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Offline Matthew

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Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
« on: August 28, 2010, 12:14:12 PM »
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  • WHY THE TRADITIONAL LATIN MASS?
     
    THE TRUE MASS
    In 1969, Pope Paul VI issued a New Order of the Mass, the Novus Ordo
    Missae. Up to that time, what is commonly referred to as the
    "Tridentine" or "Latin" Mass, was used by the Church. On the face of
    things, it may seem to be a simple matter for the Pope to change the
    Mass. It has been done before. Is there a difference, then, between
    the modifications made by Paul VI and the liturgical changes of the
    past? There is a radical difference, and one that has had disastrous
    consequences for the universal Church.
     
    THE NEW MASS CONTRADICTS TRADITION
    The "Tridentine" or Roman Rite Mass, while it has developed
    organically over the 2,000 year history of the Church, is essentially
    the Mass that was given to the Apostles and the Church by Our Lord
    Jesus Christ Himself. Although various rites emerged, they all
    maintained the same spirit imparted to the liturgy by Our Lord and
    were only adapted to various cultures without any deviation in
    doctrine. The Roman Rite, up to Vatican II, underwent only minor
    changes, such that the famous English liturgist Fr. Adrian Fortescue
    was able to state that "no one has ventured to touch it except in
    unimportant details."
     
    Pope St. Pius V, to protect the Roman Rite from innovations and
    eliminate any variations, codified the Traditional Latin Mass in the
    Apostolic Constitution Quo Primum in 1570. The Mass that he was
    confirming was not some new creation like the Novus Ordo Missae, but
    a Mass that matched in every respect the Faith of the Apostles. Nor
    was it the Mass of some particular area of the Church like the
    Eastern rites, but the universal rite of the Church, the rite of the
    Roman See. His bull says in part:
     
    "We specifically command each and every patriarch, administrator, and
    all other persons or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be, be
    they even cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, or possessed of any
    other rank or pre-eminence, and We order them in virtue of holy
    obedience to chant or to read the Mass according to the rite and
    manner and norm herewith laid down by Us and, hereafter, to
    discontinue and completely discard all other rubrics and rites of
    other missals, however ancient, which they have customarily followed;
    and they must not in celebrating Mass presume to introduce any
    ceremonies or recite any prayers other than those contained in this
    Missal.
     
    "Furthermore, by these presents , in virtue of Our
    Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the
    chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal
    is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of
    conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure,
    and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors,
    administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or
    religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the
    Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain
    . . . that this present docuмent cannot be revoked or modified, but
    remain always valid and retain its full force . . . [The complete
    Apostolic Constitution "Quo Primum" of Pope St. Pius V (July 14,
    1570) is available in print from Angelus Press or online].
     
    What, then, was done at Vatican II? Were some changes made merely in
    "unimportant details"? Was the proper honor and respect given to the
    Rite essentially bestowed by Christ on His Church and confirmed by
    incomparable proofs in the form of thousands of saints and countless
    miracles? On June 5, 1969 Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani of the Holy
    Office, and Antonio Cardinal Bacci, along with a group of Roman
    theologians, presented Pope Paul VI with a "Short Critical Study of
    the New Order of Mass." The Study contained a cover letter signed by
    Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci which says, in part:
     
    Most Holy Father, having carefully examined, and presented for the
    scrutiny of others, the Novus Ordo Missae prepared by the experts of
    the Consilium ad exequendam Constitutionem de Sacra Liturgia, and
    after lengthy prayer and reflection, we feel it to be our bounden
    duty in the sight of God and towards Your Holiness, to put before you
    the following considerations:
     
    1. The accompanying critical study of the Novus Ordo Missae, the work
    of a group of theologians, liturgists and pastors of souls, shows
    quite clearly in spite of its brevity that if we consider the
    innovations implied or taken for granted which may of course be
    evaluated in different ways, the Novus Ordo represents, both as a
    whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic
    theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session XXII of the
    Council of Trent. The "canons" of the rite definitively fixed at that
    time provided an insurmountable barrier to any heresy directed against
    the integrity of the Mystery . . . ("The Ottaviani Intervention --
    Short Critical Study of the New Order of Mass" is available from TAN
    Books or online).
     
