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Author Topic: Michael and Debbie Pearl  (Read 4911 times)

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Offline Soubirous

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Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2023, 08:33:52 PM »
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  • I know nothing about the Pearls or their writing, but if they're Independent Baptists, then there are likely some premises in their guidance to parents that are inconsistent with the most fundamental Catholic understandings of the human person with regard to free will, grace, predestination, the efficacy of the Sacraments, and probably lots more. 

    The other family may have well-behaved children, yet sometimes the actual fruits are not immediately obvious. If the parents are able to take the Pearls' instructions only as generic pointers and revise as needed to be thoroughly consistent with a purely Catholic perspective, that's one thing. But if they're unwittingly raising children in a way that's shaped by Protestant theology, then the fruits may instead turn out to be confusion and doubt.  
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #16 on: July 22, 2023, 01:48:57 PM »
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  • Their being godparents does allow them to speak with you about how you are doing with raising their godchild (within limits - I have always believed that the role of the godparent is to take responsibility in the case of e.g. the demise of the parent). I would speak with your priest about this.

    If you think their efforts are justified, then you may need to make some changes, but not under the direction of some Baptist when the traditional Catholic faith has 2000 years of wisdom on raising children. Again, consult your priest, or at least some wise older Catholic that you feel you can trust.

    I can see by this reply that you are quite humble. God bless you for this
    OP here. I'm at a little disadvantage because I was not present for the main confrontation that occurred (my spouse was). Hence the guarded language, I want to avoid implying an impression is a fact. But I am under the impression that there really will not be a way forward without reading this book. It has been fairly clearly expressed to us that our parenting is inadequate, and even more clearly expressed to us that this book is the answer to that problem. Not reading the book will only confirm their existing perception. 

    It is a difficult spot to be in for a few reasons. Naturally, we feel defensive. But we really do not want to be combative, resentful, or vindictive (sentiments which are easy enough to come by even before having our parenting fall under scrutiny). However, we really cannot just "let it go" either, due to the nature of the relationships in play. So we will read the book to better understand where our friends are coming from, although with little hope that it (the book) pays off in its advertisements of being a turnkey solution for all parents and all children (if I exaggerate here, the exaggeration is very slight). We will then discuss it with them. 

    We will, I am sure, have criticisms of the material. Assuming our friends have not exaggerated their own reliance on it, any criticism we have will naturally reflect on their own parenting. This is one of my greatest sources of resentment.  I find it very distasteful to have been put in a situation where the only way to give an account of ourselves is to say what we find erroneous about our friends' parenting strategy (and this would not be a problem if the material in question had not been presented as a complete blueprint/system of child rearing-- now the wheat and the chaff can't be separated). What I am hoping and praying is that through this experience, some important lessons can be learned-- if nothing else, lessons in tact. And maybe more. As you can see given the nature of the problem, the danger for pride and vengeance is very high. Please pray for us. 


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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #17 on: July 22, 2023, 01:57:26 PM »
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  • OP here. I'm at a little disadvantage because I was not present for the main confrontation that occurred (my spouse was). Hence the guarded language, I want to avoid implying an impression is a fact. But I am under the impression that there really will not be a way forward without reading this book. It has been fairly clearly expressed to us that our parenting is inadequate, and even more clearly expressed to us that this book is the answer to that problem. Not reading the book will only confirm their existing perception.

    It is a difficult spot to be in for a few reasons. Naturally, we feel defensive. But we really do not want to be combative, resentful, or vindictive (sentiments which are easy enough to come by even before having our parenting fall under scrutiny). However, we really cannot just "let it go" either, due to the nature of the relationships in play. So we will read the book to better understand where our friends are coming from, although with little hope that it (the book) pays off in its advertisements of being a turnkey solution for all parents and all children (if I exaggerate here, the exaggeration is very slight). We will then discuss it with them.

    We will, I am sure, have criticisms of the material. Assuming our friends have not exaggerated their own reliance on it, any criticism we have will naturally reflect on their own parenting. This is one of my greatest sources of resentment.  I find it very distasteful to have been put in a situation where the only way to give an account of ourselves is to say what we find erroneous about our friends' parenting strategy (and this would not be a problem if the material in question had not been presented as a complete blueprint/system of child rearing-- now the wheat and the chaff can't be separated). What I am hoping and praying is that through this experience, some important lessons can be learned-- if nothing else, lessons in tact. And maybe more. As you can see given the nature of the problem, the danger for pride and vengeance is very high. Please pray for us.
    If you do read the protestant book, I hope that you will give an honest critique of it to the parties concerned. An Catholic critique. You seem like a very honest person, who doesn't want to offend anyone. That's okay. You can give an honest Catholic critique in a kind and respectful manner. Of course it could be that you might not know what a proper Catholic response should be. Pray about it ahead of time. Ask Our Lord and Our Lady to help you.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #18 on: July 22, 2023, 02:09:44 PM »
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  • Pope Pius XI, Allocution, December 20, 1926: “Catholics may not support, favor, or read papers which are edited by men whose writings are in notable opposition to Catholic doctrine in faith and morals...”

