 3:2) all we really understand how close and beautiful a bond joins divine mercy with divine justice.”
    Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863):
    “…We all know that those who are afflicted with invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law that have been written by God in the hearts of men, if they are prepare to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can attain eternal life by the power of divine light and grace.”

    12. POPE PIUS XII (1939-1958) — Mystical Body of Christ (June 29, 1943):
    “As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible organization of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly… For even though unsuspectingly they are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer in desire and resolution, they still remain deprived of so many precious gifts and helps from heaven, which one can only enjoy in the Catholic Church.”
    13. FR. A. TANQUERY, Dogmatic Brevior; ART. IV, Section I, II – 1945 (1024-1)
    The Baptism of Desire. Contrition, or perfect charity, with at least an implicit desire for Baptism, supplies in adults the place of the baptism of water as respects the forgiveness of sins.
    This is certain.
    Explanation: a) An implicit desire for Baptism, that is, one that is included in a general purpose of keeping all the commandments of God is, as all agree, sufficient in one who is invincibly ignorant of the law of Baptism; likewise, according to the more common opinion, in one who knows the necessity of Baptism.
    b) Perfect charity, with a desire for Baptism, forgives original sin and actual sins, and therefore infuses sanctifying grace; but it does not imprint the Baptismal character and does not of itself remit the whole temporal punishment due for sin; whence, when the Unity offers, the obligation remains on
    one who was sanctified in this manner of receiving the Baptism of water.

    14. FR. DOMINIC PRUMMER, O.P., Moral Theology, 1949:

    • “Baptism of Desire which is a perfect act of charity that includes at least implicitly the desire for Baptism by water”;
    • “Baptism of Blood which signifies martyrdom endured for Christ prior to the reception of Baptism by Water”;
    • “Regarding the effects of Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire… both cause sanctifying grace. …Baptism of Blood usually remits all venial sin and temporal punishment…”
    15. FR. FRANCIS O’CONNELL, Outlines of Moral Theology, 1953:
    • “Baptism of Desire… is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition…”
    • “These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood and Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament.”
    • “…Even an infant can gain the benefit of the Baptism of Blood if he is put to death by a person actuated by hatred for the Christian faith….”
    16. MGR. J. H. HERVE, Manuale Theologiae Dogmaticae (Vol. III: chap. IV), 1931
    II. On those for whom Baptism of water can be supplied:
    The various baptisms: from the Tridentinum itself and from the things stated, it stands firm that Baptism is necessary, yet in fact or in desire; therefore in an extraordinary case it can be supplied. Further, according to the Catholic doctrine, there are two things by which the sacrament of Baptism can be supplied: namely, an act of perfect charity with the desire of Baptism, and the death as martyr. Since these two are a compensation for Baptism of water, they themselves are called Baptism, too, in order that they may be comprehended with it under one, as it were, generic name, so the act of love with desire for Baptism is called Baptismus flaminis (Baptism of the Spirit) and the martyrium (Baptism of Blood).
    17. FR. H. NOLDEN, S.J., FR. A. SCHMIT, S.J. — Summa theologiae moralis (Vol. III de Sacramentis), Book 2 Quaestio prima, 1921
    Baptism of spirit (flaminis) is perfect charity or contrition, in which the desire in fact to receive the sacrament of Baptism is included; perfect charity and perfect contrition, however, have the power to confer sanctifying grace.
    18. FR. ARTHUR VERMEERSCH, S.J., Theologiae Moralis (Vol. III), Tractatus II,1948:
    The Baptism of spirit (flaminis) is an act of perfect charity or contrition, in so far as it contains at least a tacit desire of the Sacrament. Therefore it can be had only in adults. It does not imprint a character; …but it takes away all mortal sin together with the sentence of eternal penalty, according to: “He who loves me, is loved by my Father” (John 14:21).
    19. FR. LUDOVICO BILLOT, S.J., De Ecclesiae Sacmmentis (Vol. I); Quaestio LXVI; Thesis XXIV – 1931:
    Baptism of spirit (flaminis), which is also called of repentance or of desire, is nothing else than an act of charity or perfect contrition including a desire of the Sacrament, according to what has been said above, namely that the heart of everyone is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe, and to love God, and to be sorry for his sins.
    20. FR. ALOYSIA SABETTI, S.J., FR. TIMOTHEO BARRETT, S.J., Compendium Theologiae Moralis, Tractatus XII [De Baptismo, Chapter I, 1926:
    Baptism, the gate and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire, is necessary for all unto salvation…
    From the Baptism of water, which is called of river (Baptismus fluminis), is from Baptism of the Spirit (Baptismus flaminis) and Baptism of Blood, by which Baptism properly speaking can be supplied, if this be impossible. The first one is a full conversion to God through perfect contrition or charity, in so far as it contains an either explicit or at least implicit will to receive Baptism of water… Baptism of Spirit (flaminis) and Baptism of Blood are called Baptism of desire (in voto).
    21. FR. EDUARDUS GENICOT, S.]., Theologiae Moralis Institutiones (Vol. II),Tractatus XII, 1902
    Baptism of the Spirit (flaminis) consists in an act of perfect charity or contrition, with which there is always an infusion of sanctifying grace connected…
    Both are called “of desire” (in voto)…; perfect charity, because it has always connected the desire, at least the implicit one, of receiving this sacrament, absolutely necessary for salvation.