    Vatican I in 1870 defined the Pope to be, not an absolute monarch,
    but the guarantor of obedience to the revealed word. The legitimacy
    of his power was bound up above all with his transmitting the Faith.
    This fidelity to the deposit of the Faith and to its transmission
    concerns in a quite special way the liturgy. No authority can
    fabricate' a liturgy. The Pope himself is only the humble servant of
    its homogenous development, its integrity, and the permanence of its
    identity." The Pope, as the guardian of the Deposit of Faith, has a
    duty to preserve the liturgy intact and pass it on essentially
    unmodified to the next generation. The very authors of Vatican II, on
    the other hand, openly acknowledged their desire not to pass on
    Tradition, but to make it.
     
    St. Vincent of Lerins in the 5th century gave as a standard for the
    orthodoxy of doctrine that which has been believed everywhere
    (ubique), always (semper), and by all (omnia). But, as Cardinal
    Ratzinger points out, the Council Fathers of Vatican II rejected this
    hallowed definition: "Vatican II's refusal of the proposal to adopt
    the text of Lerins, familiar to, and, as it were, sanctified by two
    Church Councils, shows once more how Trent and Vatican I were left
    behind, how their texts were continually reinterpreted... Vatican II
    had a new idea of how historical identity and continuity were to be
    brought about." This new idea was nothing other than to create a
    pseudo-tradition from the "common consciousness" of the Council
    Fathers. This is pure Modernism and totally contrary to the Deposit
    of Faith.
     
    THE DESTRUCTION OF CATHOLIC WORSHIP
    IS THE DESTRUCTION OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH
     
    The Church has always set forth the firm and clear principle that:
    "The way we worship is the way we believe." The doctrinal truths of
    the Faith are embodied in the worship we offer to God. In other
    words, it is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that teaches us our
    theology and not the reverse. The True Mass comprises the Apostolic
    Tradition of faith and morals in its very essence. Every doctrine
    essential to the Faith is taught therein. Pope Leo XIII points out in
    Apostolicae Curae that the Church's enemies have always understood
    this principle as "They knew only too well the intimate bond that
    unites faith with worship, the law of belief with the law of prayer,
    and so, under the pretext of restoring the order of the liturgy to
    its primitive form, they corrupted it in many respects to adapt it to
    the errors of the Innovators." It is no wonder, then, that Luther
    coined the slogan: "Take away the Mass, destroy the Church."
     
    St. Alphonsus Liguori (Bishop, Doctor of the Church and Patron of
    Theologians) explains that "The devil has always attempted, by means
    of the heretics, to deprive the world of the Mass, making them
    precursors of the Anti-Christ, who, before anything else, will try to
    abolish and will actually abolish the Holy Sacrament of the altar, as
    a punishment for the sins of men, according to the prediction of
    Daniel: 'And strength was given him against the continual sacrifice'
    (Dan. 8:12)."

    The question then becomes: Does the New Mass teach the Catholic
    Faith? No, say both Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci: "It is clear that
    the Novus Ordo no longer intends to present the Faith as taught by
    the Council of Trent." Pope St. Leo the Great (Father and Doctor of
    the Church) instructs us:
     
    "Teach nothing new, but implant in the hearts of everyone those
    things which the fathers of venerable memory taught with a uniform
    preaching. . . Whence, we preach nothing except what we have received
    from our forefathers. In all things, therefore, both in the rule of
    faith in the observance of discipline, let the pattern of antiquity
    be observed." How well founded, then, were the concerns expressed by
    Pope Pius XII shortly before the introduction of the New Mass: "I am
    worried by the Blessed Virgin's messages to Lucy at Fatima. This
    persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a
    divine warning against the ѕυιcιdє that would be represented by the
    alteration of the Faith in Her liturgy."
     
