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Author Topic: Would this be a valid baptism?  (Read 609 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Would this be a valid baptism?
« on: October 30, 2020, 11:19:49 AM »
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  • Let's say you are unbaptized in danger of death and you just have a sink and an amputee with no arms. Would a baptism where the man puts the water in his mouth and pours it on the forehead while saying the essential form be valid?


    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Would this be a valid baptism?
    « Reply #1 on: October 30, 2020, 11:34:39 AM »
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  • Only one drop of water flowing over the head, touching skin, while saying the words is necessary. If you cannot say the words while administering the water, than it would not be valid. you could use your feet or something else if you get creative.


    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Would this be a valid baptism?
    « Reply #2 on: October 30, 2020, 11:37:22 AM »
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  • Only one drop of water flowing over the head, touching skin, while saying the words is necessary. If you cannot say the words while administering the water, than it would not be valid. you could use your feet or something else if you get creative.
    You actually can say the form with water in your mouth

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Would this be a valid baptism?
    « Reply #3 on: October 30, 2020, 12:12:02 PM »
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  • You actually can say the form with water in your mouth
    Glad that's not something anyone ever has or ever will have to worry about.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Would this be a valid baptism?
    « Reply #4 on: October 30, 2020, 12:36:26 PM »
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  • The things that come up sometimes, in determining questions of sacramental validity... I could not have made this up in a thousand years!

    But, yes, if water could flow at the same time the words are being said, it would be valid.

    Quite aside from having the one true Faith and addressing the most important questions in the world --- those questions involving salvation and giving glory to Almighty God --- such mental exercises keep us sharp and help our reason to function better.  That is something that is good in and of itself.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Would this be a valid baptism?
    « Reply #5 on: October 30, 2020, 04:23:49 PM »
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  • But the more IMPORTANT question right now, since all is well in the world, our country, the Church, our chapels, and our families --

    Let us speculate: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

    Because by no means do we have bigger fish to fry or anything like that. It's not like they're trying to impose a global tyranny on us as we speak. It's not like the Church is in Crisis or something. 
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Would this be a valid baptism?
    « Reply #6 on: December 01, 2020, 09:24:45 PM »
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  • Cryptinox sounds like a crypto-Jєω.

    The Jєω MO typically dreams up absurd questions in order to mock Our Holy Catholic Faith.

    His amputee baptism scenario is similar to the other classic Hebe mockery:

    “ If a poor Jєω was drowning in the ocean, but unable to get the Sacrament, couldn’t he just baptize himself?”

    The true answer is “ No Jєω-boy!”
    The fact is you blew it.
    You did not believe and were not Baptized.  Therefore, an eternity of Hell awaits you.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Would this be a valid baptism?
    « Reply #7 on: December 02, 2020, 04:49:57 AM »
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  • But the more IMPORTANT question right now, since all is well in the world, our country, the Church, our chapels, and our families --

    Let us speculate: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

    Because by no means do we have bigger fish to fry or anything like that. It's not like they're trying to impose a global tyranny on us as we speak. It's not like the Church is in Crisis or something.

    Well, this is a highly Jesuitical mindset ... to test various principles through casuistry.  Nevertheless, if God were to put you in a situation where you required Baptism in danger of death and the only person around was a double amputee (what are the statistical odds?), well, you probably had some other issues to begin with.  God's Providence doesn't ordinarily work like this.  Danger of Death Baptisms are relatively rare to being with, and in cases where they happen, God will arrange things so they can actually happen.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Would this be a valid baptism?
    « Reply #8 on: December 02, 2020, 04:53:07 AM »
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  • To answer the question, pouring water with the hands is not essential to the Sacrament of Baptism.

    In the Tradition of the Church, both immersion and aspersion were used for Baptism.  In one case, for women being baptized by immersion, the bishop who pronounced the words (typically the bishop performed Baptisms) would stand behind a screen for reasons of modesty while various helpers (female helpers loosely called deaconesses) would assist women with the immersion.  So the only essential parts are ...

    1) water moving on the skin (preferably of the head)
    2) words of the form

    How the water gets there seems to be accidental.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Would this be a valid baptism?
    « Reply #9 on: December 02, 2020, 09:38:08 AM »
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  • Well, this is a highly Jesuitical mindset ... to test various principles through casuistry.  Nevertheless, if God were to put you in a situation where you required Baptism in danger of death and the only person around was a double amputee (what are the statistical odds?), well, you probably had some other issues to begin with.  God's Providence doesn't ordinarily work like this.  Danger of Death Baptisms are relatively rare to being with, and in cases where they happen, God will arrange things so they can actually happen.
    .
    I have found Cryptinox's posting history to be relatively immature and at times worth a double-take, but as someone whose mind wanders I empathize with Jesuitical character to this question.  And he is on record being very young, so it is better that he ask questions than not, so hopefully he can learn something. A desire to learn is good.  Unusual questions can be a good way to tease out principles and identify boundaries (when they are asked in good faith, which I think they are in the case of Cryptinox).
    .
    Hi Cryptinox-- don't mean to talk as though you aren't there :)
    .
    As to the providential 'likelihood' of this or that, I am reminded of one of the famous North American Martyrs who was killed by an enemy tribe that raided the Indian camp hosting the Jesuits. He spent his last moments crawling about, baptizing whom he could. That he had limbs left to do this was purely contingent.  It could have been otherwise quite easily.
    .
    There is an SSPX priest with one arm.  Again, he could have had none just as easily.
    .
    I am often surprised at traditional Catholics, of all people, placing limits on what God would or would not allow.  We are frequently criticized by neo-cons and the like for lacking faith because there is no way God would allow a crisis of the magnitude we maintain.  Perhaps traditionalism would have proven a more successful position if theologians had entertained its contingencies more than they did?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline AgnusDei

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    Re: Would this be a valid baptism?
    « Reply #10 on: December 08, 2020, 12:02:08 AM »
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  • I don't think someone can baptize himself.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Would this be a valid baptism?
    « Reply #11 on: December 08, 2020, 05:23:12 AM »
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  • I don't think someone can baptize himself.
    Correct.  This was defined at the Council of Trent.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi