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Author Topic: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?  (Read 4496 times)

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What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
« on: November 05, 2024, 09:41:23 PM »
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  • Kissing?
    Dirty talk?
    Or only explicit sɛҳuąƖ behaviour?

    I am scrupulous and have concerns.

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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #1 on: November 05, 2024, 10:10:54 PM »
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  • Matthew 5:27-28


    Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

    Jesus says:


    27 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
    28 But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman or man  to lust after her or him hath already committed adultery with her (him) in their heart.


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #2 on: November 05, 2024, 10:16:11 PM »
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  • Unchaste Thoughts and Desires
    by Fr. Johann Evangelist Zollner, 1883

    "Why do you think evil in your hearts?"--Matt. 9: 4.


    It is generally said that thoughts are free. This saying may be true before men, who cannot look into the heart, and, consequently, are not able to judge of what we think and wish, but not before God, "who searcheth all hearts and understandeth all the thoughts of minds."--Paralip. 28: 9. For this reason our Lord in the Gospel (of this day) rebukes the Scribes for thinking ill of him, saying: "Why do you think evil in your hearts?" We must give an account to God of evil thoughts and desires as well as of sinful words and works; for what we are not allowed to say and to do, we are not allowed to think of, wish, nor desire. For this reason all evil thoughts and desires are forbidden in the sixth and the ninth commandments. Numberless sins are committed by evil thoughts and desires, and on the day of General Judgment we will see how many souls are delivered to eternal perdition on account of such sins. Today I shall speak of unchaste thoughts and desires, and show you:



    I. How we can sin by unchaste thoughts and desires,
    II. How we must conduct ourselves in such thoughts and desires.


    Part I.

    Note.--When we represent to ourselves in our mind something unchaste and think of it without having the desire of seeing, hearing, or doing it, we then have unchaste thoughts. We have unchaste desires when we not only represent to ourselves something unchaste, but also desire to see, hear, or do it. By unchaste thoughts we can sin mortally, or venially, or not at all.

    1. We sin grievously,

    (a.) By unchaste thoughts, when we take voluntary pleasure in them. I say voluntary pleasure, for the pleasure in unchaste thoughts can also be involuntary where no sin is committed, proceeding only from nature corrupted by original sin. Suppose that unchaste thoughts and representations arise in your heart, in which at once you find pleasure or a sensual delight, but which you disapprove of and resist as soon as you perceive that they are sinful; in this case the pleasure in the unchaste thoughts is involuntary, because your will offers resistance, and consequently, you commit no sin. But if once you know that what you think of is unchaste and sinful, and nevertheless entertain it with pleasure without fighting against it and trying to banish it from your mind, you commit a mortal sin, because the pleasure in the unchaste thought is entirely voluntary. It is not necessary that you take pleasure in the unchaste object for any length of time; for, to entertain this voluntary pleasure only for a moment, is a mortal sin. That impure thoughts, in which we take voluntary pleasure, are grievous sins, St. Augustine teaches in these words: "If the mind takes pleasure in unlawful thoughts, which it ought to banish at their first appearance, it evidently commits a sin, and this even when it does not propose to itself to execute what it thought."

    The great doctor of the Church here does not speak of venial, but of mortal sins, because immediately after, he remarks that man must expect eternal damnation on account of such sins, unless they are forgiven him by the mercy of the Redeemer. From this you may conclude what a countless number of mortal sins Christians commit, who daily voluntarily entertain a multitude of unchaste thoughts and desires and take pleasure in them. And how many Christians are there who think lightly of these sins in thoughts and who hardly ever accuse themselves of them in the confessional.