    When you place the prayers and ceremonies of the traditional Latin
    Mass side by side with those of the New Mass, you can easily see to
    what degree the Church's traditional doctrine has been "edited out."
    And the "editing" always seems to have been done on those parts of
    the Mass expressing some Catholic doctrine which Protestants find
    "offensive." Here are some examples:
     
    Common Penitential Rite: The traditional Mass begins with the priest
    reciting personal prayers of reparation to God called "The Prayers at
    the Foot of the Altar." The New Mass begins instead with a
    "Penitential Rite" which the priest and people recite together. Who
    were the first to introduce a common penitential rite? The 16th
    century Protestants, who wanted to promote their teaching that the
    priest is no different from the layman.
     
    The Offertory: The Offertory prayers of the traditional Mass clearly
    express a number of Catholic teachings, as that the Mass is offered
    to God to satisfy for sin and that the saints are to be honored. The
    Protestants rejected these teachings and so abolished the Offertory
    prayers. "That abomination called the Offertory," said Luther, "and
    from this point almost everything stinks of oblation!" In the New
    Mass as well, the Offertory is gone -- it has been replaced with a
    ceremony called "The Preparation of the Gifts." The prayers
    "offensive" to Protestants have also been removed. In their place is
    the prayer "Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation," based on a
    Jєωιѕн grace before meals.
     
    The "Eucharistic Prayer": The traditional Mass has only one
    "Eucharistic Prayer," the ancient Roman Canon. The Canon was always a
    favorite target of Lutheran and other Protestant attacks. Instead of
    just one Canon, the New Mass now has a number of "Eucharistic
    Prayers," only one of which we will mention here. Eucharistic Prayer
    No. 1 is an "edited" version of the Roman Canon. The lists of
    Catholic saints, so despised by Protestants, are now optional, and
    hence rarely used. The translators did some further "editing." Among
    other things, the idea that Christ the Victim is offered at Mass (a
    notion Luther condemned) has disappeared. All the Eucharistic Prayers
    now incorporate some typical Protestant practice. They are recited in
    a loud voice instead of silently, and they have an "Institution
    Narrative," instead of a Consecration. (According to Protestant
    beliefs, their ministers do not consecrate the Eucharist like
    Catholic priests do; they just narrate the story of the Last Supper.)
    Even Christs own words in the Consecration were altered: ". . . Which
    shall be shed for you and for many, unto the remission of sins" was
    changed to ". . . It will be shed for you and for all men so that
    sins may be forgiven." (Rome acknowledged this "mistranslation"
    recently.) The various signs of respect toward Our Lord present in
    the Blessed Sacrament (genuflections, signs of the cross, bells,
    incense, etc.) have been reduced, made optional, or eliminated.
     
    Communion in the Hand: The 16th century Protestant Martin Bucer
    condemned the Church's practice of placing the Host on the tongue of
    the communicant as something introduced out of "a double
    superstition: first, the false honor they wish to show to this
    sacrament, and secondly, the wicked arrogance of priests claiming
    greater holiness than that of the people of Christ, by virtue of the
    oil of consecration." The practice in Protestant churches of
    "communion in the hand" is thus based upon their rejection of
    Christ's Real Presence and the priesthood. At the New Mass, just as
    at a Protestant service, there is Communion in the hand. But the men
    who created the New Mass went even further, for a layman may not only
    receive Communion in the hand -- he is also permitted to distribute
    it, even on a moment's notice. Let us recall St. Thomas Aquinas'
    (1225-1274)* words on this subject: "The body of Christ must not be
    touched by anyone, other than a consecrated priest. No other person
    has the right to touch it, except in case of extreme necessity" (III,
    82 a.3). (*St. Thomas Aquinas was given the title "Angelic Doctor".
    His canonization decree states, "His doctrine was none other than
    miraculous. He has enlightened the Church more than all other
    Doctors")
     
