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Author Topic: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?  (Read 1886 times)

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Offline Student of Qi

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Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2018, 11:17:34 AM »
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  • Yes Ladi is correct. I am not disputing about ritual. I was referring to Student's claim about (Catholic) Melkites not being bound by dogma, as in purgatory and Immaculate Conception. He seems to be confusing Eastern Catholic with Orthodox schismatics.
    No, I'm not. My Melkite friend told me this is the way things are in the declaration/agreement of their communion with Rome. Maybe I can ask him to provide a link or reference of the document. 
      In it, The Roman Pontiff allows them to remain pretty much autocephalous (self governing) and doesn't impose the Roman Catholic theology or Dogma on them. They also keep their traditional liturgy, etc. Part of the reasoning is that they are what we once were. If orthodox theology is wrong now the Roman church was wrong in the past too. Hence one of their Patriarchs said "We have everything in common with Orthodoxy, and almost nothing with the Romans".
    One of the Melkite Metropolitan Bishops has even said that the SSPX and "Resistance" are "instinctively" drawn towards orthodoxy, and already are in in practice to good extent but are essentialy "Orthodox in denial of their real identity". 
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

    Online poche

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #16 on: February 09, 2018, 10:46:04 PM »
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  • No, I'm not. My Melkite friend told me this is the way things are in the declaration/agreement of their communion with Rome. Maybe I can ask him to provide a link or reference of the document.
      In it, The Roman Pontiff allows them to remain pretty much autocephalous (self governing) and doesn't impose the Roman Catholic theology or Dogma on them. They also keep their traditional liturgy, etc. Part of the reasoning is that they are what we once were. If orthodox theology is wrong now the Roman church was wrong in the past too. Hence one of their Patriarchs said "We have everything in common with Orthodoxy, and almost nothing with the Romans".
    One of the Melkite Metropolitan Bishops has even said that the SSPX and "Resistance" are "instinctively" drawn towards orthodoxy, and already are in in practice to good extent but are essentialy "Orthodox in denial of their real identity".
    This is what it could be like if the SSPX would accept an arrangement with the Vatican.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #17 on: February 10, 2018, 03:04:18 PM »
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  • No, I'm not. My Melkite friend told me this is the way things are in the declaration/agreement of their communion with Rome. Maybe I can ask him to provide a link or reference of the document.
      In it, The Roman Pontiff allows them to remain pretty much autocephalous (self governing) and doesn't impose the Roman Catholic theology or Dogma on them. They also keep their traditional liturgy, etc. Part of the reasoning is that they are what we once were. If orthodox theology is wrong now the Roman church was wrong in the past too. Hence one of their Patriarchs said "We have everything in common with Orthodoxy, and almost nothing with the Romans".
    One of the Melkite Metropolitan Bishops has even said that the SSPX and "Resistance" are "instinctively" drawn towards orthodoxy, and already are in in practice to good extent but are essentialy "Orthodox in denial of their real identity".

    Yes, I've run into pockets of Eastern Rite Catholics that have a very schismatic orthodox mentality still and almost a contempt for Rome.  Yes, Rome could allow them to remain largely independent ... as they do for many of the Eastern Rites, with regard to Liturgy, Canon Law, discipline, governance.  But no agreement can exempt any Catholic from being required to accept defined dogma with the certainty of faith.

    I am not interested in what this "friend" told you.  Provide a document which indicates that Rome has exempted them from accepting DOGMATIC definitions (I'm not talking about Canon Law, liturgy, discipline, etc.).  I don't believe such an exemption exists.  Furthermore, if some Pope did have the audacity to make such an exemption, it's invalid by divine law.  Period.  If any Eastern Catholic, for instance, were to reject the dogma of papal infallibility, he would be a formal heretic and outside the Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #18 on: February 10, 2018, 03:05:48 PM »
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  • If orthodox theology is wrong now the Roman church was wrong in the past too. Hence one of their Patriarchs said "We have everything in common with Orthodoxy, and almost nothing with the Romans".

