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Author Topic: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?  (Read 2901 times)

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Offline Mercyandjustice

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Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
« on: February 06, 2018, 05:26:48 PM »
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    • In the Eastern church, after the words of institution ("This is my body...This is my blood") there is the 'epiklesis.' The epiklesis is a prayer to God the Father that he may send the Holy spirit to transform the bread and wine into Our Lord's body and blood. Here is the text in the Divine liturgy of St. John chrysostom:

    Again we offer unto Thee this reasonable and bloodless worship, and we ask Thee, and pray Thee, and supplicate Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered.
    And make this bread the precious Body of Thy Christ. (Amen)
    And that which is in this cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ. (Amen)
    Making the change by the Holy Spirit. (Amen, Amen, Amen )
    That these gifts may be to those who partake for the purification of soul, for remission of sins, for the communion of the Holy Spirit, for the fulfillment of the Kingdom of Heaven; for boldness towards Thee, and not for judgment or condemnation.
    Now, in the Western church, transubstantation occurs at the words of institution. But in the East, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood at the epiklesis and not the words of institution. So who is right? And also, do eastern Catholic churches retain the epiklesis? 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #1 on: February 06, 2018, 05:28:57 PM »
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    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #2 on: February 06, 2018, 05:33:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on February 06, 2018, 05:26:48 PM
    In the Eastern church, after the words of institution ("This is my body...This is my blood") there is the 'epiklesis.' The epiklesis is a prayer to God the Father that he may send the Holy spirit to transform the bread and wine into Our Lord's body and blood. Here is the text in the Divine liturgy of St. John chrysostom:

    Again we offer unto Thee this reasonable and bloodless worship, and we ask Thee, and pray Thee, and supplicate Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered.
    And make this bread the precious Body of Thy Christ. (Amen)
    And that which is in this cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ. (Amen)
    Making the change by the Holy Spirit. (Amen, Amen, Amen )
    That these gifts may be to those who partake for the purification of soul, for remission of sins, for the communion of the Holy Spirit, for the fulfillment of the Kingdom of Heaven; for boldness towards Thee, and not for judgment or condemnation.
    Now, in the Western church, transubstantation occurs at the words of institution. But in the East, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood at the epiklesis and not the words of institution. So who is right? And also, do eastern Catholic churches retain the epiklesis?
    Eastern is roman...  any sect that is under the pope is Roman.
    Different sects, slightly different mass.
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    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #3 on: February 06, 2018, 07:02:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Fanny on February 06, 2018, 05:33:26 PM
    Eastern is roman...  any sect that is under the pope is Roman.
    Different sects, slightly different mass.
    Yes, I know that. But is the idea that transubstantation occurs at the Words of Institution a dogma that binds the entire Catholic Church (east and west); or is it merely a tradition of the West and therefore not binding in any way to Eastern Catholics? (like Purgatory or the Sacred Heart)
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    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #4 on: February 06, 2018, 07:40:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on February 06, 2018, 07:02:13 PM
    Yes, I know that. But is the idea that transubstantation occurs at the Words of Institution a dogma that binds the entire Catholic Church (east and west); or is it merely a tradition of the West and therefore not binding in any way to Eastern Catholics? (like Purgatory or the Sacred Heart)
    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]We [/color]know[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] what Christ did at the Last Supper, and that He told us to do the same thing. There is no hint of an Epiklesis at the [/color]Last Supper[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)].[/color]
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    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #5 on: February 06, 2018, 07:52:57 PM »
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    • Sorry, don't know what happened...


    We know what Christ did at the Last Supper, and that He told us to do the same thing. There is no hint of an Epiklesis at the Last Supper.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #6 on: February 07, 2018, 12:51:43 AM »
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    • http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05502a.htm
     
    Epiklesis (Latin invocatio) is the name of a prayer that occurs in all Eastern liturgies (and originally in Western liturgies also) after the words of Institution, in which the celebrant prays that God may send down His Holy Spirit to change this bread and wine into the Body and Blood of His Son.
    .
    This form has given rise to one of the chief controversies between the Eastern and Western Churches, inasmuch as all Eastern schismatics now believe that the Epiklesis, and not the words of Institution, is the essential form (or at least the essential complement) of the sacrament.
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    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #7 on: February 07, 2018, 01:02:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on February 06, 2018, 07:02:13 PM
    Yes, I know that. But is the idea that transubstantation occurs at the Words of Institution a dogma that binds the entire Catholic Church (east and west); or is it merely a tradition of the West and therefore not binding in any way to Eastern Catholics? (like Purgatory or the Sacred Heart)
    I have a friend who left the Roman Rite and is now Melkite Orthodox Catholic. They are only required to acknowledge the Roman Pope as theu did before the Great Schism, they also are allowed by their agreement with Rome to keep everything as is with Orthodoxy. This means that they have the Epiklesia, they are not bound by any of the dogmatic declarations since 1054; Papal Infallability, Imaculate Conception, etc. They also do not share our views on Original sin. 

    To answer your question in short: They are Autocephalous and maintain the fullness of Orthodoxy, but are in commuunion with Rome according to the ancient understanding of "First amongst equals". The Eastern Rites are still entirely Orthodox in their Traditions.

