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Author Topic: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife  (Read 47112 times)

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Offline lapetitefleur

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Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
« Reply #525 on: November 28, 2017, 01:51:23 PM »
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  • Why on earth are people getting so emotional over this. Corporal punishment was CLEARLY allowed and practiced in Catholic countries and, as has been pointed out, was even talked about by theologians who did not condemn it. Of course it should only be used when necessary; I don't think anyone here is advocating for widespread spousal abuse.  :fryingpan:
    That being said, some women need it. I am a woman, I've never been beaten...but I probably deserved it a time or two. :-[
    What if a woman is about to commit a mortal sin? Would it not be better to give her a good flogging (within a TRUSTING marriage....not with some psychotic wife who is going to go to law enforcement afterwards) than to see her fall so far from grace, potentially ruining her chance of salvation? I genuinely think it's a quicker way of resolving conflict than bottling things up and turning passive aggressive toward your spouse. It's like when I spank my toddler....matter-of-factly...quick...she apologizes, I forgive her, we move on.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #526 on: November 28, 2017, 07:42:14 PM »
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  • Defined doctrines about faith and morals do not expire.  But other matters may be contingent or changeable.  For example, at different times, the Church has taught different things about the age to begin receiving Holy Communion.  That can change even though the doctrines about the Eucharist do not expire.

    Similarly, the defined doctrines concerning marriage will not expire, but specific practices, like the age at which one may marry, can change.  That the husband is in authority over his wife is a teaching that will not expire , but specific ways in which the husband exercises his authority can change.

    So you're saying that the licitness of wife-beating is simply a disciplinary matter, then, and not a moral teaching.  Uh, no, the Church did not "teach" different things about the age to receive Communion.  You're mixing terms now and being disingenuous.  Church established various disciplines regarding the age for Holy Communion.

    But if it's subject to change, then it could be wrong, and I am entitled to question it, right?

    So you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.  You claim on the one hand that this is Church "teaching" and then on the other hand suggest that it's changeable like a Church discipline.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #527 on: November 28, 2017, 07:50:46 PM »
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  • Why on earth are people getting so emotional over this. Corporal punishment was CLEARLY allowed and practiced in Catholic countries and, as has been pointed out, was even talked about by theologians who did not condemn it. Of course it should only be used when necessary; I don't think anyone here is advocating for widespread spousal abuse.  :fryingpan:
    That being said, some women need it. I am a woman, I've never been beaten...but I probably deserved it a time or two. :-[
    What if a woman is about to commit a mortal sin? Would it not be better to give her a good flogging (within a TRUSTING marriage....not with some psychotic wife who is going to go to law enforcement afterwards) than to see her fall so far from grace, potentially ruining her chance of salvation? I genuinely think it's a quicker way of resolving conflict than bottling things up and turning passive aggressive toward your spouse. It's like when I spank my toddler....matter-of-factly...quick...she apologizes, I forgive her, we move on.

    :laugh1:

    This newbie is clearly a guy and not a woman.  You can tell by his writing style.  Nice try, Anonymous cretin, signing up for a new account and posing as a woman.  That's really pathetic.  Your use of the word "flogging" (elsewhere used by cretin) gives you away.  Very few people think first of "flogging" when discussing corporal punishment of a wife.  This phrase, in particular, would not be used by a woman but rather by some misogynist:  "not with some psychotic wife who is going to go to law enforcement afterwards".

    Uh, "lady", it's not about emotion but about principle ... whether corporal punishment of a wife is "licit".  Even some of those who advocate it in principle say that it should not be used.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #528 on: November 28, 2017, 08:02:25 PM »
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  • :laugh1:

    This newbie is clearly a guy and not a woman.  You can tell by his writing style. 
    It also seemed so to me, and the "I am a woman" was kind of jarring when I read it for that reason.    

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #529 on: November 28, 2017, 08:13:19 PM »
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  • So you're saying that the licitness of wife-beating is simply a disciplinary matter, then, and not a moral teaching.  Uh, no, the Church did not "teach" different things about the age to receive Communion.  You're mixing terms now and being disingenuous.  Church established various disciplines regarding the age for Holy Communion.

    But if it's subject to change, then it could be wrong, and I am entitled to question it, right?

    So you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.  You claim on the one hand that this is Church "teaching" and then on the other hand suggest that it's changeable like a Church discipline.
    I don't think we are using the terminology quite the same way, but I am not being disingenuous.  I am trying to communicate clearly and honestly.  The words "doctrine" "teaching" and "discipline" all refer to teaching and instruction but with different connotations.  One might say that the Church teaches to abstain from meat on Fridays and one might say that the Church teaches that Christ is really present in the Eucharist.  Even though the same word "teach" is used, they are not the same kind of teaching.  This is a limitation of language rather than me being deliberately unclear.  
    As I understand it, the licitness of corporal punishment derives from the husband's authority which is an unchanging doctrine.  The prudence of corporal punishment, however, is contingent on circuмstances.  So this is not the position you ascribed to me.
    I have been trying to make distinctions by using terms magisterial and non-magisterial teaching, but apparently that was not clear enough. Perhaps if we worked together to establish a common terminology we could communicate more effectively. 