    Veneration of the Saints: The prayers of the traditional Mass
    frequently invoke the saints by name and beg their intercession. The
    Church's veneration of the saints in her worship was another practice
    which Protestants dismissed as "superstition." The New Order of the
    Mass dropped most invocations of the saints by name, or made them
    optional. In the new Missal, moreover, the weekday prayers for
    saints' feast days (most of which are also optional) have been
    rewritten for the benefit of Protestants -- allusions to miracles,
    the defense of the Catholic Faith, or to the Catholic Church as the
    one, true Church have disappeared.
     
    False Translations: Lastly, there is the matter of the false official
    English translations of the New Mass. A whole book could be written on
    the errors and distortions they contain. Here we will mention briefly
    only the official translations of the prayers for the 34 "Sundays in
    Ordinary Time." The following are some of the ideas which the English
    translation suppresses: God's wrath, our unworthiness, error, sins
    which "burden our consciences," God's majesty, obedience to His
    commandments, supplication, humility, eternity, heaven -- many more
    could be listed. Perhaps the most serious omission is the word
    "grace." It appears 11 times in the Latin original. It does not
    appear even once in the official English "translation"!
     
    Clearly, then, the "new liturgy reflects a new ecclesiology, whereas
    the old reflects another ecclesiology" (Cardinal Benelli) and one
    quite foreign to the Catholic Church. This ultimately means as Fr.
    Gelineau, S.J., one of the "experts" who co-authored the New Mass,
    pointed out, that "The New Mass is a different liturgy. This needs to
    be said without ambiguity. The Roman Rite, as we knew it, no longer
    exists. It has been destroyed." The Catechism of the Council of Trent
    tells us that "a Catholic sins against the Faith by participating in
    non-Catholic worship." The New Mass is not Catholic worship, even if
    it has retained the name "Catholic," as did the Anglican liturgy
    until recently.
     
    FRUITS OF VATICAN II AND THE NEW MASS
     
    "By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns,
    or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good
    fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree
    cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth
    good fruit" (Matt. 7:15-17). Given the foregoing, it should be plain
    that the New Mass was conceived for an evil purpose and constructed
    by evil means. It only follows that such a tree would have disastrous
    effects on the Church. Let us look at its fruits as reported in Index
    of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since Vatican II by
    Kenneth Jones.
     
    Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than
    doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has
    fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left,
    and more than half of these priests will be over 70.
     
    Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United
    States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S.
    parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless
    parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.
     
    Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped
    from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the
    600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.
     
    Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had
    fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In
    1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a
    decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.
     
    Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in
    sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit
    priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers,
    the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by
    two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In
    1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000,
    there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become
    Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in
    2000.
     
    Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the
    United States have closed since 1965. The student population has
    fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even
    greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of
    pupils attending has fallen below 2 million -- from 4.5 million.
     
    Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by
    one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has
    soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.
     
    Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four
    Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the
    University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.
    Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching
    on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an
    abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that
    Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one
    can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New
    York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to
    44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.
     
    Who could possibly claim that there is not a terrible crisis of faith
    in the Catholic Church!? It is no wonder that Cardinal Ratzinger
    affirmed: "I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find
    ourselves today depends in great part on the collapse of the
    liturgy." It is clear how the New Mass could create such a disaster.
    Liturgy dictates belief. A protestantized liturgy yields heretical
    belief, loss of the Faith, and devaluation of the priesthood. Satan
    has been able to accomplish more effective damage to the entire body
    of the Church in the past 35 years through the destruction of the
    Mass than ever before.
     
