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Author Topic: SSPX Fake Priests  (Read 114916 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: SSPX Fake Priests
« Reply #245 on: August 19, 2025, 10:08:01 AM »
'Fr' Stark refused the offer of conditional ordination by +ABL.  AFAIK no cleric who asked for conditional ordination was ever refused by +ABL. 

This is quite a fair article on the history of +ABL's practical position.

Also, +Lefebvre's position isn't that of God either, as it's well known that he vacillated somewhat, especially on issues like this.

In addition, the Mr. Stark episode took place during at time when +Lefebvre had swung to the left, was trying to reach a +Fellay-ite practical agreement with Rome, begging them to let him make the "experiment of Tradition" within the Conciliar pantheon.  He went left on quite a few issues in the early 1980s.  But then by 1985 or so, he swung back to the other direction.

After about the mid-1980s until several years into the +Fellay era, I have not heard of a single priest who was allowed to work with SSPX who had not received conditional ordination.  There were a couple suspects, but then when someone did a bit of digging, aka asked Bishop Williamson, in every case I know of +Williamson affirmed that a conditional had been performed.  I don't know of any cases where the presider REFUSED it either, but then much of that happened behind closed doors we'll never know, and we can't prove a negative.  HAD some priest refused in, say, the late 1980s through about the year 2000, I'm certain that the SSPX would have just said, thanks but no thanks, and go find somewhere else to exercise your ministry ... if for no other reason than they didn't want to deal with backlash from the faithful.

Bishop Williamson, for instance, felt the NO Rites were valid, but he nevertheless believed the faithful could not-unreasonably come to a different conclusion and that the had a right to be at peace about the validity of the Sacraments.  In other words, he did not have the hubris to impose his conclusion on the consciences of others like neo-SSPX are doing todya.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: SSPX Fake Priests
« Reply #246 on: August 19, 2025, 10:28:12 AM »
Frs. Pons and Giullian have been replaced at Our Lady of Sorrows, Phoenix, by Frs Buschmann and Fulton.


Offline Mark 79

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Re: SSPX Fake Priests
« Reply #247 on: August 19, 2025, 10:29:12 AM »
^^^ Me.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: SSPX Fake Priests
« Reply #248 on: August 19, 2025, 10:49:14 AM »
:facepalm:  But no one can know this.  Because the new rites do not spell out the proper intention of the Church (as do the old rites), then the new rites are dependent upon the intention of the minister.  This is not only very novel and foreign to the history of the Church, it is impossible to determine the mind of the minister (no one is God).  Cardinal Ottaviani said this is the major problem with the new mass.  And this problem extends to most new rites.

No amount of investigation can solve this problem, or prove that a bishop had the proper intention...because it was all in his mind.  This is so unique and dangerous as to make all new rites positively doubtful. 
Not so fast. That was taken ad verbatim from the May 5, 1988 Protocol signed between Archbishop Lefebvre and Cardinal Ratzinger, which was then rescinded because the Archbishop felt Rome couldn't be trusted on the issue of setting a date for the consecration of bishops, not because he disagreed with the Protocol. These can all be found in Marcel Lefebvre: The Biography by Bishop Tissier de Mallerais.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: SSPX Fake Priests
« Reply #249 on: August 20, 2025, 04:29:42 AM »
Also, +Lefebvre's position isn't that of God either, as it's well known that he vacillated somewhat, especially on issues like this.

In addition, the Mr. Stark episode took place during at time when +Lefebvre had swung to the left, was trying to reach a +Fellay-ite practical agreement with Rome, begging them to let him make the "experiment of Tradition" within the Conciliar pantheon.  He went left on quite a few issues in the early 1980s.  But then by 1985 or so, he swung back to the other direction.

After about the mid-1980s until several years into the +Fellay era, I have not heard of a single priest who was allowed to work with SSPX who had not received conditional ordination.  There were a couple suspects, but then when someone did a bit of digging, aka asked Bishop Williamson, in every case I know of +Williamson affirmed that a conditional had been performed.  I don't know of any cases where the presider REFUSED it either, but then much of that happened behind closed doors we'll never know, and we can't prove a negative.  HAD some priest refused in, say, the late 1980s through about the year 2000, I'm certain that the SSPX would have just said, thanks but no thanks, and go find somewhere else to exercise your ministry ... if for no other reason than they didn't want to deal with backlash from the faithful.

Bishop Williamson, for instance, felt the NO Rites were valid, but he nevertheless believed the faithful could not-unreasonably come to a different conclusion and that the had a right to be at peace about the validity of the Sacraments.  In other words, he did not have the hubris to impose his conclusion on the consciences of others like neo-SSPX are doing todya.
Was there not a case of two brothers, both ordained in the new rite, who joined the SSPX sometime in the 1980s?  Both were offered conditional ordination by  +ABL one accepted and the other refused.