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Author Topic: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy  (Read 2618 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
« on: April 20, 2024, 05:05:13 PM »
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  • I've been a (sedevacantist) traditional Catholic for nearly a decade.  Having come from a past of atheism, it was rather easy to dismiss protestantism and the Novus Ordo once I did a but of research.  However, I never seriously considered the claims of the Eastern Orthodox to being the true Church; claims which are not nearly so easy to dismiss.  Recently, due to a persistent nagging in my mind, I have decided that I need to pursue the truth of the matter by comparing the historical claims of each church.  Despite praying the act of faith many times a day, I find myself having serious doubts.

    Now, I'm not so much interested in refutations of their doctrines.  The reason for this is that to me it all boils down to whether or not their claim to being the Church is true or not.  If they are the Church of Christ, all their doctrines must be followed.  If the Catholic Church (as I've believed for years) has the true claim, then all of Her doctrines must be followed.  

    So I'm not looking for a defense against the errors of the Greeks per se, but a solid Catholic history dealing with the schism and the period leading up to it (perhaps also dealing with the union councils, etc.)  Particularly of interest is the disputed 8th ecuмenical council and Photius.  Much hinges on this disputed period.

    I have spoken to my priest about this, and am earnestly trying to do God's will.  I don't doubt any of the dogmas of the Church as such, and yet by doubting whether it is in fact the Church, everything has been thrown into question in my mind.   Please send me any recommendations and keep me in your prayers.  

    I have already watched a good deal of material on this including the Dimonds' various videos as well as a several part series on "the Meaning of Catholic" dealing with the topic.  At this point I need some solid books, and a good look at the sources, because frankly the history is hard to parse out.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Refutations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #1 on: April 20, 2024, 05:06:37 PM »
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  • My auto-correct switched "refutations" to "reputations" in the title. This post is an attempt to correct that.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #2 on: April 20, 2024, 05:38:56 PM »
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  • With your current doubts you shouldn't be receiving Holy Communion as doubting the faith is heresy

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #3 on: April 20, 2024, 07:33:21 PM »
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  • I've been a (sedevacantist) traditional Catholic for nearly a decade.  Having come from a past of atheism, it was rather easy to dismiss protestantism and the Novus Ordo once I did a but of research.  However, I never seriously considered the claims of the Eastern Orthodox to being the true Church; claims which are not nearly so easy to dismiss.  Recently, due to a persistent nagging in my mind, I have decided that I need to pursue the truth of the matter by comparing the historical claims of each church.  Despite praying the act of faith many times a day, I find myself having serious doubts.

    Now, I'm not so much interested in refutations of their doctrines.  The reason for this is that to me it all boils down to whether or not their claim to being the Church is true or not.  If they are the Church of Christ, all their doctrines must be followed.  If the Catholic Church (as I've believed for years) has the true claim, then all of Her doctrines must be followed. 

    So I'm not looking for a defense against the errors of the Greeks per se, but a solid Catholic history dealing with the schism and the period leading up to it (perhaps also dealing with the union councils, etc.)  Particularly of interest is the disputed 8th ecuмenical council and Photius.  Much hinges on this disputed period.

    I have spoken to my priest about this, and am earnestly trying to do God's will.  I don't doubt any of the dogmas of the Church as such, and yet by doubting whether it is in fact the Church, everything has been thrown into question in my mind.  Please send me any recommendations and keep me in your prayers. 

    I have already watched a good deal of material on this including the Dimonds' various videos as well as a several part series on "the Meaning of Catholic" dealing with the topic.  At this point I need some solid books, and a good look at the sources, because frankly the history is hard to parse out.

    Is there a female relationship in your life that would not be allowed by the Church?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Sneedevacantist

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #4 on: April 20, 2024, 07:55:34 PM »
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  • You should read Fr Fortescue's book The Orthodox Eastern Church. It's hard to find in print, but some independent publishers will make reprints of it. I'm in the middle of reading it currently, and I've learned a lot about the history of the Eastern schismatics. Fr Fortescue masterfully points out the errors at the root of the Eastern schismatics, namely their propensity for wanting to involve the secular state in everything religious rather than the appropriate ecclesiastical authorities and their blind, irrational hatred of everything Latin/western.

