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Author Topic: All the NOers seem to be semi-pelagians...  (Read 18653 times)

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Offline Augustinian

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All the NOers seem to be semi-pelagians...
« Reply #105 on: January 09, 2012, 07:02:36 AM »
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    Quote from: Augustinian

    Do you believe that the unbaptized (particularly children) are innocent of any damnable sin, painless, in bliss, and in the presence of God?


    I believe what is de fide.

    Do you believe you are an Inquisitor?


    That's an evasive answer. Do you believe in those Pelagian heresies or not? If you don't, then you should have no problem professing your Catholic faith and condemning those Pelagian doctrines.

    I'm not an official Inquisitor in the "court of the Inquisition" sense, no. I am an inquirer and defender of the teachings of the Catholic Church, as all Catholics are supposed to be.

    Offline Augustinian

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    All the NOers seem to be semi-pelagians...
    « Reply #106 on: January 09, 2012, 07:37:57 AM »
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  • Dogmatic Teachings Against Pelagianism

    Any doctrine of 'Limbo' that is understood to be a guiltless, painless, blissful place, lacking all punishment, in the presence of God, and/or in a middle place (or any place other than the Hell of the Damned) is a Pelagian Fable.



    Pope St. Zosimus, Sixteenth Council of Carthage, Canon 2 (418 AD):
    Quote
    "If any man says that new-born children need not be baptized, or that they should indeed be baptized for the remission of sins, but that they have in them no original sin inherited from Adam which must be washed away in the bath of regeneration, so that in their ease the formula of baptism 'for the remission of sins' must not be taken literally, but figuratively[/u], let him be anathema."


    Pope St. Zosimus, Sixteenth Council of Carthage, Canon 3.1 (418 AD):
    Quote
    "If any man says that in the kingdom of heaven or elsewhere there is a certain middle place, where children who die unbaptized live in bliss, whereas without baptism they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, that is, into eternal life, let him be anathema. For when the Lord says: 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God', what Catholic will doubt that he will be a partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a coheir of Christ? For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run to the left."


    Pope Gregory X, Second Council of Lyons, Profession of Faith Transcribed For Michael Palaeologus (1274 AD):
    Quote
    "The souls of those who die in mortal sin or only with original sin go down into hell, but there they receive unequal punishments."


    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Laetentur Coeli (Definition), Session 6 (1439 AD):
    Quote
    "But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains."


    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Exultate Deo (Bull of Union With the Armenians), Session 8 (1439 AD):
    Quote
    "Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the body of the church. Since death came into the world through one person, unless we are born again of water and the spirit, we cannot, as Truth says, enter the kingdom of heaven... The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt."


    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino (Bull of Union With the Copts), Session 11 (1442 AD):
    Quote
    "With regard to children, since the danger of death is often present and the only remedy available to them is the sacrament of baptism by which they are snatched away from the dominion of the devil and adopted as children of God..."


    Council of Trent, Session 5, Chapter 2, Decree On Original Sin (1546 AD):
    Quote
    "If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:--whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned."


    Council of Trent, Session 5, Chapter 4, Decree On Original Sin (1546 AD):
    Quote
    "If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers' wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,--whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema... For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a tradition of the apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation. For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    Council of Trent, Session 5, Chapter 5 Decree On Original Sin (1546 AD):
    Quote
    "If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema."


    Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 1, Decree On Justification (1547 AD):
    Quote
    "The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as has set forth in the decree on original sin,-they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated..."


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    All the NOers seem to be semi-pelagians...
    « Reply #107 on: January 09, 2012, 10:21:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Augustinian
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: Augustinian

    Do you believe that the unbaptized (particularly children) are innocent of any damnable sin, painless, in bliss, and in the presence of God?


    I believe what is de fide.

    Do you believe you are an Inquisitor?


    That's an evasive answer. Do you believe in those Pelagian heresies or not? If you don't, then you should have no problem professing your Catholic faith and condemning those Pelagian doctrines.

    I'm not an official Inquisitor in the "court of the Inquisition" sense, no. I am an inquirer and defender of the teachings of the Catholic Church, as all Catholics are supposed to be.


    I profess the Faith, and I defend it. I adhere to no heresies and I condemn all heresies that Holy Mother Church condemns.

    Do you think that St Thomas held beliefs that are heretical?

    Offline Nishant

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    All the NOers seem to be semi-pelagians...
    « Reply #108 on: January 09, 2012, 12:36:25 PM »
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  • The authorities cited do not establish the point. Here's why.

    Everyone who denies the presence of a common doctrine practically equivalent to what we now call limbo in the early patristic tradition should read the Catholic Encyclopedia article on this subject found here which Rhea earlier cited.

    Selected Excerpts

    Quote
    There is no evidence to prove that any Greek or Latin Father before St. Augustine ever taught that original sin of itself involved any severer penalty after death than exclusion from the beatific vision, and this, by the Greek Fathers at least, was always regarded as being strictly supernatural.

    Thus, according to Gregory[of nαzιanzus], for children dying without baptism, and excluded for want of the "seal" from the "honor" or gratuitous favor of seeing God face to face, an intermediate or neutral state is admissible, which, unlike that of the personally wicked, is free from positive punishment.

    In his earlier writings St. Augustine himself agrees with the common tradition ... But this [later] Augustinian teaching was an innovation in its day, and the history of subsequent Catholic speculation on this subject is taken up chiefly with the reaction which has ended in a return to the pre-Augustinian tradition.

    Pope Innocent's teaching is to the effect that those dying with only original sin on their souls will suffer "no other pain, whether from material fire or from the worm of conscience, except the pain of being deprived forever of the vision of God" (Corp. Juris, Decret. l. III, tit. xlii, c. iii — Majores).

    (Comment: This suffices to establish that no one can accuse this view of being heretical without falling into schism himself, unless he was a sedevacantist who goes centuries back. It is at the least a permissible theological opinion.)

    Only professed Augustinians like Noris and Berti, or out-and-out Jansenists like the Bishop of Pistoia, whose famous diocesan synod furnished eighty-five propositions for condemnation by Pius VI (1794), supported the harsh teaching of Petavius. The twenty-sixth of these propositions ... condemned by the pope as being "false and rash and as slander of the Catholic schools" (Denz. 526).

    This condemnation was practically the death-knell of extreme Augustinianism, while the mitigate Augustinianism of Bellarmine and Bossuet had already been rejected by the bulk of Catholic theologians.


    As to some points raised by you, Gregory,

    1. Original sin formally is, in the classic definition of the Angelic Doctor, "the privation of original justice" or, of indwelling sanctifying grace. In no wise, therefore, do I deny that those dying in original sin suffer the deprivation of the beatific vision. This follows necessarily.

    And when the indescribable blessedness of the beatific vision that the Saints enjoy in paradise is appropriately understood, it will be recognized, as said in the article, that this is a true penalty indeed, objectively considered, and those who delay baptism therefore sin grievously and incomprehensibly.

    2. I believe the above post answers "1 to 4" of your post. Now, importantly, coming to Lyons II and Florence, it must be understood that these are effectively reunion Councils. They did not define new dogmas strictly so called that had not been ironed out in the schools, but proposed to the Greeks and other schismatics the necessary objects of Catholic faith they were bound to confess. In many places these Councils repeat the view of the Angelic Doctor verbatim.

    I quote again,

    Quote
    Finally, in regard to the teaching of the Council of Florence, it is incredible that the Fathers there assembled had any intention of defining a question so remote from the issue on which reunion with the Greeks depended, and one which was recognized at the time as being open to free discussion and continued to be so regarded by theologians for several centuries afterwards.

     What the council evidently intended to deny in the passage alleged was the postponement of final awards until the day of judgement. Those dying in original sin are said to descend into Hell, but this does not necessarily mean anything more than that they are excluded eternally from the vision of God.


    3. You've already conceded that like St.John the Baptist, some were sanctified in the womb. This is the plain teaching of the Angelic Doctor, that some may be subject to a similar cleansing even now, as a kind of privilege and that such actually removes from original sin and is therefore an extraordinary means of the sacrament. This intention then may be raised up to God in prayer and the good God may see fit to grant it through His own means, or the good God may not.

