Author Topic: What Old Catholic lines are valid?  (Read 210 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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What Old Catholic lines are valid?
« on: May 29, 2020, 10:28:26 PM »
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  • The only lineages I know of that I can say for sure are valid are the Duarte Costa line since it is just a vernacular version of the tridentine rite and the Old Roman Catholic Church (Arnold Harris Matthew) line since they retained the tridentine rite and have not "ordained" any women

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Old Catholic lines are valid?
    « Reply #1 on: May 29, 2020, 10:39:12 PM »
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  • Both those lines are polluted with uncertainties regarding the precise lineage of any given descendent.  Costa is not Old Catholic.  I would not risk my soul on either of these lines.


    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: What Old Catholic lines are valid?
    « Reply #2 on: May 29, 2020, 11:14:21 PM »
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  • Both those lines are polluted with uncertainties regarding the precise lineage of any given descendent.  Costa is not Old Catholic.  I would not risk my soul on either of these lines.
    What uncertainties are there with the Old Roman Catholic Church or Duarte Costa lines? They both have maintained the valid form. The duarte costa group still uses the vernacular tridentine rite. also, I consider pretty much any independent "Catholic" sect that rejects church teaching on papal infallibility and other subjects to be old catholic.

    Offline poche

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    Re: What Old Catholic lines are valid?
    « Reply #3 on: May 29, 2020, 11:36:11 PM »
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  • What uncertainties are there with the Old Roman Catholic Church or Duarte Costa lines? They both have maintained the valid form. The duarte costa group still uses the vernacular tridentine rite. also, I consider pretty much any independent "Catholic" sect that rejects church teaching on papal infallibility and other subjects to be old catholic.
    The Old Catholic Church now 'ordains' women to the priesthood and to the episcopate. Those ordinations are invalid because women cannot be ordained validly to the priesthood.  

    Offline maccabeansoft

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    Re: What Old Catholic lines are valid?
    « Reply #4 on: May 29, 2020, 11:39:49 PM »
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  • The Old Catholic Church now 'ordains' women to the priesthood and to the episcopate. Those ordinations are invalid because women cannot be ordained validly to the priesthood.  
    They also welcome gays and lesbians while ordaining openly gay men.

    Take a look:

    https://lgbtqreligiousarchives.org/collections/old-catholic-church
    Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the Antichrist. - Our Lady of La Salette 1846                                        


    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: What Old Catholic lines are valid?
    « Reply #5 on: May 30, 2020, 12:15:30 AM »
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  • The line of Utrecht  in the United States was valid line. In France, it went off nut, not in America. At least prior to the '70s.

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: What Old Catholic lines are valid?
    « Reply #6 on: May 30, 2020, 01:39:46 AM »
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  • The Old Catholic Church now 'ordains' women to the priesthood and to the episcopate. Those ordinations are invalid because women cannot be ordained validly to the priesthood.  
    Not all of those sects accept "ordaining" women, duarte costa's group, the mexican national catholic church, the old roman catholic church, and the polish national catholic church all reject that

    Offline poche

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    Re: What Old Catholic lines are valid?
    « Reply #7 on: May 30, 2020, 11:15:59 PM »
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  • They also welcome gays and lesbians while ordaining openly gay men.

    Take a look:

    https://lgbtqreligiousarchives.org/collections/old-catholic-church
    They may accept gays and lesbians. However the 'ordination' of women to the priesthood is invalid. The 'consecration' of women to the episcopate is invalid. Any 'mass' of confession or anointing of the sick, offered by those women would be invalid. Any priest (man of woman) ordained by the Old Catholic woman bishop would be invalid and any sacraments offered by those 'priests' priestesses' would be invalid. 
    It could also be possible that an official theology which admits openness to the ordination of women could also possibly be a cause for the invalidity of their sacraments.


    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: What Old Catholic lines are valid?
    « Reply #8 on: May 30, 2020, 11:59:27 PM »
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  • The only lineages I know of that I can say for sure are valid are the Duarte Costa line since it is just a vernacular version of the tridentine rite and the Old Roman Catholic Church (Arnold Harris Matthew) line since they retained the tridentine rite and have not "ordained" any women
    Duarte Costa was excommunicated vitando before he consecrated any bishops.  His line is absolutely not Catholic.
    The old catholic line is so squishy and so polluted it's not worth discussing. 

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: What Old Catholic lines are valid?
    « Reply #9 on: May 31, 2020, 12:06:28 AM »
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  • They may accept gays and lesbians. However the 'ordination' of women to the priesthood is invalid. The 'consecration' of women to the episcopate is invalid. Any 'mass' of confession or anointing of the sick, offered by those women would be invalid. Any priest (man of woman) ordained by the Old Catholic woman bishop would be invalid and any sacraments offered by those 'priests' priestesses' would be invalid.
    It could also be possible that an official theology which admits openness to the ordination of women could also possibly be a cause for the invalidity of their sacraments.
    Ordaining gays or women invalidates the ordination because both homosexuality and being female are  impediments to the reception of the sacrament.

    Offline poche

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    Re: What Old Catholic lines are valid?
    « Reply #10 on: May 31, 2020, 03:10:26 AM »
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  • Ordaining gays or women invalidates the ordination because both homosexuality and being female are  impediments to the reception of the sacrament.
    Being gay may be an impediment to the ordination of men but it is not an impediment which invalidates the sacrament. His ordination may be illicit but it is not invalid. Being a woman makes the sacrament invalid. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Old Catholic lines are valid?
    « Reply #11 on: May 31, 2020, 04:54:34 AM »
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  • What uncertainties are there with the Old Roman Catholic Church or Duarte Costa lines? They both have maintained the valid form. The duarte costa group still uses the vernacular tridentine rite. also, I consider pretty much any independent "Catholic" sect that rejects church teaching on papal infallibility and other subjects to be old catholic.

    Please read what I wrote.  It’s not about the Rite per se.  It’s about the fact that most of these lines are now untraceable, filled with guys who had dubious or unsubstantiated “orders” from somewhere else.  You would be very hard pressed to find a document trail all the way back.  It’s not uncommon in those groups for an alleged priest to show up and get consecrated without there having been any proof he was a priest.  It’s the same with a few of the Thuc lines.  So far only the des Laurier & Carmona lines remain reliable. 

    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: What Old Catholic lines are valid?
    « Reply #12 on: May 31, 2020, 06:42:32 AM »
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  • The Thuc line is a mess he was making Bishops on both sides at the same time. Carmona was working with the Novus Ordo when he was made a Bishop. I know it of Thuc's statement in the newspaper. Where is the abjuration of error from Carmona and Musey? Musey had been saying the Mass of Paul VI and had the Paul VI missal in his things when he died I saw this myself.


     

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