    (b.) By unchaste desires, when they are voluntary. But they are voluntary when we perceive that what they aim at is a grievous violation of chastity, and yet use no violence to suppress them, but entertain them with pleasure. It is not necessary to make a formal resolution to undertake something or to employ means for the gratification of the unchaste desires; the mere desire of something unchaste suffices for a mortal sin, if the desire is perfectly voluntary. As of impure thoughts, so of impure desires we must remark that they are a grievous sin when they are entertained perfectly voluntarily even for a moment; for if the will turns itself totally from God, though only for a moment, it is a separation from God, and, consequently, the mortal sin is consummated. That voluntary impure desires are mortal sins is evident from the words of Christ: "But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.--Matt. 5: 28. Unchaste desires according to their nature are more grievous sins than unchaste thoughts; for it betrays a greater corruption of the heart to wish, to desire or to have the will to do wrong, than only to take pleasure in it. You are therefore obliged to declare in the confessional whether you have had unchaste thoughts or desires; and if the unchaste desires were directed to married people, near relatives, or persons consecrated to God, you must also add this, because such circuмstances not only render the sin more grievous, but also change its species.


    2. We sin venially.

    (a.) When we do not purposely provoke or deliberately entertain unchaste thoughts and desires, but are the causes of them through our own, although not grievous, fault. This generally happens when we carelessly allow ourselves looks, words and jests which are anything but decent, and of which we know only too well that they are very apt to produce unchaste thoughts and desires. If any one knows from experience that he habitually consents to such thoughts and desires, he is bound, under penalty of mortal sin, to avoid such occasions as much as possible. Examples: Looks at certain persons, intimate familiarity with them, participation in dances.

    (b.) When, instead of resisting and suppressing the impure temptation at once, we yield a little to it from inconsiderate curiosity, without, however, taking pleasure in it. Thus Eve in the beginning, when she listened to the suggestions of Satan, but did not consent to them, did not sin grievously, but she cannot be pronounced free from a venial sin, because from curiosity she entered into conversation with the tempter, instead of rejecting him with contempt. In like manner you will commit no grievous sin by entertaining unchaste thoughts and desires a little while from curiosity, but you are not free from a venial sin, because we ought to reject the temptation with all earnestness the very moment we perceive its wickedness. We must not overlook here, that all voluntary pleasure in the unchaste thoughts must be excluded, because otherwise we would no longer commit a venial, but a mortal sin.

    (c.) When we take some pleasure in impure thoughts and desires, but lack the proper deliberation or knowledge of the evil. It often happens that one is overwhelmed by an impure temptation, the wickedness of which he does not perceive at once, because his thoughts are not collected. He stops for a time in the contemplation of this sinful object, and also takes some pleasure in it, but he wants the necessary deliberation, and does not recognize at the time that what he thinks of and takes pleasure in, is something very sinful. In this case he commits only a venial sin, because he does not yet possess the necessary deliberation or knowledge of the evil. But if from the moment he preceives the sinfulness of the temptation he does not offer earnest resistance, but perseveres in it longer with pleasure, he commits a mortal sin, because the pleasure is entirely voluntary.

    (d.) Finally, when we indeed detest and resist unchaste thoughts and desires, the sinfulness of which we sufficiently know, but not with such determination as we ought. In this case the will of man is not without all fault, because it does not determinedly and strongly enough resist the temptation. Want of a sufficiently strong resistance against impure temptation is the reason why most of the venial sins against purity are committed.

    3. We do not sin at all when we find displeasure in unchaste thoughts and desires and endeavor to banish them from our mind. As long as we do not wish to sin we do not sin. Though the temptations against chastity may be very violent, though they may frequently return and last long, they are not sinful providing we do not carelessly cause them and consent to them. St. Francis of Sales says: Though a temptation may last during our whole life, it will not make us displeasing to God, providing we take no pleasure in it and do not consent to it. The temptation in which we are in a passive, rather than an active state, and in which, therefore, we take no pleasure, can in no way be imputed to us as a sin. Yes, Christians who strongly resist and banish temptations, not only commit no sin, but acquire great merits for themselves, which the Lord will richly reward in the other world.



    Part II.