    I don't know why the Romans don't have an Epiklesia, but the Orthodox consider this a grave theological error in our Liturgy. Some will even argue about validity due to it's absence. However, the fact that hosts turn into Blood and Flesh in the Roman Church shows that the Epiklesia is not mainly the vehicle for Transsubstantiation. The same applies to the Orthodox, so while we both see things differently we both have the Most Precious Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
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    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #8 on: February 07, 2018, 01:35:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Student of Qi on February 07, 2018, 01:02:43 AM
    I have a friend who left the Roman Rite and is now Melkite Orthodox Catholic. They are only required to acknowledge the Roman Pope as theu did before the Great Schism, they also are allowed by their agreement with Rome to keep everything as is with Orthodoxy. This means that they have the Epiklesia, they are not bound by any of the dogmatic declarations since 1054; Papal Infallability, Imaculate Conception, etc. They also do not share our views on Original sin.

    To answer your question in short: They are Autocephalous and maintain the fullness of Orthodoxy, but are in commuunion with Rome according to the ancient understanding of "First amongst equals". The Eastern Rites are still entirely Orthodox in their Traditions.

    I don't know why the Romans don't have an Epiklesia, but the Orthodox consider this a grave theological error in our Liturgy. Some will even argue about validity due to it's absence. However, the fact that hosts turn into Blood and Flesh in the Roman Church shows that the Epiklesia is not mainly the vehicle for Transsubstantiation. The same applies to the Orthodox, so while we both see things differently we both have the Most Precious Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
    I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly... Is your friend Orthodox or Catholic in an eastern rite? Also, I didn't know that eastern Catholic Churches weren't bound by dogmas like the Immaculate conception. Aren't dogmas supposed to be believed by the entire Church, east and west? I know that eastern churches keep their own unique traditions, but I'm pretty sure they still have to believe dogmas of the faith even if they don't have to focus, celebrate or even talk about them. 
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    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #9 on: February 07, 2018, 02:51:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on February 07, 2018, 01:35:10 PM
    I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly... Is your friend Orthodox or Catholic in an eastern rite? Also, I didn't know that eastern Catholic Churches weren't bound by dogmas like the Immaculate conception. Aren't dogmas supposed to be believed by the entire Church, east and west? I know that eastern churches keep their own unique traditions, but I'm pretty sure they still have to believe dogmas of the faith even if they don't have to focus, celebrate or even talk about them.
    In as simply as I can put it: The Melkite church/Rite is subject to Rome. However, Rome does not oblige them to accept the Defined Dogmas that were made after 1054. In the words of one of the late Melkite Patriarchs "We have everything in common with Orthodoxy, and almost nothing in common with the Latins (Roman Church)".
    All Eastern Orthodox maintain the claim that they are Catholic. To us Romans, we usually only consider you "Catholic" if you are subject to the Roman Pope. Inversely, the Orthodox will argue that it is us who are not Catholic.
    The friend is Catholic in an Eastern Rite, if that is how I can put it for you in a comprehensive way.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #10 on: February 07, 2018, 09:10:30 PM »
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    • Student, I have grave doubts that the Melkites are not bound by the Catholic Church dogmas pronounced after a certain date. All Catholics are bound by Catholic dogma. I have written to a Melkite Catholic website to ask.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #11 on: February 08, 2018, 09:16:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on February 07, 2018, 09:10:30 PM
    Student, I have grave doubts that the Melkites are not bound by the Catholic Church dogmas pronounced after a certain date. All Catholics are bound by Catholic dogma. I have written to a Melkite Catholic website to ask.

    That's not possible by divine law.  Dogmas are dogmas and must be accepted as such by all Catholics.  Period.
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    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #12 on: February 08, 2018, 09:43:17 AM »
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    • Ladislas is correct. However within different Catholic theological structures in different liturgical families the expression may be different. In all Eastern Catholic Churches the liturgical action is  concieved of in totality of Trinitarian action so it would be said that the liturgy is incomplete without the invocation of all. The Roman liturgy has the same elements with the spirit being invoked at the offertory the last invocation being the words of institution. This is a simplistic explanation
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #13 on: February 09, 2018, 04:46:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: confederate catholic on February 08, 2018, 09:43:17 AM
    Ladislas is correct. However within different Catholic theological structures in different liturgical families the expression may be different. In all Eastern Catholic Churches the liturgical action is  concieved of in totality of Trinitarian action so it would be said that the liturgy is incomplete without the invocation of all. The Roman liturgy has the same elements with the spirit being invoked at the offertory the last invocation being the words of institution. This is a simplistic explanation
    This is what could happen if the SSPX were to accept an arrangement with the Vatican.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Why doesn't the Roman Mass have an epiklesis?
    « Reply #14 on: February 09, 2018, 05:02:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: confederate catholic on February 08, 2018, 09:43:17 AM
    Ladislas is correct. However within different Catholic theological structures in different liturgical families the expression may be different. In all Eastern Catholic Churches the liturgical action is  concieved of in totality of Trinitarian action so it would be said that the liturgy is incomplete without the invocation of all. The Roman liturgy has the same elements with the spirit being invoked at the offertory the last invocation being the words of institution. This is a simplistic explanation
    Yes Ladi is correct. I am not disputing about ritual. I was referring to Student's claim about (Catholic) Melkites not being bound by dogma, as in purgatory and Immaculate Conception. He seems to be confusing Eastern Catholic with Orthodox schismatics.
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