    First sentence is heretical; second is schismatic.  If I had been Pope when this Patriarch said this, I would have excommunicated his ass so fast his head would spin.


    Offline Arsenius

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #19 on: February 13, 2018, 11:16:22 AM »
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  • Yes, I've run into pockets of Eastern Rite Catholics that have a very schismatic orthodox mentality still and almost a contempt for Rome.  Yes, Rome could allow them to remain largely independent ... as they do for many of the Eastern Rites, with regard to Liturgy, Canon Law, discipline, governance.  But no agreement can exempt any Catholic from being required to accept defined dogma with the certainty of faith.

    I am not interested in what this "friend" told you.  Provide a document which indicates that Rome has exempted them from accepting DOGMATIC definitions (I'm not talking about Canon Law, liturgy, discipline, etc.).  I don't believe such an exemption exists.  Furthermore, if some Pope did have the audacity to make such an exemption, it's invalid by divine law.  Period.  If any Eastern Catholic, for instance, were to reject the dogma of papal infallibility, he would be a formal heretic and outside the Church.
    You do realize that Eastern Catholic churches do not celebrate the Feast of the Immaculate Conception right? What is celebrated is the Maternity of Holy Anna, and there is no mention of the Immaculate Conception within the liturgical texts. It's not Eastern teaching. Some of the more latinized churches will celebrate a vesperal divine liturgy on the evening of the December 8, but liturgically speaking that is the same as celebrating it on December 9th (since liturgical days begin with vespers in the evening, at least in the Eastern churches).
    The law of prayer is the law of belief. Eastern Catholics use the same liturgical books as the Orthodox. They are for all purposes, Orthodox in communion with Rome, the only liturgical difference being that they commemorate the pope of Rome in the liturgy. It should also be noted that Eastern Catholics also recognize Orthodox saints and regularly venerate them in iconography and the liturgy.
     
    “We seek and we pray for our return to that time when, being united, we spoke the same things and there was no schism between us.” ~ St. Mark of Ephesus

    "It is only when something very good is broken that you will pay almost any price to restore it" ~ Fr. Alexander Schmemann


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #20 on: February 13, 2018, 11:47:28 AM »
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  • You do realize that Eastern Catholic churches do not celebrate the Feast of the Immaculate Conception right? What is celebrated is the Maternity of Holy Anna, and there is no mention of the Immaculate Conception within the liturgical texts. It's not Eastern teaching.

    Garbage.  Just because it's not reflected/celebrated in the liturgy does not mean that they do not believe it and are not required to believe it.

    I've been to Eastern Catholic Churches on the Conception of St. Ann ... and they have regularly PREACHED about the Immaculate Conception.

    CATHOLICS CANNOT BE EXEMPTED FROM BELIEVING IN DOGMA.  OTHERWISE THEY DO NOT HAVE THE PROPER FORMAL RULE OF FAITH AND DO NOT HAVE FAITH ... AND ARE NOT CATHOLICS.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #21 on: February 13, 2018, 11:48:33 AM »
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  • It should also be noted that Eastern Catholics also recognize Orthodox saints and regularly venerate them in iconography and the liturgy.

    False.  There are no Orthodox saints.  If by Orthodox saints, you mean that they venerate some of the same saints that the Orthodox do, then that would be correct.  So you used the term "Orthodox saints" equivocally.

    Offline Arsenius

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #22 on: February 13, 2018, 12:05:45 PM »
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  • I don't doubt your personal experience as the issue of the Immaculate Conception is complex within Orthodox circles. The Orthodox definitely believe that Mary is immaculate, but they don't have the same understanding of ancestral sin as the West, hence the dogma makes little sense within Eastern thinking. Hence it would be totally plausible to come across Eastern Catholic churches preaching on the Immaculate Conception, just as it would be plausible to find Eastern Catholic churches where it is not preached but rather it is stressed that Eastern Catholics do not share the same understanding of this dogma.