    https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/baptism-of-blood-and-of-desire/
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #1 on: February 08, 2024, 12:06:34 PM »
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  • That article sums up my position on the issue.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #2 on: February 08, 2024, 12:19:41 PM »
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  • Sure, an article by the CMRI who also twice published an article "The Salvation of those Outside the Church", verbatim contradicting dogma.  That treatment is completely one-sided, not presenting any of the contrary evidence (of which there's mountains), and taking what they use often out of context.  It has all the hallmarks of someone with an agenda who only present a small part of the full story that support their pre-determined agenda.

    At the end of the day, the Church has not condemned BoB/BoD per se, not directly, and people are entitled to believe in it.

    At the same time, though, 95%+ of Trads simply use BoD as an excuse to get non-Catholics "saved", whereas in its original understanding it had no such extension.  They could hardly care less about the rare case of a catechumen who might die two weeks before his Baptism, but about getting all manner of Prot, infidel, heretic, schismatic, and non-Catholic saved.

    At that point, you need to just stop pretending to be a Trad because ALL of Vatican II rests upon that ecclesiology.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #3 on: February 08, 2024, 12:36:30 PM »
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  • My position is very simple:

    "There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed,
    Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation I leave to the skeptics." - Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #4 on: February 08, 2024, 01:52:49 PM »
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  • My position is very simple:

    "There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed,
    Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation I leave to the skeptics." - Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life
    .

    This is a fallacy. Actually, I see this fallacy constantly on this forum, people trying to shift the question from what DOES happen to what CAN happen.

    The question here is: What happens to someone who sheds their blood and dies for Christ before receiving baptism, with the Catholic Faith?

    The Church answer this question through her ordinary teaching and practice, that such a person is still a martyr and is in fact baptized with his blood.

    You (and Mr. Feeney) are answering a different question. The question you are answering is, "Is God able to secure baptism for someone who is unbaptized and about to die?" And of course the answer to that question is that God can do whatever He wants, but that's not the question that was asked or the one that the Church answered.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #5 on: February 08, 2024, 02:55:09 PM »
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  • This is a fallacy. Actually, I see this fallacy constantly on this forum, people trying to shift the question from what DOES happen to what CAN happen.
    What you call a fallacy, we Catholics call Divine Providence. Unless of course you can come up with a situation that God would find impossible to provide the sacrament that He Himself made necessary for salvation.(See John 3:5)

    Quote
    The question here is: What happens to someone who sheds their blood and dies for Christ before receiving baptism, with the Catholic Faith?

