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Author Topic: What arguments would you use to convert non-Catholics?  (Read 579 times)

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Änσnymσus

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What arguments would you use to convert non-Catholics?
« on: April 28, 2024, 09:56:12 PM »
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    • I've heard from some person that they don't like using private revelations like Fatima when trying to convert someone because it's not required to believe for even Catholics. Would you agree with this? 

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    Also which branch would you suggest them join? Would you tell them to choose from whatever opinion seems the best to them and go there? (For example Indult, SSPX, Resistance, CMRI, RCI, etc)
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: What arguments would you use to convert non-Catholics?
    « Reply #1 on: April 28, 2024, 10:25:28 PM »
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    • One does not attempt to convert others through argument. Arguments are for apologetics. Witness of life is for conversion.
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    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: What arguments would you use to convert non-Catholics?
    « Reply #2 on: April 28, 2024, 11:09:45 PM »
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    • It depends on what the person is asking.  If they're Protestants they'd probably have to look into the Fathers and early Christian/Church history.  If they're Orthodox they have to get past Peter being the head but with that clown apostate in there now that's difficult.  If they're a doctor then Lourdes might do the trick, or the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.  It was wearing the Miraculous Medal for Alphonse Ratisbonne.  For some it might be pious stories on the Saints or for others it might be Catholic doctrine.  I think first they have to actually be asking questions in life.  If they aren't doing that then, usually, they aren't going anywhere.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: What arguments would you use to convert non-Catholics?
    « Reply #3 on: April 28, 2024, 11:11:19 PM »
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    • That was my post.  Didn't realize it was anonymous.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: What arguments would you use to convert non-Catholics?
    « Reply #4 on: April 29, 2024, 03:01:30 AM »
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    • With Protestants, I always ask "By what means could a person be saved before 1517?" 

    With Anglicans "Who founded the Church of England, Saint Augustine of Canterbury or Henry VIII?" if they answer Saint Augustine I ask "Why did the Anglicans desecrate his grave and what reparations have they made for this?" If they answer Henry VIII I ask what is the theological basis for the break from Rome. 

    A great book for learning the anti-protestant apologetics is "Where we got the Bible?" by the Rev Henry Graham

    Bear in mind, that all religions other than Catholicism contain a huge number of internal contradictions that can be used in discussions. However so few people are interested in truth that probing people about these contradictions will only work with the few people of goodwill still around. 

    Even Christ ordered his apostles not to stay around too long if no one wanted to listen to them. We also recall that Ephesus was brought to Christ under Saint John but a few years previously Saint Paul was chased out the town by the idol manufacturers. 


     
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    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: What arguments would you use to convert non-Catholics?
    « Reply #5 on: April 29, 2024, 03:03:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on April 29, 2024, 03:01:30 AM
    With Protestants, I always ask "By what means could a person be saved before 1517?"

    With Anglicans "Who founded the Church of England, Saint Augustine of Canterbury or Henry VIII?" if they answer Saint Augustine I ask "Why did the Anglicans desecrate his grave and what reparations have they made for this?" If they answer Henry VIII I ask what is the theological basis for the break from Rome.

    A great book for learning the anti-protestant apologetics is "Where we got the Bible?" by the Rev Henry Graham

    Bear in mind, that all religions other than Catholicism contain a huge number of internal contradictions that can be used in discussions. However so few people are interested in truth that probing people about these contradictions will only work with the few people of goodwill still around.

    Even Christ ordered his apostles not to stay around too long if no one wanted to listen to them. We also recall that Ephesus was brought to Christ under Saint John but a few years previously Saint Paul was chased out the town by the idol manufacturers.


     
    That was me. I forgot to click the NOT ANONYMOUS radio button
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: What arguments would you use to convert non-Catholics?
    « Reply #6 on: April 29, 2024, 08:16:12 AM »
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    • With Protestants, as the previous poster mentioned, you could focus on "how could one be saved before Martin Luther?" - Before the printing press, it would be difficult for everyone to have a Bible, and even until recent times (and likely still in parts of the world) many people were illiterate.  There are so many ways to poke holes in Bible-alone theory.  How do they know what books belong in "the Bible" without the Church to decide?  

    But a fundamental one is:  How do you know you're interpreting the Bible correctly?  If they say "it's obvious", and many will, you can quote an obviously Catholic verse, something like John 6, "Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you." - John 6:53

    Most likely, they will interpret that differently than a Catholic, and you can say that we've just demonstrated that the interpretation is not "obvious" then, since 2 people in the same room interpret it differently, and the multiplicity of Protestant sects proves this in spades. That's why one needs an infallible interpreter, i.e. the Catholic Church. 

