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Author Topic: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife  (Read 182518 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
« Reply #360 on: October 31, 2017, 09:44:49 AM »
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  • It is obvious that these texts are talking about two very different sorts of relationships and it is absurd to conclude that a wife should be treated the same way as a parent.

    Now you're finally getting closer to making an argument.  But, no, it's NOT "obvious".  You overstate your case ... as per usual ... because of your agenda.

    Let me help you.  One could argue that the heinous nature of striking one's parents comes as a result of the COMBINATION of the honor and their superiority and not from the honor by itself.  In the case of wives, you hold them in honor but not as superiors.  That's the "distinction" I was looking for.

    Now, for the next, part ... is this a VALID distinction?

    Answer:  no, it's not.  If I were a soldier in the army and struck my commanding officer, that would be an act of insubordination, and potentially sinful depending on the situation and the reason for it, but it would not in and of itself be an egregious and heinous an act as if I were to strike one of my parents.  So subordination by itself isn't what makes striking someone abhorrent.  But, assume for a second, that there were no Canon Law prohibiting striking religious.  Let's say I smack a nun across the face.  She's not my superior and I am not her subordinate.  But that would be a heinous thing to do based on the honor that's owed to her as a religious.

    So let's lay it out:

    Parents:  Honor + Superior ... striking = an egregious and heinous act
    Soldier + Commanding Officer:  Superior ONLY (no honor owed) ... striking USUALLLY = sinful (though not always) and not a heinous act
    Nun : Honor ONLY (not superior) ... striking = an egregious and heinous act

    Based on these examples, it's the honor alone that makes striking the person an egregious and heinous act.

    I would no more strike my wife than I would a nun.  If I were to strike my wife, I would consider it a mortal sin, would apologize to her (and try to make amends), and would go to Confession before returning to Holy Communion.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #361 on: October 31, 2017, 09:45:48 AM »
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  • No one argued against this before the 20th century.

    Ridiculous.  As per usual, you just make things up.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #362 on: October 31, 2017, 09:48:02 AM »
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  • The post made to Facebook today by the "Resistance" in favor of beating your wife is disgraceful.

    So the Anonymous clown here on CI has some ties to the Resistance Facebook page?  Maybe we can flush this guy out.

    Do you have a link to this post?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #363 on: October 31, 2017, 09:50:17 AM »
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  • More personal jabs.

    Avoiding the issue.

    Not at all.  She was merely lamenting her own situation.  Logic really isn't your strength, is it?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #364 on: October 31, 2017, 09:50:47 AM »
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  • So the Anonymous clown here on CI has some ties to the Resistance Facebook page?  Maybe we can flush this guy out.

    Do you have a link to this post?

    Bishop Williamson of The Resistance would reprimand Jaynek as a feminist for attending University.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #365 on: October 31, 2017, 09:55:46 AM »
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  • If I were to strike my wife, I would consider it a mortal sin, would apologize to her (and try to make amends), and would go to Confession before returning to Holy Communion.

    I also consider it sinful to speak to her in a derogatory or degrading manner or to otherwise degrade her by adopting an attitude that she's my slave.  And it is even more sinful to degrade her in front of the children.  Even if some rebuke might be required, it should always be made respectfully and without the children present.  Anything else would be degrading to her and a violation of her honor.

    So, for instance, even if I ask her to do something (e.g. cook dinner), the honor I owe her demands that I ask for it respectfully.  "Honey, could you please make [such and such] for dinner?"  vs. "I expect dinner to be on the table when I get back home at 5." (sinful disrespect)  Indeed, in both cases, the wife has a duty to comply and it would be a sin for her not to do so, and, if she didn't, a respectful rebuke from the husband would be in order.  But the former attitude is what's required due to the honor we owe her, while the latter attitude involves sinful disrespect.  Of course, if she doesn't have dinner waiting at 5, or else it's cold, or she accidentally burned it, I should probably just put her over my knee and spank her.

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #366 on: October 31, 2017, 09:58:48 AM »
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  • Think they were talking about this video



    Ah yes, the film, "The Quiet Man."

    Funny you should mention it, Dizzy. John Ford, who wrote and directed the film, was known as a bully in Hollywood. Not a nice guy (which shows why you like his style).

    Maureen O'Hara couldn't stand him, though she loved the film. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #367 on: October 31, 2017, 10:10:17 AM »
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  • At some point, the Anonymous wife-beater claimed that it was "contrary to nature" to be against beating one's wife.

    It's absolutely the CONTRARY.  Men are wired by nature to want to PROTECT their wives and women in general, to have a great tenderness and respect for them.  That's why we hold doors for ladies and give up our seats for them on the bus or at church.  Those are natural male instincts instilled in us by Our Creator.  Growing up, it was considered disgraceful for a boy to hit a girl, and other boys would ostracize and ridicule any boy who did so.  Those are natural male instincts.  And so I find it utterly repugnant and entirely contrary to nature for a husband to strike his wife.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #368 on: October 31, 2017, 10:37:40 AM »
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  • Frankly, I suspect that the vast majority of men who advocate striking their wives derive some sort of perverse sɛҳuąƖ pleasure from it or are otherwise insecure in their manhood.  It's not effective.  It's not prudent.  And it's degrading to a woman whom God demands that we honor.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #369 on: October 31, 2017, 11:37:59 AM »
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  • τίμα and τιμήν -- same root word.
    The command to honour parents uses an imperative verb that orders to honour.  The Greek phrase referring to women, translated as "giving honour," uses a participle (ἀπονέμοντες) that does not simply mean give, but carries the connotation "give the portion due to."  So your proof-verse is actually saying a husband should give his wife the honour due to her, considering that she is both his inferior and also his sister in Christ.  