    The Church answer this question through her ordinary teaching and practice, that such a person is still a martyr and is in fact baptized with his blood.
    Seems someone is wrong. This is dogma:
    No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Council of Florence--Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

    "I have said that a Baptism-of-Desire Catholic is not a member of the Church. He cannot be prayed for after death
    as one of "the faithful departed." Were he to be revivified immediately after death – were he to come to life again
    – he would not be allowed to receive Holy Eucharist or any of the other Sacraments until he was baptized by
    water. Now, if he can get into the Church Triumphant without Baptism of Water, it is strange that he cannot get into the Church Militant without it. It is an odd procedure for priests of the Church Militant to be shunting people off to the Church Triumphant before these people have enrolled in the a Church Militant, which fights the good fight and preserves the Faith." - Father Feeney

    Quote
    You (and Mr. Feeney) are answering a different question. The question you are answering is, "Is God able to secure baptism for someone who is unbaptized and about to die?" And of course the answer to that question is that God can do whatever He wants, but that's not the question that was asked or the one that the Church answered.
    MR Feeney? I'm sorry for you.

    No, you ask and answer the wrong question, which is; Why would God not provide the sacrament He made necessary to one who sincerely desires it?
    Too much trouble? He's too busy with other more pressing things? They guy's presumed good intention is plenty good enough?


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #6 on: February 08, 2024, 09:36:40 PM »
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  • "If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,--which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propagation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be [Page 23] saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ." Trent Session5 Chapter3 (Emphasis mine)

    Assuming we agree on the first part (ie, the merit of our Lord Jesus Christ is necessary) those who hold BOD/BOB must state that people saved by BOD/BOB were saved by Jesus Christ but the merit of Jesus Christ was not "applied by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church". That position is anathema. 


    BOD/BOB have no form defined by the Church.

    BOD/BOB don't have a minister to "rightly administer" them (no intent to do what the Church does).

    BOD/BOB have no ritual defined to "rightly administer".

    "As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ" excludes all the unbaptized from Christ's merit.

    I pray I've helped here,
    JoeZ

     
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #7 on: February 08, 2024, 09:53:10 PM »
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  • "If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,--which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propagation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be [Page 23] saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ." Trent Session5 Chapter3 (Emphasis mine)

    Assuming we agree on the first part (ie, the merit of our Lord Jesus Christ is necessary) those who hold BOD/BOB must state that people saved by BOD/BOB were saved by Jesus Christ but the merit of Jesus Christ was not "applied by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church". That position is anathema.


    BOD/BOB have no form defined by the Church.

    BOD/BOB don't have a minister to "rightly administer" them (no intent to do what the Church does).

    BOD/BOB have no ritual defined to "rightly administer".

    "As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ" excludes all the unbaptized from Christ's merit.

    I pray I've helped here,
    JoeZ

     
    Dear JoeZ,

    Yes this is a great help. What happens when this position is anathema? What happens to the people who hold that position?


    Online AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #8 on: February 08, 2024, 09:55:17 PM »
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  • Baptism of Blood and of Desire
    From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology,
    the Fathers, Doctors and Theologians of the Church

    1. COUNCIL OF TRENT (1545-1563)
    Canons on the Sacraments in General (Canon 4):
    “If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justiflcation; let him be anathema.”

    Decree on Justification (Session 6, Chapter 4):
    “In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the ‘adoption of the Sons’ (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God’ (John 3:5).”

    2. ST. ALPHONSUS LIGUORI (1691-1787)
    Moral Theology (Bk. 6):
    “But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind␅ [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

    3. 1917 CODE OF CANON LAW On Ecclesiastical Burial (Canon 1239. 2)
    “Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized.” — The Sacred Canons
    by Rev. John A. Abbo. St.T.L., J.C.D., and Rev. Jerome D. Hannan, A.M., LL.B., S.T.D., J.C.D.

    Commentary on the Code:
    “The reason for this rule is that they are justly supposed to have met death united to Christ through Baptism of desire.”