    1. What ought to be our conduct in unchaste thoughts and desires? If we are assailed by impure thoughts and desires, we ought:

    (a.) To offer earnest resistance in the very beginning. The resistance must be made in the beginning, that we may not sin, for he who does not fight against and banish the impure thoughts and desires in the very moment in which he perceives them to be sinful, commits at least a venial sin, as already remarked. They must be resisted in the beginning, that we may more easily overcome them. It is with impure temptations as with a spark which falls upon an unflammable object. You can easily extinguish it and prevent a conflagration, but if you neglect it for a little while, the spark will kindle a great fire which cannot be checked and controlled at all, or only with the greatest difficulty. Hence St. Augustine says: ''If a bad thought arises in you, and you banish it at once, your heart will not be defiled by it, or at least will again obtain its purity, but if you leave it in your heart for any length of time, you can banish it only with difficulty and great labor." Hence an ancient poet says: "Resist the beginning; too late is medicine administered when by long delay the evil has grown strong."

    (b.) The resistance must be earnest. St. Ignatius very appropriately compares an impure temptation to a woman who, when she quarrels with her husband, takes to flight when she finds earnest resistance, but clamors and rages the worse the more the man shows himself timid and resists only weakly. If we show ourselves weak against our tempter, he becomes bolder and more impetuous; he will perhaps succeed in overcoming our weak resistance and win a complete victory. But if we offer an earnest and determined resistance in the beginning, he generally loses courage for the continuation of the contest, for he sees that he gains nothing by his assaults. The thought that the salvation of our soul is endangered ought to animate us to earnest resistance. What a calamity it would be to consent to the temptation and sin grievously! This resistance, however, must not be impetuous, but considerate and calm; we must avert our thoughts from the impure object and direct them to eternal truths, such as the four last things to be remembered, and to Jesus Christ, our crucified Redeemer.

    2. To call upon God for help. Solomon did this, saying: "As I knew that I could not otherwise be continent, except God gave it, and this also was a point of wisdom, to know whose gift it was, I went to the Lord and besought him with my whole heart."--Wisd. 8: 21. St. Francis of Sales says: "As soon as you perceive a temptation, do as little children who, when they see a bear or a wolf, run to their father or mother, or at least cry for help; in like manner have recourse to God and ask His help and mercy." Our Saviour himself furnishes you with this means when He says: "Pray, that you enter not into temptation." Frequently make the sign of the Cross, for, as St. Augustine says, "through the power of the Cross all the assaults of the devil are frustrated."

    3. Not to be discouraged when the temptation lasts a long time, but persevere in the use of the means, until you obtain the victory. Christians who have long and permanent temptations to endure must, first of all, consider what is the cause of these temptations, and regulate their conduct accordingly.

    (a) He who in time past has often sinned against purity, usually afterwards endures many unchaste temptations. Thus we read of the holy penitent, Margaret of Cortona, that she was very much tormented by great temptations exactly as many years as she had lived a sinful life. Christians with whom impure temptations have this origin, must humble themselves before God and mortify themselves a great deal, in order to prevent a relapse.

    (b) Impure temptations have their origin often in this, that people are not watchful enough, allow too much liberty to their senses, and do not with proper care avoid occasions. Many do not guard their eyes, those inlets of criminal passion, are too free in their intercourse with persons of the opposite sex, or nourish and foster a too sensible inclination for a certain person. Such persons are in imminent danger of losing their souls; they must stop the sources of their temptations, otherwise they can never get rid of the temptations themselves.

    (c) Many are greatly tormented by unchaste thoughts and desires without giving occasion to them, for they lead a retired, mortified life, and diligently fulfil their religious duties. Such Christians must not be disquieted, for these temptations are no loss to them, but rather gain. God permits them to be tempted in order to keep them in humility, to preserve them from tepidity and levity and to afford them an opportunity for practising various virtues and increasing their merits. They must, however, redouble their watchfulness and fervor in prayer and often excite themselves to the love of God in order to keep all danger of consenting to the temptations away. The advice may also be given to them to disclose their temptations in the confessional, for "a revealed temptation is already half conquered."--St. Philip Neri.



    https://catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/Unchaste%20Thoughts%20and%20Desires.html

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #3 on: November 05, 2024, 10:20:58 PM »
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  • The grave matter is actually the venereal pleasure that you consent to when you have these thoughts.