    Regarding your last post, I'm not sure what you mean. Eastern Catholics liturgically commemorate many saints not recognized by the Latins (St. Gregory Palamas, St. Photius the Great, St. Mark of Ephesus) and venerate even more saints in their private devotion such as a host of early modern/modern Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox saints. All though this stops short of public commemoration in the liturgy, it is very common to see icons of exclusively Orthodox saints in Eastern Catholic churches.
    “We seek and we pray for our return to that time when, being united, we spoke the same things and there was no schism between us.” ~ St. Mark of Ephesus

    "It is only when something very good is broken that you will pay almost any price to restore it" ~ Fr. Alexander Schmemann


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #23 on: February 13, 2018, 01:06:36 PM »
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  • I have a friend who left the Roman Rite and is now Melkite Orthodox Catholic. They are only required to acknowledge the Roman Pope as theu did before the Great Schism, they also are allowed by their agreement with Rome to keep everything as is with Orthodoxy. This means that they have the Epiklesia, they are not bound by any of the dogmatic declarations since 1054; Papal Infallability, Imaculate Conception, etc. They also do not share our views on Original sin.

    To answer your question in short: They are Autocephalous and maintain the fullness of Orthodoxy, but are in commuunion with Rome according to the ancient understanding of "First amongst equals". The Eastern Rites are still entirely Orthodox in their Traditions.

    I don't know why the Romans don't have an Epiklesia, but the Orthodox consider this a grave theological error in our Liturgy. Some will even argue about validity due to it's absence. However, the fact that hosts turn into Blood and Flesh in the Roman Church shows that the Epiklesia is not mainly the vehicle for Transsubstantiation. The same applies to the Orthodox, so while we both see things differently we both have the Most Precious Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
    .
    I asked a Roman Catholic priest about where to find an epiclesis in the Latin rite, and he told me that the priest calls down the Holy Ghost before the Consecration as a part of the Offertory with these words:
    .
    Veni, sanctifiactor omnipotens, aeterne Deus: et benedic hoc sacrificium tuo sacto nomini praeparatum.
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    So on that basis, the claim that "the Epiclesis is absent in the Roman rite" is nullified, because, there it is.
    .
    Curiously, the dogmatic definition of the necessity for the salvation of all men that they be subject to the Roman Pontiff was defined in the year 1302* which was 248 years after 1054. This might raise the question, Why should the Eastern Church be required to acknowledge their subjection to the Roman Pope as if in 1054, when that would not be defined until 248 years in the future?
    .
    *[color=rgba(133, 131, 131, 0.87)]“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” ([/color]Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.[color=rgba(133, 131, 131, 0.87)])[/color]
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #24 on: February 13, 2018, 01:11:36 PM »
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  • I don't doubt your personal experience as the issue of the Immaculate Conception is complex within Orthodox circles. The Orthodox definitely believe that Mary is immaculate, but they don't have the same understanding of ancestral sin as the West, hence the dogma makes little sense within Eastern thinking. Hence it would be totally plausible to come across Eastern Catholic churches preaching on the Immaculate Conception, just as it would be plausible to find Eastern Catholic churches where it is not preached but rather it is stressed that Eastern Catholics do not share the same understanding of this dogma.

    Regarding your last post, I'm not sure what you mean. Eastern Catholics liturgically commemorate many saints not recognized by the Latins (St. Gregory Palamas, St. Photius the Great, St. Mark of Ephesus) and venerate even more saints in their private devotion such as a host of early modern/modern Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox saints. All though this stops short of public commemoration in the liturgy, it is very common to see icons of exclusively Orthodox saints in Eastern Catholic churches.
    .
    An Eastern Orthodox priest told me that they don't have any way of canonizing Orthodox saints, without a pope and his supreme authority, and that's why they don't have any Orthodox saints.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #25 on: February 13, 2018, 01:32:52 PM »
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  • Regarding your last post, I'm not sure what you mean. Eastern Catholics liturgically commemorate many saints not recognized by the Latins (St. Gregory Palamas, St. Photius the Great, St. Mark of Ephesus) and venerate even more saints in their private devotion such as a host of early modern/modern Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox saints. All though this stops short of public commemoration in the liturgy, it is very common to see icons of exclusively Orthodox saints in Eastern Catholic churches.