    4. POPE INNOCENT III
    Apostolicam:
    To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of Holy Mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine’s City of God where among other things it is written, “Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.” Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned (Denzinger 388).

    Debitum pastoralis officii, August 28, 1206:
    You have, to be sure, intimated that a certain Jєω, when at the point of death, since he lived only among Jєωs, immersed himself in water while saying: “I baptize myself in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”

    We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord, when He says to the Apostles: “Go baptize all nations in the name etc.” (cf. Matt. 28:19), the Jєω mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another… If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed off to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith (Denzinger 413).
    5. POPE ST. PIUS V (1566-1572)
    Ex omnibus afflictionibus, October 1, 1567
    Condemned the following erroneous propositions of Michael du Bay:

    • Perfect and sincere charity, which is from a “pure heart and good conscience and a faith not feigned” (1 Tim. 1:5) can be in catechumens as well as in penitents without the remission of sins.
    • That charity which is the fullness of the law is not always connected with the remission of sins.
    • A catechumen lives justly and rightly and holily, and observes the commandments of God, and fulfills the law through charity, which is only received in the laver of Baptism, before the remission of sins has been obtained.
    6. ST. AMBROSE
    “I hear you express grief because he [Valentinian] did not receive the Sacrament of Baptism. Tell me, what else is there in us except the will and petition? But he had long desired to be initiated… and expressed his intention to be baptized… Surely, he received [it] because he asked [for it].”
    7. ST. AUGUSTINE, City of God
    “I do not hesitate to place the Catholic catechumen, who is burning with the love of God, before the baptized heretic… The centurion Cornelius, before Baptism, was better than Simon [Magus], who had been baptized. For Cornelius, even before Baptism, was filled with the Holy Ghost, while Simon, after Baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit(De Bapt. C. Donat., IV 21).
    8. ST. THOMAS AQUINAS
    Summa, Article 1, Part III, Q. 68:
    “I answer that, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.

    “Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: ‘I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the graces he prayed for.’”
    9. ST. ROBERT BELLARMINE, Doctor of the Church (1542-1621)
    Liber II, Caput XXX:
    “Boni Catehecuмeni sunt de Ecclesia, interna unione tantum, non autem externa”(Good catechumens are of the Church, by internal union only, not however, by external union).

    10. Roman Martyrology
    January 23: At Rome, St. Emerentiana, Virgin and Martyr, who was stoned by the heathen while still a catechumen, when she was praying at the tomb of St. Agnes, whose foster-sister she was.
    April 12: At Braga, in Portugal, St. Victor, Martyr, who, while still yet a catechumen, refused to worship an idol, and confessed Christ Jesus with great constancy, and so after many torments, he merited to be baptized in his own blood, his head being cut off.
    11. POPE PIUS IX (1846-1878) — Singulari Quidem, 1856:
    174. “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, lands, native talents, and so many other factors? Only when we have been released from the bonds of this body and see God just as He is (see John 3:2) all we really understand how close and beautiful a bond joins divine mercy with divine justice.”
    Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863):
    “…We all know that those who are afflicted with invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law that have been written by God in the hearts of men, if they are prepare to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can attain eternal life by the power of divine light and grace.”

    12. POPE PIUS XII (1939-1958) — Mystical Body of Christ (June 29, 1943):
    “As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible organization of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly… For even though unsuspectingly they are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer in desire and resolution, they still remain deprived of so many precious gifts and helps from heaven, which one can only enjoy in the Catholic Church.”
    13. FR. A. TANQUERY, Dogmatic Brevior; ART. IV, Section I, II – 1945 (1024-1)
    The Baptism of Desire. Contrition, or perfect charity, with at least an implicit desire for Baptism, supplies in adults the place of the baptism of water as respects the forgiveness of sins.
    This is certain.
    Explanation: a) An implicit desire for Baptism, that is, one that is included in a general purpose of keeping all the commandments of God is, as all agree, sufficient in one who is invincibly ignorant of the law of Baptism; likewise, according to the more common opinion, in one who knows the necessity of Baptism.
    b) Perfect charity, with a desire for Baptism, forgives original sin and actual sins, and therefore infuses sanctifying grace; but it does not imprint the Baptismal character and does not of itself remit the whole temporal punishment due for sin; whence, when the Unity offers, the obligation remains on
    one who was sanctified in this manner of receiving the Baptism of water.