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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #4 on: November 06, 2024, 12:25:00 AM »
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  • Unchaste Thoughts and Desires
    by Fr. Johann Evangelist Zollner, 1883

    "Why do you think evil in your hearts?"--Matt. 9: 4.


    It is generally said that thoughts are free. This saying may be true before men, who cannot look into the heart, and, consequently, are not able to judge of what we think and wish, but not before God, "who searcheth all hearts and understandeth all the thoughts of minds."--Paralip. 28: 9. For this reason our Lord in the Gospel (of this day) rebukes the Scribes for thinking ill of him, saying: "Why do you think evil in your hearts?" We must give an account to God of evil thoughts and desires as well as of sinful words and works; for what we are not allowed to say and to do, we are not allowed to think of, wish, nor desire. For this reason all evil thoughts and desires are forbidden in the sixth and the ninth commandments. Numberless sins are committed by evil thoughts and desires, and on the day of General Judgment we will see how many souls are delivered to eternal perdition on account of such sins. Today I shall speak of unchaste thoughts and desires, and show you:



    I. How we can sin by unchaste thoughts and desires,
    II. How we must conduct ourselves in such thoughts and desires.


    Part I.

    Note.--When we represent to ourselves in our mind something unchaste and think of it without having the desire of seeing, hearing, or doing it, we then have unchaste thoughts. We have unchaste desires when we not only represent to ourselves something unchaste, but also desire to see, hear, or do it. By unchaste thoughts we can sin mortally, or venially, or not at all.

    1. We sin grievously,

    (a.) By unchaste thoughts, when we take voluntary pleasure in them. I say voluntary pleasure, for the pleasure in unchaste thoughts can also be involuntary where no sin is committed, proceeding only from nature corrupted by original sin. Suppose that unchaste thoughts and representations arise in your heart, in which at once you find pleasure or a sensual delight, but which you disapprove of and resist as soon as you perceive that they are sinful; in this case the pleasure in the unchaste thoughts is involuntary, because your will offers resistance, and consequently, you commit no sin. But if once you know that what you think of is unchaste and sinful, and nevertheless entertain it with pleasure without fighting against it and trying to banish it from your mind, you commit a mortal sin, because the pleasure in the unchaste thought is entirely voluntary. It is not necessary that you take pleasure in the unchaste object for any length of time; for, to entertain this voluntary pleasure only for a moment, is a mortal sin. That impure thoughts, in which we take voluntary pleasure, are grievous sins, St. Augustine teaches in these words: "If the mind takes pleasure in unlawful thoughts, which it ought to banish at their first appearance, it evidently commits a sin, and this even when it does not propose to itself to execute what it thought."

    The great doctor of the Church here does not speak of venial, but of mortal sins, because immediately after, he remarks that man must expect eternal damnation on account of such sins, unless they are forgiven him by the mercy of the Redeemer. From this you may conclude what a countless number of mortal sins Christians commit, who daily voluntarily entertain a multitude of unchaste thoughts and desires and take pleasure in them. And how many Christians are there who think lightly of these sins in thoughts and who hardly ever accuse themselves of them in the confessional.