    I just finished reading the part about the Photian schism. I think if you read that section, you will have no doubt that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ and not the Eastern schismatics. And if you read before that the history of the see of Constantinople illicitly increasing its importance from backwater nowhere to "New Rome, second to Old Rome" (while also swallowing up the rightful places of actual apostolic sees), you can easily see that it is a sham of a church.

    Furthermore, the Eastern schismatics have no objective principle for determining what councils are ecuмenical. As a whole, they have no objective way of discerning theological truth. They have no way to objectively resolve jurisdictional disputes at the highest levels, so naturally the state gets involved.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #5 on: April 20, 2024, 09:15:35 PM »
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  • They allow divorce a few times too so I've heard, which is against the gospel.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #6 on: April 20, 2024, 11:46:09 PM »
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  • I don't doubt any of the dogmas of the Church as such, and yet by doubting whether it is in fact the Church, everything has been thrown into question in my mind.

    Tragically, if you doubt whether the Catholic Church is the True Church, you doubt ALL the dogmas of the Church.

    There's no doubt but that both the Catholics and the Orthodox have a historical / Sacramental continuity and succession ultimately from the Apostles.  Consequently, it all boils down to whether there's a Papal Authority or not.  If there isn't, then you have an inherent tendency to schism, since the Apostolic Sees would be "equals".  There would be no centralized hierarchy.  It's extremely clear from Sacred Scripture that St. Peter was made chief of the apostles and that the early Fathers considered the successors of the apostles to carry on their authority.

    Between Sacred Scripture, Apostolic Tradition, and the simple practical consideration that there's no principle of unity without a Papacy, Orthodoxy is simply unworkable.  Not to mention that the "Filioque" dispute by the Orthodox was utterly absurd.  In fact, the episode itself inherently exposes the unworkability of the Orthodox thinking, since there you had different Catholic authorities disagreeing on a point of doctrine and therefore splitting into schism over it.  Who arbitrates and settles the dispute?  With Orthodoxy, there is no final arbiter of true doctrine.

    I've never given even a second thought to the claims of Orthodoxy, as I find the to be utterly absurd.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #7 on: April 20, 2024, 11:50:17 PM »
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  • They allow divorce a few times too so I've heard, which is against the gospel.

    They claim it's consistent with the Gospel, whereas the Catholic Church, in submission to the Successor of St. Peter, have ruled otherwise?  So, who's right?  Who has the authority to settle the matter?  There's only one even-remotely-plausible source of central doctrinal authority, the man whom Our Lord designated to be the rock upon which the Church was founded.  If not the successor of St. Peter, then who?  Successor of St. Jude, successor of St. Andrew?  Who else but the Successor of St. Peter?  It's clear in the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, and the early Church Fathers that St. Peter, and then his successors, were considered to have the final and ultimate say when there was a doctrinal dispute among Christians.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #8 on: April 21, 2024, 12:14:35 AM »
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  • I've been a (sedevacantist) traditional Catholic for nearly a decade.  Having come from a past of atheism, it was rather easy to dismiss protestantism and the Novus Ordo once I did a but of research.  However, I never seriously considered the claims of the Eastern Orthodox to being the true Church; claims which are not nearly so easy to dismiss.  Recently, due to a persistent nagging in my mind, I have decided that I need to pursue the truth of the matter by comparing the historical claims of each church.  Despite praying the act of faith many times a day, I find myself having serious doubts.

    Now, I'm not so much interested in refutations of their doctrines.  The reason for this is that to me it all boils down to whether or not their claim to being the Church is true or not.  If they are the Church of Christ, all their doctrines must be followed.  If the Catholic Church (as I've believed for years) has the true claim, then all of Her doctrines must be followed. 

    So I'm not looking for a defense against the errors of the Greeks per se, but a solid Catholic history dealing with the schism and the period leading up to it (perhaps also dealing with the union councils, etc.)  Particularly of interest is the disputed 8th ecuмenical council and Photius.  Much hinges on this disputed period.