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #530 on: November 28, 2017, 09:37:30 PM »
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  • I have been called a man on this forum before (before i was banned). I am a woman, albeit an apparently masculine woman, but a woman all the same. I have birthed two children so far, but oh well...I'm not going to try to convince either of you. :-X

    Offline lapetitefleur

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #531 on: November 28, 2017, 09:38:15 PM »
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  • that was me

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #532 on: November 29, 2017, 03:32:49 AM »
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  • The punishment above was in relation to your PREACHING against a husbands right and duty to do so.

    But even if you did not preach, and if your wife was causing sufficient grave public scandal, then I would (as magistrate) have you flogged as well as her.
    I was thinking about this and I realized that this poster is wanting to recreate an entire historical social structure in which corporal punishment of wives was a part.  This was a society that used corporal punishment to enforce the authority of virtually all superior-subject relationships.  And, the scenario described, a man being held responsible for the behaviour of his wife and punished for it, really happened.  A woman might even escape punishment by civil authorities on the assumption that she would receive it from her husband instead.  In a society like this, it would be unjust for a man not to be allowed to punish his wife because he was facing punishment himself if he did not enforce proper behaviour from her.

    I think that one could make a good case that this social structure is better than the one in which we live, but aside from that, it created a context for corporal punishment of wives that does not exist today.  This is one reason I find it problematic as a modern practice.  I am not sure how corporal punishment can function is isolation from this social context.  
    For a couple in our soiciety to practice this, there would need to be a private agreement between the husband and wife which they would need to keep a secret from others.  Rather than being a social duty of the husband, it is something that is considered a crime.  And yet, it logically follows from the existence of the husband's authority, that there ought to be a means to enforce the authority.  It creates a dilemma.

    I find this an intriguing and complicated problem.  It is a shame that forum discussions of it always seem to turn into people shouting at each other about being wife-beaters and whatever.  


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #533 on: November 29, 2017, 03:36:53 AM »
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  • I have been called a man on this forum before (before i was banned). I am a woman, albeit an apparently masculine woman, but a woman all the same. I have birthed two children so far, but oh well...I'm not going to try to convince either of you. :-X
    I was called a man for espousing this view too.  It seems to be a standard practice.  I am just grateful that you are using a name rather than being yet another anonymous poster contributing to the discussion.  It is so confusing.
    Of course, even when we are trying to use names, it is easy to omit them.  :facepalm:

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #534 on: November 29, 2017, 08:21:19 AM »
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  • As I understand it, the licitness of corporal punishment derives from the husband's authority which is an unchanging doctrine.

    earlier you wrote:
    Quote
    I think that any potential harm to the faith can be mitigated by explaining the historical context and by saying it does not apply today.

    So either it's unchanging doctrine or it's not that corporal punishment of a wife by her husband is licit.  Which do you say it is?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #535 on: November 29, 2017, 08:26:00 AM »
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  • I was called a man for espousing this view too.  It seems to be a standard practice.  I am just grateful that you are using a name rather than being yet another anonymous poster contributing to the discussion.  It is so confusing.
    Of course, even when we are trying to use names, it is easy to omit them.  :facepalm:

    No, I did not call her out as a man for espousing the view; that was due to the writing style and language used.  In particular, his equating corporal discipline of a wife with "flogging" exposes him as the Anonymous guy who was earlier calling for floggings.  Very few people immediately think of flogging when the notion of corporal discipline is raised.  Spanking or slapping is usually what first comes to mind.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #536 on: November 29, 2017, 08:28:47 AM »
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  • I was thinking about this and I realized that this poster is wanting to recreate an entire historical social structure in which corporal punishment of wives was a part.  This was a society that used corporal punishment to enforce the authority of virtually all superior-subject relationships.

    And yet my argument stands that the husband-wife relationship is not a simple unqualified superior-subject relationship but has the additional element of honor.  Very few superiors are required to honor their subjects.  This aspect of the marital relationship was never treated by the authors who advocated wife beating.  Consequently, those positions are invalidated ... since they never addressed this objection.

    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #537 on: November 29, 2017, 08:47:08 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson of The Resistance would reprimand Jaynek as a feminist for attending University.
    ?? And this coming from the "I respect my wife as an independent-thinker" side??
    I'm sorry, but even you can't play both sides, Mr. White-Knight.
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #538 on: November 29, 2017, 09:23:59 AM »
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  • earlier you wrote:
    So either it's unchanging doctrine or it's not that corporal punishment of a wife by her husband is licit.  Which do you say it is?
    Corporal punishment of a wife by her husband is licit in principle and always will be because it logically follows from an unchanging doctrine.  It is the nature of authority that it may be enforced.
    When I wrote  

    Quote
    I think that any potential harm to the faith can be mitigated by explaining the historical context and by saying it does not apply today." 
      I was trying to say that one may make a case that it does not apply in practice.  I was not sufficiently clear.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #539 on: November 29, 2017, 09:35:05 AM »
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  • Corporal punishment of a wife by her husband is licit in principle and always will be because it logically follows from an unchanging doctrine.  It is the nature of authority that it may be enforced.
    When I wrote  
      I was trying to say that one may make a case that it does not apply in practice.  I was not sufficiently clear.

    Well, as you know, I dispute the logical flow ... as per my honor argument.

    So you then believe that this is unchanging Church teaching.  And that brings us back to my earlier point, that at the very least it may be a stumbling block to those outside the Church to be confronted by "Church teaching" that it's OK for husbands to lay violent hands on their wives.  While the notion of a husband's authority over his wife cannot be compromise, I think it extremely imprudent to continue arguing in favor of this principle being Church teaching.