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Author Topic: Aborted babies & baptism of blood  (Read 14464 times)

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Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2019, 09:35:42 AM »
And exactly ZERO mothers subject their children to abortion because they don't want their child to become Christian ... for all they'd have to do is to raise them to think otherwise and to reject Christianity.  So on all fronts applying BoB to aborted babies is an epic fail, an exercise in emotion-based pseudo-theology ... from where all anti-EENS thinking originates.
Agreed.  

(1)The only reason why abortionists kill the babies is because the MOTHERS wish it. And none of these mothers are killing their babies because they hate Christ or the Catholic Faith.

(2)  This NEED to believe that at least some of these aborted babies might be in Heaven (despite that belief going against hundreds of years of Catholic teaching) is based on emotion.  It's no different than thinking one's non-Catholic mother, sister, etc might be in Heaven because of Baptism of Desire...even though they never exhibited any interest in being Catholic while alive.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2019, 02:25:36 PM »
However it was done for the Holy Innocents.

For the 58th time, no it was not.  And, secondly, the Holy Innocents were killed on account of Our Lord.  You've been able to address neither one of these because you've already made up your mind that you would like it that aborted babies are in heaven.  

Unfortunately, due to the decay of today's society, the vast majority of those aborted babies would have ended up in hell, had they been able to live out their lives.  So even that is an act of God's mercy, that they instead end up in a place of perfect natural happiness for all eternity.  Think about the happiest you could ever imagine yourself in this life, without any pain or suffering or illness or fatigue or sadness, and that's what they get to enjoy for eternity, by God's mercy.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2019, 03:16:08 PM »
Also, the Church has never listed all the infants who were killed by Herod.  We don’t know which ones the Church declares as “Holy Innocent” or martyr.  She has never said that 100% of them went to heaven.  She only tells us to pray to those that WERE martyrs.  Even if a gentile child died and went to Limbo, they could still be called a “holy innocent” since they aren’t in hell.  The Church has never declared they are all in heaven; this is St Robert’s opinion only.  

Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2019, 04:28:06 PM »
You've been able to address neither one of these because you've already made up your mind that you would like it that aborted babies are in heaven.  
That's almost word for word what I told him at the beginning of the other thread when he started this idea of his. The man is a perfect example of what is described in 2Tim4:

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables". (2Tim4)



Dogma - “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, ... but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently…” -Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, February 4, 1442

"Likewise, whoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that Sacrament (Baptism) are alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer Baptism to infant children, because it is believed as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ." -Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church, Epistle 167, AD 415



Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2019, 05:11:35 PM »
Nonsensical argument. I agree that abortion isn't martyrdom, but your argument here(that we should let martyrdom continue because the martyrs are saved) just doesn't stand. Just because we are to embrace martyrdom rather than denounce the faith, does NOT mean we are to let our fellow Catholics be martyred. If Catholics were being into the Colosseum to be eaten by Lions if they did not renounce, they would be saved. So would we just let the practice continue and let our brothers and sister in Christ be massacred? Obviously not. Many wars were fought for the explicit purpose of saving people from martyrdom. To argue that if the unborn babies were martyred and saved, that we should not stop abortion, is the same as arguing that if Catholic pilgrims being murdered in the Holy Land were saved that the Crusaders shouldn't have fought to secure them safe passage. The Crusaders didn't decide that pilgrims being slaughtered lost its horror because those pilgrims went to Heaven, they didn't decide to just sit back and leave it happen. They still recognised it as a horrible crime demanding vengeance. So even if abortion was martyrdom(which I don't believe it is), we would still fight just as hard to stop it.

You missed the point, and you are reading far more into my words than what was actually said.  I did not make the argument that we should "let martyrdom continue because the martyrs are saved"

Geremia is conflating abortion with martyrdom.  We have pro-life rallies, giant marches down the streets of Washington DC, protests, etc., to resist abortion.  

During the Roman persecutions, they didn't have pro-Christian rallies, giant marches down the streets of Rome, protests, etc., to resist the martyrdom of Catholics.  

Yes, the early Catholics "resisted" in the sense of keeping their activities clandestine, but there was no active "resistance", such as exists now with the pro-life movement.

"And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

No one is celebrating or excusing the sin of murdering Catholics or murdering babies.  But if aborted babies are martyrs, as Geremia argues, we ought to celebrate their martyrdom as the Church celebrates the death of the early martyrs.  True martyrdom is a glorious, joyful thing.  Even in the liturgy for martyrs there are no tears.

Quote from: Introit for the Mass
In Thy strength, O Lord, the just man shall joy: and in Thy salvation he shall rejoice exceedingly: Thou hast given him his heart's desire. -- (Ps. 20. 4). For Thou hast prevented him with blessings of sweetness: Thou hast set on his head a crown of precious stones. V.: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen. In Thy strength, O Lord, the just man shall joy: and in Thy salvation he shall rejoice exceedingly: Thou hast given him his heart's desire.

Geremia's emotional, theologically bankrupt view takes the sting out of abortion.  If aborted babies get "baptism of blood" and go straight to heaven, then abortion does indeed lose its horror, for the infant has "set on his head a crown of precious stones".