    (b.) By unchaste desires, when they are voluntary. But they are voluntary when we perceive that what they aim at is a grievous violation of chastity, and yet use no violence to suppress them, but entertain them with pleasure. It is not necessary to make a formal resolution to undertake something or to employ means for the gratification of the unchaste desires; the mere desire of something unchaste suffices for a mortal sin, if the desire is perfectly voluntary. As of impure thoughts, so of impure desires we must remark that they are a grievous sin when they are entertained perfectly voluntarily even for a moment; for if the will turns itself totally from God, though only for a moment, it is a separation from God, and, consequently, the mortal sin is consummated. That voluntary impure desires are mortal sins is evident from the words of Christ: "But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.--Matt. 5: 28. Unchaste desires according to their nature are more grievous sins than unchaste thoughts; for it betrays a greater corruption of the heart to wish, to desire or to have the will to do wrong, than only to take pleasure in it. You are therefore obliged to declare in the confessional whether you have had unchaste thoughts or desires; and if the unchaste desires were directed to married people, near relatives, or persons consecrated to God, you must also add this, because such circuмstances not only render the sin more grievous, but also change its species.


    2. We sin venially.

    (a.) When we do not purposely provoke or deliberately entertain unchaste thoughts and desires, but are the causes of them through our own, although not grievous, fault. This generally happens when we carelessly allow ourselves looks, words and jests which are anything but decent, and of which we know only too well that they are very apt to produce unchaste thoughts and desires. If any one knows from experience that he habitually consents to such thoughts and desires, he is bound, under penalty of mortal sin, to avoid such occasions as much as possible. Examples: Looks at certain persons, intimate familiarity with them, participation in dances.

    (b.) When, instead of resisting and suppressing the impure temptation at once, we yield a little to it from inconsiderate curiosity, without, however, taking pleasure in it. Thus Eve in the beginning, when she listened to the suggestions of Satan, but did not consent to them, did not sin grievously, but she cannot be pronounced free from a venial sin, because from curiosity she entered into conversation with the tempter, instead of rejecting him with contempt. In like manner you will commit no grievous sin by entertaining unchaste thoughts and desires a little while from curiosity, but you are not free from a venial sin, because we ought to reject the temptation with all earnestness the very moment we perceive its wickedness. We must not overlook here, that all voluntary pleasure in the unchaste thoughts must be excluded, because otherwise we would no longer commit a venial, but a mortal sin.

    (c.) When we take some pleasure in impure thoughts and desires, but lack the proper deliberation or knowledge of the evil. It often happens that one is overwhelmed by an impure temptation, the wickedness of which he does not perceive at once, because his thoughts are not collected. He stops for a time in the contemplation of this sinful object, and also takes some pleasure in it, but he wants the necessary deliberation, and does not recognize at the time that what he thinks of and takes pleasure in, is something very sinful. In this case he commits only a venial sin, because he does not yet possess the necessary deliberation or knowledge of the evil. But if from the moment he preceives the sinfulness of the temptation he does not offer earnest resistance, but perseveres in it longer with pleasure, he commits a mortal sin, because the pleasure is entirely voluntary.

    (d.) Finally, when we indeed detest and resist unchaste thoughts and desires, the sinfulness of which we sufficiently know, but not with such determination as we ought. In this case the will of man is not without all fault, because it does not determinedly and strongly enough resist the temptation. Want of a sufficiently strong resistance against impure temptation is the reason why most of the venial sins against purity are committed.

    3. We do not sin at all when we find displeasure in unchaste thoughts and desires and endeavor to banish them from our mind. As long as we do not wish to sin we do not sin. Though the temptations against chastity may be very violent, though they may frequently return and last long, they are not sinful providing we do not carelessly cause them and consent to them. St. Francis of Sales says: Though a temptation may last during our whole life, it will not make us displeasing to God, providing we take no pleasure in it and do not consent to it. The temptation in which we are in a passive, rather than an active state, and in which, therefore, we take no pleasure, can in no way be imputed to us as a sin. Yes, Christians who strongly resist and banish temptations, not only commit no sin, but acquire great merits for themselves, which the Lord will richly reward in the other world.



    Part II.

    1. What ought to be our conduct in unchaste thoughts and desires? If we are assailed by impure thoughts and desires, we ought:

    (a.) To offer earnest resistance in the very beginning. The resistance must be made in the beginning, that we may not sin, for he who does not fight against and banish the impure thoughts and desires in the very moment in which he perceives them to be sinful, commits at least a venial sin, as already remarked. They must be resisted in the beginning, that we may more easily overcome them. It is with impure temptations as with a spark which falls upon an unflammable object. You can easily extinguish it and prevent a conflagration, but if you neglect it for a little while, the spark will kindle a great fire which cannot be checked and controlled at all, or only with the greatest difficulty. Hence St. Augustine says: ''If a bad thought arises in you, and you banish it at once, your heart will not be defiled by it, or at least will again obtain its purity, but if you leave it in your heart for any length of time, you can banish it only with difficulty and great labor." Hence an ancient poet says: "Resist the beginning; too late is medicine administered when by long delay the evil has grown strong."

    (b.) The resistance must be earnest. St. Ignatius very appropriately compares an impure temptation to a woman who, when she quarrels with her husband, takes to flight when she finds earnest resistance, but clamors and rages the worse the more the man shows himself timid and resists only weakly. If we show ourselves weak against our tempter, he becomes bolder and more impetuous; he will perhaps succeed in overcoming our weak resistance and win a complete victory. But if we offer an earnest and determined resistance in the beginning, he generally loses courage for the continuation of the contest, for he sees that he gains nothing by his assaults. The thought that the salvation of our soul is endangered ought to animate us to earnest resistance. What a calamity it would be to consent to the temptation and sin grievously! This resistance, however, must not be impetuous, but considerate and calm; we must avert our thoughts from the impure object and direct them to eternal truths, such as the four last things to be remembered, and to Jesus Christ, our crucified Redeemer.

    2. To call upon God for help. Solomon did this, saying: "As I knew that I could not otherwise be continent, except God gave it, and this also was a point of wisdom, to know whose gift it was, I went to the Lord and besought him with my whole heart."--Wisd. 8: 21. St. Francis of Sales says: "As soon as you perceive a temptation, do as little children who, when they see a bear or a wolf, run to their father or mother, or at least cry for help; in like manner have recourse to God and ask His help and mercy." Our Saviour himself furnishes you with this means when He says: "Pray, that you enter not into temptation." Frequently make the sign of the Cross, for, as St. Augustine says, "through the power of the Cross all the assaults of the devil are frustrated."

    3. Not to be discouraged when the temptation lasts a long time, but persevere in the use of the means, until you obtain the victory. Christians who have long and permanent temptations to endure must, first of all, consider what is the cause of these temptations, and regulate their conduct accordingly.

    (a) He who in time past has often sinned against purity, usually afterwards endures many unchaste temptations. Thus we read of the holy penitent, Margaret of Cortona, that she was very much tormented by great temptations exactly as many years as she had lived a sinful life. Christians with whom impure temptations have this origin, must humble themselves before God and mortify themselves a great deal, in order to prevent a relapse.

    (b) Impure temptations have their origin often in this, that people are not watchful enough, allow too much liberty to their senses, and do not with proper care avoid occasions. Many do not guard their eyes, those inlets of criminal passion, are too free in their intercourse with persons of the opposite sex, or nourish and foster a too sensible inclination for a certain person. Such persons are in imminent danger of losing their souls; they must stop the sources of their temptations, otherwise they can never get rid of the temptations themselves.

    (c) Many are greatly tormented by unchaste thoughts and desires without giving occasion to them, for they lead a retired, mortified life, and diligently fulfil their religious duties. Such Christians must not be disquieted, for these temptations are no loss to them, but rather gain. God permits them to be tempted in order to keep them in humility, to preserve them from tepidity and levity and to afford them an opportunity for practising various virtues and increasing their merits. They must, however, redouble their watchfulness and fervor in prayer and often excite themselves to the love of God in order to keep all danger of consenting to the temptations away. The advice may also be given to them to disclose their temptations in the confessional, for "a revealed temptation is already half conquered."--St. Philip Neri.



    https://catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/Unchaste%20Thoughts%20and%20Desires.html
     all voluntary pleasure in the unchaste thoughts must be excluded, because otherwise we would no longer commit a venial, but a mortal sin.