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #19 on: July 22, 2023, 04:16:14 PM »
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  • OP, before you read any of their books there are certain things that you ought to know. Go to their website https://nogreaterjoy.org/about-us/meet-the-pearls/

    They have no  higher authority than their own. In other words the have no Church that they are committed to. It is implicit that they deny there is any Church but an autonomous one but you will see. Especially there statement of faith. A bit short on time here or I would be more specific.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024


    Offline Chris Z

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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #20 on: July 22, 2023, 04:27:41 PM »
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  • My wife and I have read their books.  Our conclusion, (we've been married 24 years, and are still raising our 12 children) is that you're better off studying the 4 temperaments and applying that information to the training and disciplining of your children.  It is my understanding that most traditional Catholic seminaries, and teaching sisters of old, studied and applied this information as a means of better understanding each person, his strengths and weaknesses and how to form them properly, and completely.  A soul properly formed is more willing to seek out is proper end.  

    Knowledge of the temperaments also is greatly helpful in dealing with your spouse, aiding in marital unity, which also aids in the raising of the children.

    cz

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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #21 on: July 23, 2023, 12:48:27 AM »
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  • My wife and I have read their books.  Our conclusion, (we've been married 24 years, and are still raising our 12 children) is that you're better off studying the 4 temperaments and applying that information to the training and disciplining of your children.  It is my understanding that most traditional Catholic seminaries, and teaching sisters of old, studied and applied this information as a means of better understanding each person, his strengths and weaknesses and how to form them properly, and completely.  A soul properly formed is more willing to seek out is proper end. 

    Knowledge of the temperaments also is greatly helpful in dealing with your spouse, aiding in marital unity, which also aids in the raising of the children.

    cz
    This is essentially what we do now. (temperament based training/discipline). I like how you've said it... "A soul properly formed is more willing to seek out its proper end." Well put!

    We started (and finished) the first Pearl book we were given today and took notes. Fundamentally, it is a behavior modification manual designed to get children to obey, with the primary methods being different forms of physical punishment. The fundamental goal of the different punishments they recommend is to break the child's will so that they do not resist you.

    Obviously with very small children, a great deal of obedience training is done through behavior modification because those children do not yet have reason. But I would be very concerned if one's approach to character formation, discipline, etc. was based on the material in this book. The authors by no means restrict the method only to pre-rational children. 

    Never is the prudence of the parent invoked (virtue, as a concept, is I think entirely absent from the book). Denied is the possibility that different children require different approaches. The authors emphasize the importance of breaking (not molding) children's wills. The idea of warnings, second chances, and mercy are  absent from what I can tell. With some frequency, the authors compare child rearing to the training of farm animals. These analogies, along with their methods, go to show that a very materialist-behaviorist philosophy is informing the methods in question. 

    None of the faculties of the soul are accounted for by the authors, and as such, I would not expect the advice in this book to contribute to intellectual or moral development at all. I think it will be very effective in simulating a well-raised child, because the consistent application of the kinds of punishments described therein will make children terrified of disobedience (this is appropriate for very small children I think). As such, children raised this way will likely do as they are told. They will learn not to show the slightest sign of resistance or hesitation, since these are punished alongside actual disobedience. 

    I think, among other things, a major risk run by relying on these methods is that when such children are adults, they will be unable to make their own decisions (instead, looking for their parents to tell them what to do). I noticed that, in fact, all of the Pearls' children are employed by the Pearls. This of course makes perfect sense. If their parents' fundamental goal in raising them was to break their wills, how can they be expected to do things on their own or for themselves? For girls called to marriage this is not as big a problem, but for boys it can be devastating, turning them into grown men who need their parents' say-so and validation with every decision. 

    Honestly, I think that people raised by a book like this are exactly the kinds of people who would buy a book like this. There are no principles to interpret or apply. Good judgment, prudence, wisdom, etc. are irrelevant. Just do what the book says. 

    I am still processing and considering the information in the book. I may have more to add later. 

    Offline jen51

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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #22 on: July 23, 2023, 04:55:30 AM »
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  • I wish I had more time to reply to this. I’ll give you a better explanation of my opinions on the book when I get a minute!

    The book is mostly a big “NO” for me. As a young mother I sympathized with it, but as I grow into motherhood more I’d say that the principles contained there in are simplistic, short-sighted and far too rigorous and inflexible. Typical Baptist extremism.