    I have spoken to my priest about this, and am earnestly trying to do God's will.  I don't doubt any of the dogmas of the Church as such, and yet by doubting whether it is in fact the Church, everything has been thrown into question in my mind.  Please send me any recommendations and keep me in your prayers. 

    I have already watched a good deal of material on this including the Dimonds' various videos as well as a several part series on "the Meaning of Catholic" dealing with the topic.  At this point I need some solid books, and a good look at the sources, because frankly the history is hard to parse out.
    If the dimonds playlist didn't convince you them perhaps another youtuber.

    Dimonds 
    https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGVSKByrYzss4weDvPDa-2SANNmPrxaqD&si=ZHb9YfPehSQJ_h45


    Look at this guy's videos on eastern orthodoxy
    https://youtube.com/@dwong9289/videos

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #9 on: April 21, 2024, 03:10:24 AM »
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  • I've been a (sedevacantist) traditional Catholic for nearly a decade.  Having come from a past of atheism, it was rather easy to dismiss protestantism and the Novus Ordo once I did a but of research.  However, I never seriously considered the claims of the Eastern Orthodox to being the true Church; claims which are not nearly so easy to dismiss.  Recently, due to a persistent nagging in my mind, I have decided that I need to pursue the truth of the matter by comparing the historical claims of each church.  Despite praying the act of faith many times a day, I find myself having serious doubts.

    Now, I'm not so much interested in refutations of their doctrines.  The reason for this is that to me it all boils down to whether or not their claim to being the Church is true or not.  If they are the Church of Christ, all their doctrines must be followed.  If the Catholic Church (as I've believed for years) has the true claim, then all of Her doctrines must be followed. 

    So I'm not looking for a defense against the errors of the Greeks per se, but a solid Catholic history dealing with the schism and the period leading up to it (perhaps also dealing with the union councils, etc.)  Particularly of interest is the disputed 8th ecuмenical council and Photius.  Much hinges on this disputed period.

    I have spoken to my priest about this, and am earnestly trying to do God's will.  I don't doubt any of the dogmas of the Church as such, and yet by doubting whether it is in fact the Church, everything has been thrown into question in my mind.  Please send me any recommendations and keep me in your prayers. 

    I have already watched a good deal of material on this including the Dimonds' various videos as well as a several part series on "the Meaning of Catholic" dealing with the topic.  At this point I need some solid books, and a good look at the sources, because frankly the history is hard to parse out.
    If the Dimonds' playlist on Eastern "Orthodoxy" didn't convince you then nothing will. You have a spiritual problem, not an intellectual one.

    That Palamism is heretical nonsense is clear as day. You are not obliged to investigate any false religions, by the way.

    I recommend praying the 15 decades each day and trusting in God.

    I wish you well. Godspeed.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #10 on: April 21, 2024, 06:08:21 AM »
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  • I've never given even a second thought to the claims of Orthodoxy, as I find the to be utterly absurd.


    THIS 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #11 on: April 21, 2024, 06:09:47 AM »
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  • You are not obliged to investigate any false religions, by the way.


    This 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #12 on: April 21, 2024, 07:19:18 AM »
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  • As someone who did consider the EO prior to conversion, I don't understand your position at all. How can one separate the doctrine with the claim to be the One True Church?  If they have errors, then they clearly are not the True Church.  No historical research is necessary.  Furthermore, where does one go to know The Truth as set forth by the EO?  Which Patriarch?   

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #13 on: April 21, 2024, 10:40:13 AM »
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  • I recommend praying the 15 decades each day and trusting in God.

    THIS ^^^

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #14 on: April 21, 2024, 10:40:53 AM »
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  • If the Dimonds' playlist on Eastern "Orthodoxy" didn't convince you then nothing will. You have a spiritual problem, not an intellectual one.

    Yes, I don't see how you could go through their videos on Orthodoxy and not coming away realizing that their claims are downright laughable.