    14. FR. DOMINIC PRUMMER, O.P., Moral Theology, 1949:

    • “Baptism of Desire which is a perfect act of charity that includes at least implicitly the desire for Baptism by water”;
    • “Baptism of Blood which signifies martyrdom endured for Christ prior to the reception of Baptism by Water”;
    • “Regarding the effects of Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire… both cause sanctifying grace. …Baptism of Blood usually remits all venial sin and temporal punishment…”
    15. FR. FRANCIS O’CONNELL, Outlines of Moral Theology, 1953:
    • “Baptism of Desire… is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition…”
    • “These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood and Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament.”
    • “…Even an infant can gain the benefit of the Baptism of Blood if he is put to death by a person actuated by hatred for the Christian faith….”
    16. MGR. J. H. HERVE, Manuale Theologiae Dogmaticae (Vol. III: chap. IV), 1931
    II. On those for whom Baptism of water can be supplied:
    The various baptisms: from the Tridentinum itself and from the things stated, it stands firm that Baptism is necessary, yet in fact or in desire; therefore in an extraordinary case it can be supplied. Further, according to the Catholic doctrine, there are two things by which the sacrament of Baptism can be supplied: namely, an act of perfect charity with the desire of Baptism, and the death as martyr. Since these two are a compensation for Baptism of water, they themselves are called Baptism, too, in order that they may be comprehended with it under one, as it were, generic name, so the act of love with desire for Baptism is called Baptismus flaminis (Baptism of the Spirit) and the martyrium (Baptism of Blood).
    17. FR. H. NOLDEN, S.J., FR. A. SCHMIT, S.J.Summa theologiae moralis (Vol. III de Sacramentis), Book 2 Quaestio prima, 1921
    Baptism of spirit (flaminis) is perfect charity or contrition, in which the desire in fact to receive the sacrament of Baptism is included; perfect charity and perfect contrition, however, have the power to confer sanctifying grace.
    18. FR. ARTHUR VERMEERSCH, S.J., Theologiae Moralis (Vol. III), Tractatus II,1948:
    The Baptism of spirit (flaminis) is an act of perfect charity or contrition, in so far as it contains at least a tacit desire of the Sacrament. Therefore it can be had only in adults. It does not imprint a character; …but it takes away all mortal sin together with the sentence of eternal penalty, according to: “He who loves me, is loved by my Father” (John 14:21).
    19. FR. LUDOVICO BILLOT, S.J., De Ecclesiae Sacmmentis (Vol. I); Quaestio LXVI; Thesis XXIV – 1931:
    Baptism of spirit (flaminis), which is also called of repentance or of desire, is nothing else than an act of charity or perfect contrition including a desire of the Sacrament, according to what has been said above, namely that the heart of everyone is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe, and to love God, and to be sorry for his sins.
    20. FR. ALOYSIA SABETTI, S.J., FR. TIMOTHEO BARRETT, S.J., Compendium Theologiae Moralis, Tractatus XII [De Baptismo, Chapter I, 1926:
    Baptism, the gate and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire, is necessary for all unto salvation…
    From the Baptism of water, which is called of river (Baptismus fluminis), is from Baptism of the Spirit (Baptismus flaminis) and Baptism of Blood, by which Baptism properly speaking can be supplied, if this be impossible. The first one is a full conversion to God through perfect contrition or charity, in so far as it contains an either explicit or at least implicit will to receive Baptism of water… Baptism of Spirit (flaminis) and Baptism of Blood are called Baptism of desire (in voto).
    21. FR. EDUARDUS GENICOT, S.]., Theologiae Moralis Institutiones (Vol. II),Tractatus XII, 1902
    Baptism of the Spirit (flaminis) consists in an act of perfect charity or contrition, with which there is always an infusion of sanctifying grace connected…
    Both are called “of desire” (in voto)…; perfect charity, because it has always connected the desire, at least the implicit one, of receiving this sacrament, absolutely necessary for salvation.



    https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/baptism-of-blood-and-of-desire/
    This garbage has been debunked numerous times, even I quickly did so a while back. I am not going to bother doing it all again. Catholics should simply accept what the Church teaches as if they were small children not questioning their parents.

    Quote
    Pope Eugene IV, “Cantate Domino", Council of Florence

    "It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”, unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 22), June 29, 1943.

    Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jєωs or Gentiles, whether bond or free."[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

    The 2 bold lines should be enough for any Catholic to see that baptism of blood is false. It's not hard to put 2 and 2 together. It does not matter if xyz saint fallibly taught BoB, the Saint says game goes both ways. What matters is that the Church has spoken, we should simply accept it as it is.

    Online AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #9 on: February 08, 2024, 10:03:08 PM »
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  • .

    This is a fallacy. Actually, I see this fallacy constantly on this forum, people trying to shift the question from what DOES happen to what CAN happen.

    The question here is: What happens to someone who sheds their blood and dies for Christ before receiving baptism, with the Catholic Faith?

    The Church answer this question through her ordinary teaching and practice, that such a person is still a martyr and is in fact baptized with his blood.

    You (and Mr. Feeney) are answering a different question. The question you are answering is, "Is God able to secure baptism for someone who is unbaptized and about to die?" And of course the answer to that question is that God can do whatever He wants, but that's not the question that was asked or the one that the Church answered.
    Quote
    Psalm 77

     18 And they tempted God in their hearts, by asking meat for their desires.  19 And they spoke ill of God: they said: Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?  20 Because he struck the rock, and the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed. Can he also give bread, or provide a table for his people?

     21 Therefore the Lord heard, and was angry: and a fire was kindled against Jacob, and wrath came up against Israel.  22 Because they believed not in God: and trusted not in his salvation. 
    Can God provide baptism for His elect? I certainly believe so. He Himself said it was required to enter heaven. Don't forget that John:3:5 was in response to people like yourself who doubted the words of Christ the first time. 

    Nothing is impossible for God, His elect will receive water baptism, it is more outrageous to suggest that people can circuмvent God's own decree for baptism and that God cannot provide and that man's will (desire) will suffice, BoD is borderline if not outright paganism. 


    Quote
    And there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jєωs.  2 This man came to Jesus by night, and said to him: Rabbi, we know that thou art come a teacher from God; for no man can do these signs which thou dost, unless God be with him.  3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again?  5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.




    Online AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #10 on: February 08, 2024, 10:04:32 PM »
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  • Sure, an article by the CMRI who also twice published an article "The Salvation of those Outside the Church", verbatim contradicting dogma.  That treatment is completely one-sided, not presenting any of the contrary evidence (of which there's mountains), and taking what they use often out of context.  It has all the hallmarks of someone with an agenda who only present a small part of the full story that support their pre-determined agenda.

    At the end of the day, the Church has not condemned BoB/BoD per se, not directly, and people are entitled to believe in it.

    At the same time, though, 95%+ of Trads simply use BoD as an excuse to get non-Catholics "saved", whereas in its original understanding it had no such extension.  They could hardly care less about the rare case of a catechumen who might die two weeks before his Baptism, but about getting all manner of Prot, infidel, heretic, schismatic, and non-Catholic saved.

    At that point, you need to just stop pretending to be a Trad because ALL of Vatican II rests upon that ecclesiology.
    I disagree, while the Church has not explicitly condemned it, it is indirectly refuted and contrary to what the Church has defined. We should not tolerate false ideas, especially those that harm the Church.


    Online AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #11 on: February 08, 2024, 10:06:56 PM »
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  • .