    Expecting you to cite the later Councils, I mentioned Suarez who lived after Florence and even Trent as typical of what was recognized by theologians and the Church as open to free discussion. Moreover, Ludwig Ott can accurately be said to represent a peer-reviewed publication the theological consensus of Catholic scholars in the last century, all of whom were well aware of Florence.

    So it isn't a question, all told, of the Ecuмenical Councils, but of your interpretation of them which you impose without a mandate from the Church against the studied interpretation of several other theologians in the last century who were never condemned in their day.

    4. In the light of all that has been said therefore, even apart from a decision by the Catholic Church which I believe has come, for the faithful Catholic mother, say, who suffers a miscarraige, it would be lawful to submit in prayerful hope to divine Providence the intention of meeting her child in the heavenly kingdom.

    Offline Gregory I

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    All the NOers seem to be semi-pelagians...
    « Reply #109 on: January 09, 2012, 08:01:07 PM »
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  • You know, I was thinking about this last night and today, and I really want to remain within the bounds of Charity here. SO, while I disagree, I hope to do it AMICABLY, instead of self-righteously.

    So, Nishant, here is what I think:

    Quote
    As to some points raised by you, Gregory,

    1. Original sin formally is, in the classic definition of the Angelic Doctor, "the privation of original justice" or, of indwelling sanctifying grace. In no wise, therefore, do I deny that those dying in original sin suffer the deprivation of the beatific vision. This follows necessarily.

    Wait. Stop. Original sin is NOT ONLY the privation of original justice, but also the the actual personal participation in the GUILT of the sin of Adam.

    Council of Trent Session 5. Paragraph 3.

    "If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,--which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be [Page 23] saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ."

    AND part of those consequences are being under the wrath of God, a slave to the devil, subject to cupidity, and incapable of being supernaturally pleasing.

    1. "If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offence of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offence of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema."

    2. "If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:--whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned."


    And when the indescribable blessedness of the beatific vision that the Saints enjoy in paradise is appropriately understood, it will be recognized, as said in the article, that this is a true penalty indeed, objectively considered, and those who delay baptism therefore sin grievously and incomprehensibly.

    Wait. There is no PUNISHMENT where the penalty is not experienced. St. Thomas repeatedly says that the condemned infant does not know of his loss. In what therefore does his punishment consist? It is the same problem that reincarnation-ists have: Reincarnation is unjust because there can be no effective learning of mistakes because nobody knows what they did wrong in a past life. Similarly, If the unbaptized infant has no knowledge of what he has lost, there is no effective punishment, and therefore, how is justice fulfilled? Original sin is a punishable offence.

    It makes FAR MORE sense to say that the unbaptized infant is made aware of Christ and of his lack, and experiences a kind of eternal sorrow and gloom. It would be condemned to say that this view is Pelagian simply because it lacks the punishment of fire. That is what Auctorem Fide is condemning. This was the view of Peter Abelard. It is not my view however.


    2. I believe the above post answers "1 to 4" of your post. Now, importantly, coming to Lyons II and Florence, it must be understood that these are effectively reunion Councils. They did not define new dogmas strictly so called that had not been ironed out in the schools, but proposed to the Greeks and other schismatics the necessary objects of Catholic faith they were bound to confess. In many places these Councils repeat the view of the Angelic Doctor verbatim.

    I quote again,

    Quote:
    Finally, in regard to the teaching of the Council of Florence, it is incredible that the Fathers there assembled had any intention of defining a question so remote from the issue on which reunion with the Greeks depended, and one which was recognized at the time as being open to free discussion and continued to be so regarded by theologians for several centuries afterwards.

    What the council evidently intended to deny in the passage alleged was the postponement of final awards until the day of judgement. Those dying in original sin are said to descend into Hell, but this does not necessarily mean anything more than that they are excluded eternally from the vision of God.

    But it DOES, because it says they are PUNISHED. And punishment must be subjectively experienced to be JUST.

    Once again, the context is actually irrelevant. We are BOUND to understand the dogmas on their face, and as presented.

