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Author Topic: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?  (Read 3972 times)

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Offline Soubirous

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Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2023, 05:17:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: 6 Million Oreos on May 29, 2023, 03:38:46 PM
    These practices conflate the roles of the faithful and the celebrant at Mass. It isn't for the faithful to know exactly what the priest is saying at every moment of the Mass. Those prayers are directed to GOD, after all.
    I agree. That's like eavesdropping. I don't dwell on those during Mass. But that doesn't mean we're forbidden to know in general.


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    People who brandish their hand missals should at least be coherent and clamor for a Mass in the vernacular.
    Non sequitur.


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    I mean, isn't it retarded that we have a religion that forces us
    Um, "retarded" and "forces us", in the same sentence as "we have a religion that"...? 


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    I still don't understand why people are so attached to things that only became commonplace in the Church because of 20th century modernists.
    A missal has lots more in it than just the parts of the Mass that the laity shouldn't speak themselves. Sure, it's wrong to be attached to created things, but how is it modernist to be "attached" to the words of longer unmemorized prayers, litanies, psalms?

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    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline 6 Million Oreos

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #61 on: May 29, 2023, 05:26:28 PM »
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    • Both the dialogue mass and the hand missal serve to make the liturgy more accessible to the faithful. The liturgy is not meant to be 100 percent accessible to the faithful. Not that it is hermetic, but its purpose is other than to be a spectacle for laypeople. Why do you think virtually all sanctuaries were veiled before the year 1500? This is still practiced amongst the easterners, with their use of the iconostasis that renders it impossible but to catch a few glimpses of what's happening at the altar. 

    I'll reiterate my point that I think those who promote the use of the hand missal should be logical and push for the mass to be said in English. What is the point of the priest celebrating mass in Latin when everyone behind him is reading a direct translation of everything he's saying? Maybe God just thinks latin sounds cool....
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    Offline 6 Million Oreos

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #62 on: May 29, 2023, 05:29:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Soubirous on May 29, 2023, 05:17:35 PM

    Um, "retarded" and "forces us", in the same sentence as "we have a religion that"...?


    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #63 on: May 29, 2023, 05:40:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: 6 Million Oreos on May 29, 2023, 05:26:28 PM
    I'll reiterate my point that I think those who promote the use of the hand missal should be logical and push for the mass to be said in English.

    That’s where it leads, and that’s why it’s modernist: If the Mass isn’t intelligible, you’re not participating (so said the English Protestants under Henry VIII, and the modernist liturgical movement of Lambert Beauduin).

    In fact, quite logically, the Novus Ordo now actively discourages the hand missal, since, having achieved a vernacular rite, it serves no purpose except to stop daydreaming (and it impedes “doing stuff” to “more fully participate”).

    Furthermore, the SSPX says Mass largely in the vernacular in parts of France and Germany.  So why a hand missal tgere??
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #64 on: May 29, 2023, 05:49:27 PM »
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    That’s where it leads, and that’s why it’s modernist:
    :facepalm:
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #65 on: May 29, 2023, 05:50:03 PM »
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    • Quote
    Both the dialogue mass and the hand missal serve to make the liturgy more accessible to the faithful. The liturgy is not meant to be 100 percent accessible to the faithful.
    :facepalm:
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    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #66 on: May 29, 2023, 05:52:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: 6 Million Oreos on May 29, 2023, 05:29:51 PM
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away.

    Touché. :laugh1: Gentle admonition in passing, hardly at all disturbed or frightened....
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    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #67 on: May 29, 2023, 05:54:27 PM »
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    • Quote
    LETTER
     In which Pope Pius X approves the work of the Bishop of Limerick
    on the writings of Cardinal Newman.
    To his Venerable Brother
    Edward Thomas Bishop of Limerick
    Again, Pope St Pius X was approving a book WRITTEN BY THE BISHOP OF LIMERICK....St Pius X was not endorsing everything that +Newman wrote.


    The fact that you can't see the difference is alarming.  :laugh2:
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #68 on: May 29, 2023, 06:01:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 29, 2023, 05:54:27 PM
    Again, Pope St Pius X was approving a book WRITTEN BY THE BISHOP OF LIMERICK....St Pius X was not endorsing everything that +Newman wrote.


    The fact that you can't see the difference is alarming.  :laugh2:

    There's no doubt that St. Pius X did not have the time to personally investigate / study the voluminous works of Newman.  He therefore deferred to the analysis done by this particular bishop.  Newman, being the typical Modernist, will intermingle orthodox statements with the Modernist ones, and someone who wanted to defend Newman could do so by cherry-picking (or focusing on) the orthodox statements.  Cardinal Manning at one point stated that he had found at least 10 heresies in the works of Newman, and always referred to Newman disparagingly as "Doctor Newman".  6 UK bishops denounced Newman to Rome for heresy.  But one need look no further than Newman's statement appealing to a future Pope to correct the definition of infallibility for irrefutable evidence that he was a Modernist.
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    Offline 6 Million Oreos

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #69 on: May 29, 2023, 06:02:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 29, 2023, 05:40:18 PM
    That’s where it leads, and that’s why it’s modernist: If the Mass isn’t intelligible, you’re not participating (so said the English Protestants under Henry VIII, and the modernist liturgical movement of Lambert Beauduin).