    CONCLUSION
     
    The New Mass is condemned by its own nature and by its fruits. The
    crisis in the Church will continue to worsen until we return to
    orthodoxy and discipline. What is a Catholic to do in such
    troublesome times? He must follow the advice of St. Vincent of
    Lerins: "What then shall the Catholic do if some portion of the
    Church detaches itself from communion of the universal Faith? If some
    new contagion attempts to poison, no longer a small part of the
    Church, but the whole Church at once, then his great concern will be
    to attach himself to antiquity (Tradition) which can no longer be led
    astray by any lying novelty."
     
    St. Athanasius, one of the four great Doctors of the Eastern Church,
    earned the title of "Father of Orthodoxy" for his strong and
    uncompromising defense of our Catholic Faith against the Arian Heresy
    which affected most of the hierarchy, including the pope. Athanasius
    was banned from his diocese at least five times, spending a total of
    seventeen years in exile. He sent the following letter to his flock
    which is a powerful lesson for our times: "What saddens you is the
    fact that others have occupied the churches by violence, while during
    this time you are on the outside. It is a fact that they have the
    premises -- but you have the Apostolic Faith. They can occupy our
    churches, but they are outside the true Faith. You remain outside the
    places of worship, but the Faith dwells within you. Let us consider:
    what is more important? The place or the Faith? The true Faith,
    obviously. Who has lost and who has won in this struggle? The one who
    keeps the premises or the one who keeps the Faith?"
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    Offline JoanScholastica

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #1 on: September 03, 2010, 03:33:59 AM »
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  • Quote
    THE DESTRUCTION OF CATHOLIC WORSHIP
    IS THE DESTRUCTION OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH


    So true! :incense:


    Offline AlbinoLuciani

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #2 on: September 04, 2010, 06:08:59 PM »
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  • Msgr. Eugene Pacelli, the future Pope Pius XII, made the astonishing prophecy on the future upheaval in the Church:

    "I am worried by the Blessed Virgin's messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the ѕυιcιdє of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul. … I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject Her ornaments and make Her feel remorse for Her historical past."

     http://www.cfnews.org/kramer.htm

    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #3 on: September 09, 2010, 09:05:04 PM »
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  • I had read that essay somewhere before, Matthew. It's a good one. Remarkably clear-headed and well-organized.

    Albino, thank you for that quote from Pius XII, before he was Pius XII. I had never heard it before. The attacks against Tradition have long roots, don't they?
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #4 on: September 09, 2010, 10:39:06 PM »
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  • As A Catholic that remembers when the Latin Mass was
    celebrated in every Catholic Church throughout the world,
    and a time when the thought of any changes were
    unthinkable. I cannot see any positive developments in
    any of the novus ordo changes that were introduced
    into Catholic Worship on that First Sunday of Advent in
    1964, and 1969. All I have seen is doubts about the
    Catholic Faith that were unthinkable as late as 1964.
    I have seen a great falling away. A very few believe
    in the complete Catholic Faith. A very few believe
    in Heaven, and hell. The belief in purgatory does
    not exist anymore. Going to mass today is just like
    going to a sports event, because of fashions that are
    common today.  At lease, the Baptists down the road,
    they are always in their Sunday's best.


    Offline Alexandria

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #5 on: September 10, 2010, 11:44:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
    As A Catholic that remembers when the Latin Mass was
    celebrated in every Catholic Church throughout the world,
    and a time when the thought of any changes were
    unthinkable. I cannot see any positive developments in
    any of the novus ordo changes that were introduced
    into Catholic Worship on that First Sunday of Advent in
    1964, and 1969. All I have seen is doubts about the
    Catholic Faith that were unthinkable as late as 1964.
    I have seen a great falling away. A very few believe
    in the complete Catholic Faith. A very few believe
    in Heaven, and hell. The belief in purgatory does
    not exist anymore. Going to mass today is just like
    going to a sports event, because of fashions that are
    common today.  At lease, the Baptists down the road,
    they are always in their Sunday's best.