    Vatican I clearly taught that NO ONE may rescind from the clear meaning of a dogma on the grounds of a "deeper interpretation."



    3. You've already conceded that like St.John the Baptist, some were sanctified in the womb. This is the plain teaching of the Angelic Doctor, that some may be subject to a similar cleansing even now, as a kind of privilege and that such actually removes from original sin and is therefore an extraordinary means of the sacrament. This intention then may be raised up to God in prayer and the good God may see fit to grant it through His own means, or the good God may not.

    Yes, before the advent of Pentecost when Baptism was made OBLIGATORY UPON ALL. Circuмcision was not. TO whom much is given (the world) much will be required (conversion).

    Expecting you to cite the later Councils, I mentioned Suarez who lived after Florence and even Trent as typical of what was recognized by theologians and the Church as open to free discussion. Moreover, Ludwig Ott can accurately be said to represent a peer-reviewed publication the theological consensus of Catholic scholars in the last century, all of whom were well aware of Florence.

    As I said, the dogmas are clear, the teaching of the XVI council of Carthage is clear, its promulgation as the teaching of the Catholic Church is clear, its ratification at Ephesus and Nicea II is clear, and  800 years of unquestioned Augustinian teaching and the teaching of the Latin Fathers is clear.

    So it isn't a question, all told, of the Ecuмenical Councils, but of your interpretation of them which you impose without a mandate from the Church against the studied interpretation of several other theologians in the last century who were never condemned in their day.

    False. It is about adherence to the clear and manifest Augustinian teaching which the church has adopted as its own, in its OWN WORDS.

    I know it's hard, but that's the truth. History bearing witness, and the dogmas of the church.

    4. In the light of all that has been said therefore, even apart from a decision by the Catholic Church which I believe has come, for the faithful Catholic mother, say, who suffers a miscarraige, it would be lawful to submit in prayerful hope to divine Providence the intention of meeting her child in the heavenly kingdom.

    "The Roman Church teaches... that the souls of those who depart in mortal sin or with only original sin descend immediately to hell, nevertheless to be punished with different punishments and in disparate locations..."
    -Pope John XXII, Nequaquam Sine Dolore, 1321 AD

    "Likewise, whoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that Sacrament (Baptism) are alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to loose no time and run in haste to administer Baptism to infant children, because it is believed as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ."
    -Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church, Epistle 167, AD 415

    “The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life without even the grace of baptism is utterly foolish.”
    -Pope Saint Innocent I, Letter to the Bishops of the Church, 417 AD

    “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, ... but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently…”
    -Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, February 4, 1442
     Ecuмenical COUNCIL.




    Offline Gregory I

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    All the NOers seem to be semi-pelagians...
    « Reply #110 on: January 09, 2012, 11:46:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Augustinian
    If we all blindly followed Scholasticism, then we'd all end up in hell for denying several dogmas.


    That could be true, for example the DOGMA of the immaculate conception. But I BELIEVE the Franciscan defenders of this dogma were also scholastics, correct?

    I am not against Scholasticism per se. It is a fully coherent system of christian philosophical thought and has its place, for sure. The problem for me is when certain theologians appear to deny, or to mitigate, what the dogmas of the church and the teaching of the popes had been for 800 years.

    Isn't that the opposite of tradition?

    Offline Augustinian

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    All the NOers seem to be semi-pelagians...
    « Reply #111 on: January 10, 2012, 02:28:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: Augustinian
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: Augustinian

    Do you believe that the unbaptized (particularly children) are innocent of any damnable sin, painless, in bliss, and in the presence of God?


    I believe what is de fide.

    Do you believe you are an Inquisitor?


    That's an evasive answer. Do you believe in those Pelagian heresies or not? If you don't, then you should have no problem professing your Catholic faith and condemning those Pelagian doctrines.

    I'm not an official Inquisitor in the "court of the Inquisition" sense, no. I am an inquirer and defender of the teachings of the Catholic Church, as all Catholics are supposed to be.


    I profess the Faith, and I defend it. I adhere to no heresies and I condemn all heresies that Holy Mother Church condemns.