    In fact, quite logically, the Novus Ordo now actively discourages the hand missal, since, having achieved a vernacular rite, it serves no purpose except to stop daydreaming (and it impedes “doing stuff” to “more fully participate”).

    Furthermore, the SSPX says Mass largely in the vernacular in parts of France and Germany.  So why a hand missal tgere??
    Right, I only moderate my statements in saying that the hand missal isn't modernist but is a watering-down that facilitates Modernism. That's a word that I think is best-suited to refer to the formally perverse ideas and praxis of the Conciliar Church. 

    The problem is that if one weighs things out with a full view of Tradition, taking into account the truly perennial practices of our religion, then a frighteningly large amount of the practices we have begin to look "modernist."

    Do men and women sit mixed in our churches? Do priests ever refuse absolution to recidivists? Do we receive communion as frequently as we wish with or without preparation? Do laypeople serve at the altar?

    This is all "modernism" if we paint with a broad enough brush.
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    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #70 on: May 29, 2023, 06:12:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: 6 Million Oreos on May 29, 2023, 05:26:28 PM
    What is the point of the priest celebrating mass in Latin when everyone behind him is reading a direct translation of everything he's saying? Maybe God just thinks latin sounds cool....

    I can't speak for anyone else. Yeah about all the miming Et cuм spiritu tuo. But that's the beauty of keeping my eyes either on the missal or on the altar and not on what anyone else is doing.

    In advance I read the Propers because it seems that it helps the faith to be at least aware of what's what during the liturgical year. Also, I understand the Latin (being one of those "south of Calais" people), and I don't see the evil in simultaneously hearing and reading along the fully non-dialogue parts from Introit to Last Gospel. There's a fullness to it this way, and for me it's devotional.

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    The liturgy is not meant to be 100 percent accessible to the faithful. Not that it is hermetic, but its purpose is other than to be a spectacle for laypeople. Why do you think virtually all sanctuaries were veiled before the year 1500?

    I'm not arguing with that. But I'm not holding out for a return to perfect worship during my lifetime. That would simply invite despair, no?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #71 on: May 29, 2023, 06:14:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 29, 2023, 06:01:13 PM
    There's no doubt that St. Pius X did not have the time to personally investigate / study the voluminous works of Newman.  He therefore deferred to the analysis done by this particular bishop.  Newman, being the typical Modernist, will intermingle orthodox statements with the Modernist ones, and someone who wanted to defend Newman could do so by cherry-picking (or focusing on) the orthodox statements.  Cardinal Manning at one point stated that he had found at least 10 heresies in the works of Newman, and always referred to Newman disparagingly as "Doctor Newman".  6 UK bishops denounced Newman to Rome for heresy.  But one need look no further than Newman's statement appealing to a future Pope to correct the definition of infallibility for irrefutable evidence that he was a Modernist.

    Translation:

    “Pius X couldn’t possibly have the time to disagree with me, and entering his letter into the AAS doesn’t mean anything (but for you RR people resisting stuff in the AAS, well, you’re destroying the magisterium!).”

    :facepalm:
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    Offline 6 Million Oreos

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #72 on: May 29, 2023, 06:22:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Soubirous on May 29, 2023, 06:12:47 PM
    I can't speak for anyone else. Yeah about all the miming Et cuм spiritu tuo. But that's the beauty of keeping my eyes either on the missal or on the altar and not on what anyone else is doing.

    In advance I read the Propers because it seems that it helps the faith to be at least aware of what's what during the liturgical year. Also, I understand the Latin (being one of those "south of Calais" people), and I don't see the evil in simultaneously hearing and reading along the fully non-dialogue parts from Introit to Last Gospel. There's a fullness to it this way, and for me it's devotional.
    If you understand latin to a large extent, then you must enjoy the richness of the prayers, proper and ordinary, of the Mass and you should be thankful, for the liturgy is absolutely wondrous.

    However, you've been saying something in a couple of posts that is just not true. People, be they from certain meridional parts of latin countries or not, do not understand latin simply in virtue of their mother tongue. This has not been the case for quite some time.
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    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #73 on: May 29, 2023, 06:45:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: 6 Million Oreos on May 29, 2023, 06:22:21 PM
    If you understand latin to a large extent, then you must enjoy the richness of the prayers, proper and ordinary, of the Mass and you should be thankful, for the liturgy is absolutely wondrous.

    However, you've been saying something in a couple of posts that is just not true. People, be they from certain meridional parts of latin countries or not, do not understand latin simply in virtue of their mother tongue. This has not been the case for quite some time.

    Thankful I am.

    But not the standard national languages as spoken now, rather, the much older obscure forms that nobody's commonly spoken for ages and that young adults in those countries today barely recognize. I learned it in infancy from people born in the 19th century who hadn't been reprogrammed by liberal public education. If I say that I was astonished at my first [adult] TLM at how much I understood without a missal, I'm not making it up. I also remember the old mass from when I was little. True, nobody carried a missal back then.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #74 on: May 29, 2023, 06:47:59 PM »
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    • Quote
    What is the point of the priest celebrating mass in Latin when everyone behind him is reading a direct translation of everything he's saying?
    :confused:  This question makes no theological sense.
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