    I am a mother, not a father, so I speak with a motherly perspective. These books address training in behavior, not training of the heart and inner workings of a child’s individual soul. Follow their rules of child rearing and YES you will have obedient children but they really miss the point of raising children, IMO. A parent can gloat about a nest full of obedient children that make them look good but if they have not touched their children’s hearts, to guide them in developing a healthy conscience based out of love of God over mere fear, then they have failed.

    That’s pretty irksome about your friends. I’m sorry that this book has caused such a stink in your friendship. I’d be frustrated with the situation as well!

    Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.
    ~James 1:27


    Offline jvk

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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #23 on: July 25, 2023, 02:33:11 PM »
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  • Agreed 100% with your reply, Jen.  You said it so well!  If you can't raise your children to obey out of love of God, well...one has rather missed the boat.

    OP: If you're looking for a good child-raising book, I can recommend 3.  One is "Sins of the Parents" by Fr. Daniel Lord, "Raising Good Catholic Children" by Mary Reed Newland, and "Christ in the Home" (can't remember the author).  I've read all 3, and can vouch for their sound good sense.  

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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #24 on: October 25, 2023, 11:40:31 AM »
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  • I don't know much about their book, but it seems notable that the title is a phrase only found in Protestant bibles (Proverbs 22:6).  It seems the phrase is in Hebrew texts, but not in the Greek Septuagint.

    King James Version:
    "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

    Douay Rheims:
    "It is a proverb: A young man according to his way, even when he is old he will not depart from it."

    Knox:
    "There is a proverb; a boy will keep the course he has begun; even when he grows old, he will not leave it."

    Knox gives a footnote that reads:
    "In the Hebrew text, the verse beginning ‘Train a boy according to the measure of his way’; but, even when this correction is made, the sense of the maxim remains uncertain."

    Having a parenting book written by protestants is tolerable, but I don't think I could tolerate one where the entire theme and title is based on a Protestant scriptural passage not found in Catholic English translations.  Maybe there's nothing wrong with the ideas in the book, but the fact about the theme and title alone is just too much Protty-ness for me.



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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #25 on: October 25, 2023, 02:27:25 PM »
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  • Why would I read anything about religion written by a protestant heretic?


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #26 on: October 25, 2023, 02:39:55 PM »
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  • Pope Pius XI, Allocution, December 20, 1926: “Catholics may not support, favor, or read papers which are edited by men whose writings are in notable opposition to Catholic doctrine in faith and morals...”
    .

    Yes, indeed. This is the answer to this entire thread. This is the law of the Church.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #27 on: October 25, 2023, 02:44:26 PM »
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  • The telling was very direct, not underhanded. It was stated in no uncertain terms that we are dealing with them inadequately.

    It is complicated, and I was not eager to bring this part up since my original question, I think, doesn't depend on this much context. They are neighbors and Godparents to one of our children. I think it was regarded as a duty of sorts on their part. In my opinion the way it was conducted was very poor, but I think the effort could probably be justified even if their judgment and execution were askew (and I believe both were).
    .

    So the truth comes out. The godparents are admonishing you that you are not raising their godchild properly and are giving you a blueprint for how to raise them correctly. You don't want to listen to them and are trying to make the issue about the blueprint they are giving you instead of about why the conversation happened in the first place.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #28 on: October 25, 2023, 03:33:49 PM »
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  • Jen did answer very well.  It brought thoughts to mind: Leave it to Beaver.  IMO this show was communistic.  How to raise well disciplined children, with no God.

    I met a lawyer at a wedding reception.  His one and only son was very well mannered.  I said this to the lawyer(father).  Oh, yes, he was proud of his son.  I knew the lawyer(father) was catholic but no longer.  I asked the father, "Your son is so well disciplined, and does he know why he is, his purpose for doing so?"  The Father could not answer.

    And this is how public schools are.  sounds communistic.  Communism goes by KAB.  Knowledge, Attitude, Behavior.  What knowledge is given, can lead to attitude, that leads to behavior.

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    Re: Michael and Debbie Pearl
    « Reply #29 on: October 29, 2023, 07:39:32 PM »
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  • .

    So the truth comes out. The godparents are admonishing you that you are not raising their godchild properly and are giving you a blueprint for how to raise them correctly. You don't want to listen to them and are trying to make the issue about the blueprint they are giving you instead of about why the conversation happened in the first place.
    This is a very ignorant thing to say. The issue wasn't whether improvements in parenting could be made. The issue was whether submitting to the instruction of heretics was the surefire way to make them--that's the claim the OP is reckoning with. You're usually more reasonable than this.