    Do you think that St Thomas held beliefs that are heretical?


    Yet you refuse to answer regarding the Pelagian doctrines.

    Thomas held several heretical beliefs, some of which were heretical prior to his birth (ex: Pelagianism) and some of which were heresy only after his death (ex: denial of the Immaculate Conception). Thomas was condemned for several counts of heresy in 1277.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    All the NOers seem to be semi-pelagians...
    « Reply #112 on: January 10, 2012, 02:57:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Augustinian
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: Augustinian
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: Augustinian

    Do you believe that the unbaptized (particularly children) are innocent of any damnable sin, painless, in bliss, and in the presence of God?


    I believe what is de fide.

    Do you believe you are an Inquisitor?


    That's an evasive answer. Do you believe in those Pelagian heresies or not? If you don't, then you should have no problem professing your Catholic faith and condemning those Pelagian doctrines.

    I'm not an official Inquisitor in the "court of the Inquisition" sense, no. I am an inquirer and defender of the teachings of the Catholic Church, as all Catholics are supposed to be.


    I profess the Faith, and I defend it. I adhere to no heresies and I condemn all heresies that Holy Mother Church condemns.

    Do you think that St Thomas held beliefs that are heretical?


    Yet you refuse to answer regarding the Pelagian doctrines.

    Thomas held several heretical beliefs, some of which were heretical prior to his birth (ex: Pelagianism) and some of which were heresy only after his death (ex: denial of the Immaculate Conception). Thomas was condemned for several counts of heresy in 1277.


    I neglected to answer your interrogation in the manner you wanted.

    I can recite any creed of the Catholic Church. I do not need to submit to you or answer you in the manner that you demand.

    Why don't you refer to him as Saint Thomas?

    Do you believe he is a canonised saint and a Doctor of the Church?

    The church did not comndemn St Thomas of heresy. Who cares if you or others did and do?

    You have already been exposed for numerous errors in this thread alone. You even have been corrected on some of them by Catholics here (including some corrections by a sympathizer of yours). Any reasonable Catholic would do well to place their trust in St Thomas rather then the likes of you.



    Offline Augustinian

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    « Reply #113 on: January 10, 2012, 03:03:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I

    But I BELIEVE the Franciscan defenders of this dogma were also scholastics, correct?


    Not all of them. Most of them adopted their own form of anti-Thomist Scholasticism after Bonaventure adopted it. Alexander of Hales was a Scholastic before him, but it wasn't really until Bonaventure (and later Duns Scotus) that it became very widespread among Franciscans. Not all of the Dominicans were Scholastics at first either.

    St. Francis and St. Dominic were not Scholastics either. Men like Bonaventure, Scotus, and Thomas departed from the spirit and intentions of the founders of these orders. Sitting in a university babbling about metaphysics and the cosmos is exactly the opposite of what St. Dominic and St. Francis envisioned for their orders.

    Quote from: Gregory I
    I am not against Scholasticism per se. It is a fully coherent system of christian philosophical thought and has its place, for sure. The problem for me is when certain theologians appear to deny, or to mitigate, what the dogmas of the church and the teaching of the popes had been for 800 years.


    It's a most incoherent system of perverse Greek rationalist syncretism. Essentially the "modernism" of the 1200's. That is why certain theologians deny and mitigate the dogmas of the Church and the teachings of the popes prior to the Scholastic era - they're modernists.

    This is why the traditionalist movement is going nowhere, and why Pius X utterly failed in his mission to stop 20th century modernism; they're trying to fight 20th century modernism with 13th century modernism. Two sides of the same coin.

    Quote from: Gregory I
    Isn't that the opposite of tradition?


    The opposite of tradition would be opposing Apostolic Tradition, which (according to all the early councils) the unanimous teachings of the fathers gives witness to, and the dogmatic teachings of the popes and councils. Certainly many theologians (especially Dominicans and most of the Jesuits later on) departed from tradition when they adopted Thomistic-Greek Pelagianism, even in the face of the Second Council of Lyons, the Council of Florence, and the Council of Trent.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    « Reply #114 on: January 10, 2012, 03:05:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roman Catholic


    You have already been exposed for numerous errors in this thread alone. You even have been corrected on some of them by Catholics here (including some corrections by a sympathizer of yours).