    This is a fallacy. Actually, I see this fallacy constantly on this forum, people trying to shift the question from what DOES happen to what CAN happen.

    The question here is: What happens to someone who sheds their blood and dies for Christ before receiving baptism, with the Catholic Faith?

    The Church answer this question through her ordinary teaching and practice, that such a person is still a martyr and is in fact baptized with his blood.

    You (and Mr. Feeney) are answering a different question. The question you are answering is, "Is God able to secure baptism for someone who is unbaptized and about to die?" And of course the answer to that question is that God can do whatever He wants, but that's not the question that was asked or the one that the Church answered.
    This is nonsense as the Catholic faith is given in baptism. And Florence as Stubborn quotes is very clear. And Pius 12th is also very clear, non-Catholics are not members of the Church. There is also plenty of historical evidence that Catechumans were not considered members of the Church and did not receive Christian burial.

    Also Mr Feeney... really? Show some respect, He was a valid priest and actually stood up against the scuм that blatantly denied EENS. Most trads have fallen for propaganda regarding him.

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #12 on: February 08, 2024, 10:08:37 PM »
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  • Dear JoeZ,

    Yes this is a great help. What happens when this position is anathema? What happens to the people who hold that position?
    Someone more competent than I should be solicited for the right answer, and where judgment is necessary on your part, a husband, father, or priest should be consulted. Please don't think I say this out of meanness. I truly have not the faculty to help you directly but I can say a few things.

    Not all errors rise to the level of heresy.
    Not all heresy is pertinacious, some is material only, ie those folks who think the Church teaches BOD may not know better.
    Those who take BOB/BOD to its logical extreme and include all in the Church, even as "anonymous Christians" are in a whole lot of trouble.

    JoeZ
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Online AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #13 on: February 08, 2024, 10:09:17 PM »
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  • "If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,--which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propagation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be [Page 23] saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ." Trent Session5 Chapter3 (Emphasis mine)

    Assuming we agree on the first part (ie, the merit of our Lord Jesus Christ is necessary) those who hold BOD/BOB must state that people saved by BOD/BOB were saved by Jesus Christ but the merit of Jesus Christ was not "applied by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church". That position is anathema.


    BOD/BOB have no form defined by the Church.

    BOD/BOB don't have a minister to "rightly administer" them (no intent to do what the Church does).

    BOD/BOB have no ritual defined to "rightly administer".

    "As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ" excludes all the unbaptized from Christ's merit.

    I pray I've helped here,
    JoeZ

     
    Thank you, when you combine the numerous quotes of Church teaching on this issue and it becomes abundantly clear that BoD/BoB cannot be true doctrines, and frankly contrary to sound doctrine, heretical even. 

    Offline Shrewd Operator

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #14 on: February 08, 2024, 11:13:37 PM »
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  • For Lad; Prot, infidel, heretic, schismatic, and non-Catholics
      
                 Protestants, heretics and schismatics already baptize validly in most cases. Infidels (and non-Catholics) that meet the criteria cease to be infidels in God's eyes.


    For Stubborn; Yeti is right about this. The Feeney quote is also right without excluding Yeti's position, except where it mentions the Chuch Militant. Those who meet the criteria have won the fight, they have overcome the world.

    Also, it is a deliberate act of Providence that we have canonized Saints who received BOB-BOD precisely in order to prove their validity.


    For JoeZ; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church

    Denying the application of merit by water is not the same as ALLOWING for the application in any other way.


    For Anthonypadua; Those quotes do not specify or exclude any of the forms of Baptism. The one from Pope Eugene is talking about the merit of sacrifices which, as he says, would be of no avail to someone who does not qualify for any of the form of Baptism.

    2nd Anthony; Same as Stubborn above.

    3rd Anthony; Strange coincidence that the Church has not condemned BOD-BOB. We are near the end time now. This should have been cleared up by now if it was false. VII (deliberately) misinterprets everything, even what's not otherwise in question, like the General Priesthood of the Faithful vs. the sacramental Priesthood.