    It is not an absolute command to honour, such as the one concerning parents, but an explanation of what a husband should keep in mind when determining how much honour he should show his wife.

    You have taken the word "honour" out of context and attempted to build your entire argument on it.  There is nothing whatsoever about the use of the word "honour" in that verse to imply that it is never permissible to use corporal punishment on a wife.  And if there were such an implication, don't you think that Catholic thinkers and teachers in the many centuries before you would have figured it out?  Why would it have taken 2000 years for a person who really understood what it meant to appear?

    Your argument is a house of cards, unsound in exigesis and lacking in logic.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #370 on: October 31, 2017, 11:47:17 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson of The Resistance would reprimand Jaynek as a feminist for attending University.
    And he would be right to do so.  Although I did not identify myself as a feminist at the time, I accepted most of their ideas.  By taking those courses (all from a Novus Ordo, Protestant, and/or secular perspective), I picked up a lot of wrong ideas and bad attitudes that I have had to unlearn after discovering traditional Catholicism.  In many ways it made me less fit to do my duties as a Catholic wife and mother.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #371 on: October 31, 2017, 11:54:12 AM »
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  • The command to honour parents uses an imperative verb that orders to honour.  The Greek phrase referring to women, translated as "giving honour," uses a participle (ἀπονέμοντες) that does not simply mean give, but carries the connotation "give the portion due to."  So your proof-verse is actually saying a husband should give his wife the honour due to her, considering that she is both his inferior and also his sister in Christ. 

    Ridiculous.  Greek isn't theological math of some kind.  There's no indication that the slightly differing phraseology has any theological significance.  Even when honoring your parents, you're giving them the amount of honor that's due to them ... since the only absolute measure of honor owed is God Himself.  This has no probative value whatsoever in this at all.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #372 on: October 31, 2017, 11:56:56 AM »
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  • Answer:  no, it's not.  If I were a soldier in the army and struck my commanding officer, that would be an act of insubordination, and potentially sinful depending on the situation and the reason for it, but it would not in and of itself be an egregious and heinous an act as if I were to strike one of my parents.  So subordination by itself isn't what makes striking someone abhorrent.  But, assume for a second, that there were no Canon Law prohibiting striking religious.  Let's say I smack a nun across the face.  She's not my superior and I am not her subordinate.  But that would be a heinous thing to do based on the honor that's owed to her as a religious.

    So let's lay it out:

    Parents:  Honor + Superior ... striking = an egregious and heinous act
    Soldier + Commanding Officer:  Superior ONLY (no honor owed) ... striking USUALLLY = sinful (though not always) and not a heinous act
    Nun : Honor ONLY (not superior) ... striking = an egregious and heinous act

    Based on these examples, it's the honor alone that makes striking the person an egregious and heinous act.

    I would no more strike my wife than I would a nun.  If I were to strike my wife, I would consider it a mortal sin, would apologize to her (and try to make amends), and would go to Confession before returning to Holy Communion.
    It would be wrong for you to strike a nun because you have no authority to do that. It was accepted for centuries that a nun's superior could apply apply corporal and other punishments to her.  The question of discipline is determined by who has authority and not by honour.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #373 on: October 31, 2017, 11:59:23 AM »
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  • Ridiculous.  Greek isn't theological math of some kind.  There's no indication that the slightly differing phraseology has any theological significance.  Even when honoring your parents, you're giving them the amount of honor that's due to them ... since the only absolute measure of honor owed is God Himself.  This has no probative value whatsoever in this at all.
    The fact that Catholic moral teaching throughout the centuries did not understand that verse the way that you do is a very good indication that your understanding is wrong.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #374 on: October 31, 2017, 12:07:44 PM »
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  • It would be wrong for you to strike a nun because you have no authority to do that. It was accepted for centuries that a nun's superior could apply apply corporal and other punishments to her.  The question of discipline is determined by who has authority and not by honour.

    For someone who prides herself in being so logical and so educated, you missed the ENTIRE point.

    According to your principle, that it's wrong to strike a nun merely because I do not have the authority to strike her, there's no difference between:

    1) I go up to some random guy in the street, get irritated with him, and punch him in the face.
           AND
    2) I go up to a nun, she says something to annoy me, and I punch her in the face.

    If you claim that these are the same thing, then you've simply lost your moral compass and likely your mind.

    No, #2 is HEINOUS AND EGREGIOUS because of the HONOR due to the nun.

    I spent the entire previous post distinguishing between the simple wrongness of a subordinate striking a superior (case of the soldier) and the egregious and heinous wrongness of a child striking a parent ... with the latter clearly being HEINOUS AND EGREGIOUS due to the honor owed the parent.  While the former might be wrong, the latter is MORE than just wrong.  And that's due to honor ... which you effectively reduce to nothing.