    You've got it down pat.  They believe in Heaven and everyone goes there regardless (except, of course, those nasty traditionals).  Hell does exist, but no one is there (except for Adolph Hitler).  They believe in Purgatory, but no one goes there either because everyone is a "good person" and everyone has a "good heart."  

    Although I would say that going to the novus ordo mass today is like going to the movie theater sans the smell of popcorn.   :smirk:

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #6 on: September 11, 2010, 12:35:12 PM »
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  • Obviously, I agree with the article.

    Want to get opinions as to the typical Neo-Cath responses I've run into.

    1.) The Pope has power over the liturgy. Every practice that was changed (girl altar boys, CITH) was small "t" tradition, and thus changeable. Big deal.

    2.) The statistics after VCII were due to the secular world changing and not due to VCII and Catholic marriages were showing a decline before VCII.

    I have my own thoughts, but wanted to get the CI take before I chime in. Thanks!

    Offline Alexandria

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #7 on: September 11, 2010, 01:02:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Obviously, I agree with the article.

    Want to get opinions as to the typical Neo-Cath responses I've run into.

    1.) The Pope has power over the liturgy. Every practice that was changed (girl altar boys, CITH) was small "t" tradition, and thus changeable. Big deal.

    2.) The statistics after VCII were due to the secular world changing and not due to VCII and Catholic marriages were showing a decline before VCII.

    I have my own thoughts, but wanted to get the CI take before I chime in. Thanks!


    Since I lived through that period of time and 99% of the neo-cats on CAF didn't  (although they will swear to you that what you experienced is dead wrong), I will tell you what I remember re: #2.

    Everything was fine until 1965.  I remember the school year 1965/1966 as a very bleak, depressing and dark year ("Eve of Destruction" was a top 40 song, so you can judge for yourself the prevailing atmosphere).  Toward the very end of the Second Vatican Council all hell began to break loose.   It was one thing after another.  I often wonder how we made it through the sixties.







    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #8 on: September 11, 2010, 02:00:35 PM »
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  • Interesting Alexandria.

    I love when the older Neo-Caths lecture the younger Trads giving them the impression that the bad old days were filled with one sloppy, irreverent, TLM after another and that nobody knew what was going on.

    It is up to you, older Trads, to correct this kind of revisionism.

    Offline Alexandria

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #9 on: September 11, 2010, 02:06:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Interesting Alexandria.

    I love when the older Neo-Caths lecture the younger Trads giving them the impression that the bad old days were filled with one sloppy, irreverent, TLM after another and that nobody knew what was going on.

    It is up to you, older Trads, to correct this kind of revisionism.


    I've tried to, but they are not interested since they claim to know better.

    They have been fed so many lies over and over and over again, that they now believe them to be fact.

    I leave them to themselves.  They deserve each other.  

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #10 on: September 11, 2010, 02:12:35 PM »
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  • One NO priest who experienced the Pre-VCII days and apparently traveled all over, swears that sloppily done and completely careless and uninspiring TLM's were the standard of the day.

    Since his audience is mainly Catholics who never lived during that area he can get away with this.

    What we need are more Trads who did live in that area who can call him on this. I know an NO woman who lived through it and can testify to just the opposite!

    There seems to be a direct correlation to how liberal one is now and how "bad" the Masses were then. ;)


    Offline Alexandria

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #11 on: September 11, 2010, 02:18:36 PM »
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  • "There seems to be a direct correlation to how liberal one is now and how "bad" the Masses were then. ;)"

    I had that in my post and took it out.  You are right; I have noticed that the older Catholics who decry the horrible pre-VII Church are the liberals of today.  

    As I said, I have tried to correct it over the years and, since not many rallied to my side, I took on the appearance of the "lone looney."

    The Truth will come out in the end.