    Not saying you're going to convince them, but at least you will have tried, in a simple way, to show that Protestantism has lots of holes in it.  As the above poster said, "However so few people are interested in truth that probing people about these contradictions will only work with the few people of goodwill still around."  And partly, they need grace to convert, so you must pray for them. 
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: What arguments would you use to convert non-Catholics?
    « Reply #7 on: April 29, 2024, 08:16:35 AM »
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    • For "non-Christians", it might depend on if they have any religion or none.  But let's say, for irreligious people, you could start with the basics: Is there a God, or isn't there a God?  Do you believe in an afterlife with reward & punishment?  Do you think all go to heaven?  Or, if you believe in hell, what would one have to do to go there?  

    If there is no God, or no hell, then why should anyone be "good" to anyone else?  If we all just evolved from apes, why can't we be like the lion in the jungle, and kill a gazelle when we're hungry?  In other words, why can't we just do what we want, when we want, if there is no punishment for doing things like murder?  

    Or, you could ask, [think of some terrible crime:]  Do you believe cold-blooded murder is wrong?  Why?  Make him justify his lack of belief in hell by contrasting it with some standard he does hold.  And, kind of like with the protestant, we need an infallible Church with authority from God to know how to interpret the Bible, we also need an infallible Church with authority from God to know what the standards of behaviour should be.  If there is no God, there is no standard, and why was anything the bad-guys of history [you could use either a villain like Mаο or Stаlin, or a favorite boogeyman from modern politics, HitIеr or Sаddаm Hussеin or Pυtin depending on your listener's opinions*] wrong or bad?  


    *It doesn't matter much how true a "villain" the example is, as long as said listener believes him to be a villain. Because you're trying to show that without an objective standard of morality, how do we judge anyone to be a villain?
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: What arguments would you use to convert non-Catholics?
    « Reply #8 on: April 29, 2024, 08:34:04 AM »
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    • Trying to convert people doesn't work.  All you can do is pray and make sacrifices for them.  And most importantly live a good, moral life.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: What arguments would you use to convert non-Catholics?
    « Reply #9 on: April 29, 2024, 08:46:23 AM »
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    • Have the person read the conversion story of Orestes Brownson: Leaves of my experience.  Brownson was the smartest guy who ever lived, so you can just play it off, "Hey man, I heard about this guy Orestes Brownson, here is his story..."  I forewarn you, the article is over hundred pages.  If the person is a non-reader, we will need to change tactics to something short and simple. 
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: What arguments would U use 2 defend the Faith with non-Catholics?
    « Reply #10 on: April 29, 2024, 08:56:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on April 29, 2024, 08:34:04 AM
    Trying to convert people doesn't work.  All you can do is pray and make sacrifices for them.  And most importantly live a good, moral life.

    While it's true that one can't convert people by argument, because it takes grace, it's somewhat of a cop-out to say that, as if Catholics should not be ready to at least defend the Faith by argument.  Absolutely, pray & make sacrifices for conversions, and absolutely, live a good moral life to give the best example possible.  But I do think it is good for Catholics to know some basic arguments so that when a non-Catholic says something against the Faith, I at least can do my best to show why they're wrong.  Otherwise, I feel like I failed in my duty.  Plus, if a non-Catholic uses some of their arguments against the Faith, and the weak Catholic doesn't know how to respond, there can be a temptation that, hey, maybe they're right!  [Or even for a 3rd party listener to think, well, the non-Catholic made more sense, and the Catholic had no good arguments.] 

    So, I think this is a worthwhile thread, even while I recognize that few people are going to be truly converted just by argument.  
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: What arguments would you use to convert non-Catholics?
    « Reply #11 on: April 29, 2024, 04:25:17 PM »
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    • It seems like in the world - in the workplace, friends of friends, etc. - you'd generally meet two kinds of people.  The first being Protestants and the second being Godless secularists.  Protestants, to their credit, have read the bible and usually want to take that angle against Catholics who usually haven't read the bible.  So knowing their Scriptural angles would be key.

    For the secularists, I think they'd be more inclined to judge the Church through the lens of history - Inquisition, Crusades, etc.

    I think those could be three areas of interest if it ever came up.  
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