    I beg pardon, I think that part applies to the other one of you guys.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    « Reply #115 on: January 10, 2012, 03:08:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: Augustinian


    I'm not an official Inquisitor in the "court of the Inquisition" sense, no. I am an inquirer and defender of the teachings of the Catholic Church, as all Catholics are supposed to be.


    You appear to be an interrogator who also clearly despises at least one Saint and at least one Doctor of the Church.


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    « Reply #116 on: January 10, 2012, 03:18:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: Augustinian


     Men like Bonaventure, Scotus, and Thomas departed from the spirit and intentions of the founders of these orders. Sitting in a university babbling about metaphysics and the cosmos is exactly the opposite of what St. Dominic and St. Francis envisioned for their orders.



    Is that SAINT Thomas and SAINT Bonaventure whom you are attacking and  accusing of babbling?

    Is "Pius X" SAINT Pius X?


    Offline Augustinian

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    All the NOers seem to be semi-pelagians...
    « Reply #117 on: January 10, 2012, 03:29:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    I neglected to answer your interrogation in the manner you wanted.


    It was really a simple (set of) question(s) regarding your faith. Either you believe the unbaptized are innocent, in bliss, and in the presence of God, or you don't.

    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    I can recite any creed of the Catholic Church.


    So can the Anglicans and the Lutherans. They recite the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. But do they recite them honestly?

    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    I do not need to submit to you or answer you in the manner that you demand.


    What you're basically saying is that no one has a right to ask you whether or not you believe in heresies which you appear to be defending. Your refusal to answer is more than enough to condemn you, just like Jan Hus. If you have nothing to hide, then you wouldn't have any problem admitting your belief.

    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Why don't you refer to him as Saint Thomas?


    For the same reason you don't refer to Blessed John Paul II and Saint Josemaria Escriva.

    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Do you believe he is a canonised saint and a Doctor of the Church?


    Obviously he was canonized.

    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    The church did not comndemn St Thomas of heresy. Who cares if you or others did and do?


    Actually it did. Have you ever read any book on him or on ecclesiastical history? In his works were found several heresies and they were condemned in 1277.

    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    You have already been exposed for numerous errors in this thread alone. You even have been corrected on some of them by Catholics here (including some corrections by a sympathizer of yours). Any reasonable Catholic would do well to place their trust in St Thomas rather then the likes of you.


    Latter-day Pelagianism has been exposed numerous times in this thread. If the majority doesn't accept it, including you, that's their (and your) regrettable decision. Truth is not a democracy. And good thing it isn't, since it's so unpopular. You and the sympathizers of Pelagius have also been corrected many times, and you ignore the corrections, as if they didn't happen. Particularly that one guy who quoted the catechism which explicitly teaches that there is a middle place. A reasonable Catholic places his faith in what is the proximate rule of faith. The proximate rule of faith is the dogmatic teachings of the Church, not Thomas Aquinas and not catechisms. If Thomas Aquinas and catechisms were the proximate rule of faith, then the faith would be contradictory, schizophrenic, and opposed to the infallible councils.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    All the NOers seem to be semi-pelagians...
    « Reply #118 on: January 10, 2012, 03:40:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: Augustinian


    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Why don't you refer to him as Saint Thomas?


    For the same reason you don't refer to Blessed John Paul II and Saint Josemaria Escriva.

    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Do you believe he is a canonised saint and a Doctor of the Church?


    Obviously he was canonized.



    Do you believe in the validity and infallibility of the canonisations, of St. Thomas Aquinas, St Bonaventure, St Albert The Great, and St Pius X?

    Do you believe that Holy Church legitimately and correctly bestowed the title Doctor (of the Church) on St Thomas Aquinas and St Albert the Great?

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    All the NOers seem to be semi-pelagians...
    « Reply #119 on: January 10, 2012, 03:42:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Augustinian


    So can the Anglicans and the Lutherans. They recite the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. But do they recite them honestly?



    I recite them honestly.