    Offline Emerentiana

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #12 on: September 11, 2010, 04:34:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: AlbinoLuciani
    Msgr. Eugene Pacelli, the future Pope Pius XII, made the astonishing prophecy on the future upheaval in the Church:

    "I am worried by the Blessed Virgin's messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the ѕυιcιdє of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul. … I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject Her ornaments and make Her feel remorse for Her historical past."

     http://www.cfnews.org/kramer.htm


    I have a question for you Albino.  Isnt your avatar a picture of John Paul 1?

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Why the Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 07:38:55 AM »
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  • From "The Theological Underpinnings of Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of the Christ.' Why Did Jesus Have to Undergo Such an Excruciating Death? by Robert Sungenis

    http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/christiology/gibson-atonement1.htm


    Quote
    The Latin Mass and the Atonement:

    There is no better portrayal of the principle of appeasement than in the Traditional Catholic Mass, and it is the very reason why it will never cease, despite the attempts of the post-conciliar church to have it die a natural death. Listen to these rich words - words which drip with honor and sacrifice to a Holy God.

    The prayers before Mass include such statements as "To adore Thee and give Thee honor which is due to Thee...to appease Thy justice, aroused against us by so many sins, and to make satisfaction for them."(17)

    The Confiteor says: "We beseech Thee, O Lord, by the merits of Thy saints, whose relics are here, and of all the Saints, that Thou wilt deign to pardon me all my sins."(18)

    The Offertory states: "Accept, O Holy Father, Almighty and Everlasting God, this unspotted Host, which I, Thine unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, to atone for my countless sins, offenses, and negligences..." and "We offer unto Thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, entreating Thy mercy that our offering may ascend with a sweet fragrance in thy sight..." and "may our sacrifice be so offered this day in Thy sight as to be pleasing to Thee, O Lord God" and "this sacrifice which is prepared for the glory of Thy holy Name," and "Receive, O Holy Trinity, this oblation which we make to Thee in memory of the Passion...the them let it bring honor, and to us salvation."(19)

    In the Orate Fratres we plead: "Pray, brethren, that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God the Father Almighty."(20) Notice here that we cannot demand that God be appeased, but we humbly hope that it "may be acceptable." That is because God's mercy is completely personal and voluntary, not a legal remuneration He gives as if He were legally required to do so.

    In the Secret we pray: "Sanctify, we beseech Thee, O Lord our God, by the invocation of Thy Holy Name, the Sacrifice we offer..." In the Canon we pray: "We, therefore, humbly pray and beseech Thee, most merciful Father...to accept and to bless these gifts, these presents, these holy unspotted Sacrifices, which we offer up to Thee..."(21)

    In the prayers at Consecration the priest says: "We beseech Thee, O Lord, graciously to accept this oblation of our service...that we be rescued from eternal damnation..." and "Humbly we pray Thee, O God, be pleased to make this same offering wholly blessed, to consecrate it and approve it..."(22)

    The prayers after Consecration say: "And now, O Lord, we...do offer unto Thy most sovereign Majesty out of the gifts Thou hast bestowed upon us, a Victim which is pure, a Victim which is holy, a Victim which is spotless...Deign to look upon them with a favorable and gracious countenance...we humbly beseech Thee, almighty God, to command that these our offerings be carried by the hands of Thy holy Angels to Thine Altar on high, in the sight of Thy divine Majesty..."(23)

    Suffice it to say, the Latin Mass is saturated, from beginning to end, with the theme of sacrifice, propitiation and appeasement which is offered to God the Father so that His wrath against our sins will be abated and that His tender mercies will flow to us. I dare say that, without the daily offering of the Catholic Mass throughout the world, God would have no choice but to destroy it immediately for its sins. It is only through the propitiatory offering of the Mass that God is appeased enough to allow the world to go on existing one more day. This also means, of course, that if the Mass is ever taken away, time on earth will be over. Unfortunately, the Antichrist may have something to say about that in the future (cf., Dan 8:11-13; 11:31; 12:11).


    That pretty much makes it crystal clear why the Latin Mass.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.