    Sure, especially earlier in the Church, the recognition of saints was more a grass roots process.  And certain particular Churches still venerate some as saints that are not necessarily recognized universally.  As for private devotion to modern Orthodox "saints", I don't necessarily doubt it because there's a lot of bleed-over from the Orthodox into the Eastern Catholic Churches, but that cannot be sanctioned by the Universal Church.


    Offline Arsenius

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #26 on: February 13, 2018, 02:01:06 PM »
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  • .
    An Eastern Orthodox priest told me that they don't have any way of canonizing Orthodox saints, without a pope and his supreme authority, and that's why they don't have any Orthodox saints.
    .
    That's ridiculous. Orthodox saints are canonized the way it was done more or less for most of history, first on a local level then on a wider level. Saints have been declared without undergoing a formal canonization process and without papal involvement even in the West. There are plenty of Orthodox saints, even from the 20th century.
    “We seek and we pray for our return to that time when, being united, we spoke the same things and there was no schism between us.” ~ St. Mark of Ephesus

    "It is only when something very good is broken that you will pay almost any price to restore it" ~ Fr. Alexander Schmemann

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #27 on: February 13, 2018, 02:32:50 PM »
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  • That's ridiculous. Orthodox saints are canonized the way it was done more or less for most of history, first on a local level then on a wider level. Saints have been declared without undergoing a formal canonization process and without papal involvement even in the West. There are plenty of Orthodox saints, even from the 20th century.

    There's no such thing as an Orthodox saint ... since heretics and schismatics cannot be saints and cannot be saved.

    Online poche

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #28 on: February 13, 2018, 11:31:52 PM »
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  • Pope Francis concelebrated Mass on Tuesday morning with the Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch of Antioch, Youssef Absi.
    Instead of delivering a homily, Pope Francis said a few words about the meaning of the day’s celebration, at which members of the Melkite Greek Synod participated.
    “This Mass with our brother, Patriarch Youssef,” the Pope said, “confirms our Apostolic Communion: He is the father of a very ancient Church, and he comes to embrace Peter and to say ‘I am in communion with Peter.’” The Holy Father said this was the meaning of the Eucharistic celebration.
    ‘Suffering Church’

     He said the Melkite Greek Church is “a rich Church with its own theology within Catholic theology and with its own marvelous liturgy”.
    The Pope said “at this moment a large part of the [Melkite] people is crucified, like Jesus.”

    He said the Mass was being celebrated for the people of the Melkite Greek Church, “for the people who suffer, and for persecuted Christians in the Middle East, who give up their lives, goods, and property because they are driven out.” Pope Francis said he also offered the Mass for the ministry of “our brother Youssef”.
    Patriarch: ‘Mass of communion’

     Following the Mass, Patriarch Youssef thanked the Pope for “this beautiful Mass of communion”. He said, “Personally, I am truly moved by your fraternal charity and the solidarity you have shown to our Church.”
    Patriarch Youssef promised to keep Pope Francis in his heart and prayers. “I cannot describe the beauty,” the Patriarch said, of “this communion, which unites all the disciples of Christ.”

    http://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope-francis/mass-casa-santa-marta/2018-02/pope-francis-says-mass-with-melkite-greek-patriarch-.html

    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #29 on: February 13, 2018, 11:50:53 PM »
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  • http://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope-francis/mass-casa-santa-marta/2018-02/pope-francis-says-mass-with-melkite-greek-patriarch-.html

    I'm sort of surprised Papa nostro concelebrated the Mass and not the Divine Liturgy. He loves the Eastern Liturgies more then the Latin Rite(s), modern or otherwise.
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

     

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