    Help me understand. I thought mortal sin requires full consent and full knowledge. The above seems to imply that if I took even a little voluntary pleasure then it's mortal sin. My confessor has said to me that it's only mortal if full consent and full knowledge is given.

    I have more to say on other parts but I will wait for this to be answered. This is very difficult for me as several times in the past after confession I did not go to communion because I feared that I withheld a mortal sin, being unsure if I gave full consent to a bad thought.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #5 on: November 06, 2024, 12:25:53 AM »
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  • The grave matter is actually the venereal pleasure that you consent to when you have these thoughts.
    How can I be certain if something is unchaste or not?

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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #6 on: November 06, 2024, 12:34:06 AM »
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  • all voluntary pleasure in the unchaste thoughts must be excluded, because otherwise we would no longer commit a venial, but a mortal sin.


    Help me understand. I thought mortal sin requires full consent and full knowledge. The above seems to imply that if I took even a little voluntary pleasure then it's mortal sin. My confessor has said to me that it's only mortal if full consent and full knowledge is given.

    I have more to say on other parts but I will wait for this to be answered. This is very difficult for me as several times in the past after confession I did not go to communion because I feared that I withheld a mortal sin, being unsure if I gave full consent to a bad thought.
    It seems the next parts answer this. I will get back after I read, am busy atm.

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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #7 on: November 06, 2024, 02:47:07 AM »
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  • (c.) When we take some pleasure in impure thoughts and desires, but lack the proper deliberation or knowledge of the evil. It often happens that one is overwhelmed by an impure temptation, the wickedness of which he does not perceive at once, because his thoughts are not collected. He stops for a time in the contemplation of this sinful object, and also takes some pleasure in it, but he wants the necessary deliberation, and does not recognize at the time that what he thinks of and takes pleasure in, is something very sinful. In this case he commits only a venial sin, because he does not yet possess the necessary deliberation or knowledge of the evil. But if from the moment he preceives the sinfulness of the temptation he does not offer earnest resistance, but perseveres in it longer with pleasure, he commits a mortal sin, because the pleasure is entirely voluntary.

    (d.) Finally, when we indeed detest and resist unchaste thoughts and desires, the sinfulness of which we sufficiently know, but not with such determination as we ought. In this case the will of man is not without all fault, because it does not determinedly and strongly enough resist the temptation. Want of a sufficiently strong resistance against impure temptation is the reason why most of the venial sins against purity are committed.
    Often when I am tempted by a bad thought or a desire for a future lawful pleasure (at least in reality if it were the future it would be lawful at that time), I do make some effort to banish it when I first realise what is happening, but even after 1 second it returns and continues and it sometimes takes me a while to realise again that my mind is capture by this. It's very frustrating as I am unsure if I give full consent or not, because sometimes there is some degree of pleasure but am I unsure if that pleasure is also a trick. 


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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #8 on: November 06, 2024, 04:01:38 AM »
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  • Brother/sister, do not worry about it too much, but immediately make acts of contrition after you think you may have fallen into mortal sin. Keep your Rosary and a crucifix near you. If you sin, kiss the crucified Christ, ask for pardon, believe His blood cleanses you, as you make acts of contrition, and go to confession at nearest opportunity. Say the 3 Hail Marys counselled by so many Saints to obtain the grace of chastity. If temptations come, strive to overcome them by the power of God's grace. But don't dwell for too long on the temptation. Turn your attention to prayers instead and say Aves or other prayers during that time. Keep yourself busy, work on the duties of your state of life. Avoid impure images and the occasions of sin. Our Lady and Our Lord will help you overcome this sin in time. Godspeed.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #10 on: November 06, 2024, 06:22:12 AM »
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  • Brother/sister, do not worry about it too much ...

