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Author Topic: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife  (Read 182499 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
« Reply #450 on: November 15, 2017, 08:08:56 AM »
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  • A man is lower in nature than his mother.

    False.  Cf. St. Thomas.  Our Lord was not "lower in nature" than His Mother.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #451 on: November 15, 2017, 08:09:48 AM »
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  • That's just creepy.

    Agreed.  There's something seriously wrong with this guy.


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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #452 on: November 15, 2017, 08:39:41 AM »
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  • That's just creepy.
    Agreed.  There's something seriously wrong with this guy.


    Indeed.  

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #453 on: November 15, 2017, 08:45:59 AM »
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  • ... I still say you are a wimp. ... Maybe you are anonymous for fear of no lady wanting anything to do with the likes of such, 

    ^This. 


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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #454 on: November 15, 2017, 09:58:44 AM »
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  • Traditional Catholic ladies may wish to ask any prospective husbands, before they get married, whether they think it's OK for a husband to beat his wife.


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #455 on: November 15, 2017, 10:33:30 AM »
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  • Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #456 on: November 15, 2017, 12:02:59 PM »
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  • Or abuse her in any way...
    Based on this thread I no longer wonder why my daughter says all traditional Catholic prospects she has met are "off".

    Well, if it's any consolation, my general impression from this thread is that there have been more people who disagree with husbands using corporal punishment than who were in favor of it.

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #457 on: November 15, 2017, 01:40:00 PM »
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  • The woman who does wrong is already beyond spankings from her husband.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #458 on: November 15, 2017, 02:23:11 PM »
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  • The woman who does wrong is already beyond spankings from her husband.

    Yeah, that's a very strong practical argument.  If she's not inclined to amend her ways except due to corporal punishment, she's past the point where corporal punishment would do any good.  She'll just resent the man even more and be more inclined toward wrongdoing ... just being more careful not to get caught.  If I can't trust my wife to want to correct something out of love and virtue, then it's a lost cause and corporal punishment would be useless.  In the case of adultery, for instance, that given by St. Thomas, if she did not want to amend due to contrition and love, the wife would be MORE inclined to seek the affections of another man if her husband became violent with her.

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #459 on: November 16, 2017, 12:46:00 PM »
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  • Traditional Catholic ladies may wish to ask any prospective husbands, before they get married, whether they think it's OK for a husband to beat his wife.
    If a lady is truly a traditional Catholic then she would understand that Gen 3:16 punished all women after the Fall to "be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee."
    What is dominion?  The power or right of governing and controlling; sovereign authority. rule; control;
    If the husband is truly Catholic then he will exercise his authority in a way to keep the family intact.

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #460 on: November 25, 2017, 10:18:55 AM »
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  • Do try to make distinctions.

    Abuse is not the same as dicsipline and punishment.

    God punishes women corporally with hell and purgatory.

    Men are not better than God.

    As per usual, you're skirting the actual issue.  Everyone knows the difference between abuse and punishment.  Question is who has the right to discipline whom.  I do not have the right to impose and carry out the death penalty against my neighbor; only the state can do that.  I do not have the right to discipline my parents.  This is not a question of being "better than God".  Rather, when you arrogate unto yourself the authority to discipline people you have no right to discipline, you're actually playing God, pretending that you're His equal.  My argument has been and is that the honor husbands are required to show their wives precludes using corporal punishment against them ... as the latter is degrading to them and incompatible with honor.  You guys think that by establishing the licitness of corporal punishment in the abstract you're proving that it's permissible for a husband to discipline his wife.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #461 on: November 25, 2017, 10:19:12 AM »
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  • As per usual, you're skirting the actual issue.  Everyone knows the difference between abuse and punishment.  Question is who has the right to discipline whom.  I do not have the right to impose and carry out the death penalty against my neighbor; only the state can do that.  I do not have the right to discipline my parents.  This is not a question of being "better than God".  Rather, when you arrogate unto yourself the authority to discipline people you have no right to discipline, you're actually playing God, pretending that you're His equal.  My argument has been and is that the honor husbands are required to show their wives precludes using corporal punishment against them ... as the latter is degrading to them and incompatible with honor.  You guys think that by establishing the licitness of corporal punishment in the abstract you're proving that it's permissible for a husband to discipline his wife.
    that was mine

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #462 on: November 25, 2017, 10:25:50 AM »
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  • For most women it is the THREAT of corporal discipline which is enough to keep her in line.

    :laugh1:

    For most women the threat of corporal punishment is enough to make them hate you even more.  I don't know who these "most women" are.  If your wife needs the threat of corporal punishment to do right and to avoid sin, then she's already a lost cause and you really should have married better.  If she needs the threat of corporal punishment to avoid sin, then she's likely at a point where she'll continue to sin but will do better to avoid getting caught.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #463 on: November 25, 2017, 10:26:05 AM »
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  • :laugh1:

    For most women the threat of corporal punishment is enough to make them hate you even more.  I don't know who these "most women" are.  If your wife needs the threat of corporal punishment to do right and to avoid sin, then she's already a lost cause and you really should have married better.  If she needs the threat of corporal punishment to avoid sin, then she's likely at a point where she'll continue to sin but will do better to avoid getting caught.

    also mine

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #464 on: November 25, 2017, 12:16:45 PM »
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  • As per usual, you're skirting the actual issue.  Everyone knows the difference between abuse and punishment.  Question is who has the right to discipline whom.  I do not have the right to impose and carry out the death penalty against my neighbor; only the state can do that.  I do not have the right to discipline my parents.  This is not a question of being "better than God".  Rather, when you arrogate unto yourself the authority to discipline people you have no right to discipline, you're actually playing God, pretending that you're His equal.  My argument has been and is that the honor husbands are required to show their wives precludes using corporal punishment against them ... as the latter is degrading to them and incompatible with honor.  You guys think that by establishing the licitness of corporal punishment in the abstract you're proving that it's permissible for a husband to discipline his wife.
    Ladislaus, this is a really weak argument that can't convince anyone because there are hundreds of years of the Church teaching that a husband does have a right to use corporal punishment on his wife.  There is no precedent for saying for saying it is incompatible with the honour due to a wife.  Your position just comes a cross as a novelty based on your personal interpretation of Scripture. The question of who has the right to discipline whom has been answered many times over in this regard.

    I think you could make a stronger case by acknowledging that the right exists but should be waived.   I found your argument in another thread about how this can cause scandal thought-provoking and persuasive.  There is no question that the idea of corporal punishment of a wife is shocking and disturbing to modern people, to a point where it can interfere with them accepting the Faith.  

    This reminds me of the situation that St. Paul wrote about in I Corinthians 8.  As you know, the people were arguing over whether it was permissible to eat food that had been sacrificed to idols.  St. Paul acknowledged the position of those who believed it was permissible by saying that they were right that the false gods did not not exist and the sacrifices had no real power.  But he told them that even if, strictly speaking, they had a right to do it, it was spiritually harmful to others.  He told them to consider their weaker brothers.

    The idea that we must consider the effect our actions have on others when determining the morality of the action is well established in traditional Catholic moral teaching.  This makes a much better basis for an argument against corporal punishment.