    Well, it's easy to say, except that the uncertainty regarding consent can torment a scrupulous person and cause serious spiritual harm, so these can be important for many people.  It's precisely this blurriness in terms of when one has "consented" to some kind of thought that torments the scrupulous, where they sense some movement of their nature towards these types of thoughts, and confused that with a voluntary consent made with full deliberation.

    Bottom line is that if you've consented to such thoughts, you KNOW you did.  If you don't have a lax conscience, i.e. are either sensitive or scrupulous, if you're not sure that you've consented, odds are very high that you did not, since you can't consent in your will with full deliberation without being fully aware of it.

    I struggled with scruples for years ... until I was instantly cured by one priest at the SSPX (my spiritual director at STAS).  He basically told me that unless I could pretty much "swear to him on a Bible" (as it were) that I DID consent and commit a sin, he commanded me to carry on as if I hadn't.  So in obedience, I did as I was told ... and that instantly cured me of scruples that had tormented me for many years.

    But, obviously, each souls should discuss it with a good spiritual director, since this would be extremely bad advice for a lax soul.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #11 on: November 06, 2024, 06:24:38 AM »
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  • It's very frustrating as I am unsure if I give full consent or not, because sometimes there is some degree of pleasure but am I unsure if that pleasure is also a trick.

    See my previous post.  If you're trying to fight these thoughts and are "unsure" (and disturbed by the possibility of committing sin), then IMO it's all but certain (and is morally certain) that you did not consent.  If you consent, YOU KNOW ABOUT IT.  Seek the advice of your confessor of course, but, as I said, many people have a hard time distinguishing a movement of their lower nature from a consent of the will with full deliberation.  When the latter happens, you know about it for sure.

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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #12 on: November 06, 2024, 06:41:38 AM »
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  •  many people have a hard time distinguishing a movement of their lower nature from a consent of the will with full deliberation.  When the latter happens, you know about it for sure.
    Can I hear more about this.

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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #13 on: November 06, 2024, 09:15:20 AM »
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  • This is a short and fantastic book.

    How to Resist Temptation
    by Fr Francis Remler

    You've no doubt taken steps to ensure your safety and your family s from various kinds of worldly calamities. But if you haven't made sure you're properly on guard against temptations, you're setting yourself up for a spiritual disaster of immense proportions. No matter how devoted to Christ you are, temptations are going to come to you. That's why How to Resist Temptation is essential reading for every serious Catholic.

    The author, Fr. Francis J. Remler, C.M., helps you prepare yourself so that, when temptations begin to assail your soul, you'll be ready. Learn from Father's experience Fr. Remler gives you the benefit of his expertise as a confessor and shepherd of souls, as he shows you how to identify and guard against common misunderstandings of what temptation really is and what it is not misunderstandings that can paralyze your spiritual growth. He details ways you can recognize the elements of temptation and be on guard against often-unrecognized causes of individual temptations. He reveals how you can keep the memories of your past sins from troubling and tempting you now, and clarifies why God allows temptation to exist in the first place. He even explores the role of the demonic in day-to-day temptations with firm faith in God's power.

    A marvelously encouraging and optimistic book, How to Resist Temptation even contains useful directions on how you can believe it or not actually benefit from temptation, and how you can learn from others examples as you fight against temptation. So the next time the siren song of temptation starts to sound in your ears, don't try to tough out the struggle alone call on God's ever-plentiful grace, and go to battle against sin armed with the wisdom of How to Resist Temptation!


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    Re: What constitutes grave matter for lustful thoughts?
    « Reply #14 on: November 06, 2024, 09:19:49 AM »
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  • Can I hear more about this.
    Listen inside of yourself for two statements. The first says "don't" and the second says "I'm doing it anyway." This is not only about lust but also other sins that arise from anger, etc.