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Author Topic: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?  (Read 10298 times)

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Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2023, 03:41:38 PM »
Newman absolutely was a Modernist and manifested this when, grudgingly accepting Vatican I, he appealed to a future Pope to revise the teaching.  That's Modernism in a nutshell.
I don't think Newman was necessarily modernist for this. He was merely saying that he would wait to see what continued magisterial tradition would make of the Church infallibly defining Her ability to infallibly define.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2023, 03:55:01 PM »

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I would maintain that the use of hand missal isn't "modernist," at least, not any more modernist than the dialogue mass. 


There is absolutely no comparison between the lay missal and a dialogue mass.  The former is praiseworthy while the latter is full-blown modernism.


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It is confused, as is the DM. These practices conflate the roles of the faithful and the celebrant at Mass. It isn't for the faithful to know exactly what the priest is saying at every moment of the Mass. Those prayers are directed to GOD, after all. 
The Catholic Faith is not secretive.  The prayers of the Mass are beautiful and glorious because they praise God.  There is no reason to hide what the priest is saying, nor is there any benefit for the faithful to not pray along with the priest.


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People who brandish their hand missals should at least be coherent and clamor for a Mass in the vernacular. 

The 2 have nothing to do with one another.  70% of the prayers are not said by the altar boys, so a dialogue mass would still be silent 70% of the time.  While one can silently pray 100% of the prayers using a missal.


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I mean, isn't it retarded that we have a religion that forces us to dress up on Sundays and assist at a ceremony that you and your family won't remotely profit from unless you pony up 60 bucks for every member of your family to be able to follow along in their missals? L0l.
The beauty of the Catholic Faith is that we are allowed to worship God in many ways, as long as we attend Mass.  No one is forced to use a missal and that's never been Church teaching.


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As for the guy who mentioned the printing press, he is defeated by his own argument. There is a reason that catholic civilisation waited four centuries to start printing lay missals and it's not because of how luxurious and cost-prohibitive the printing of small books was.
 Cost plus also, many people were illiterate.

Also, many people don't like to read and think it's a distraction.  And that's fine.  You are free to "pray the Mass" in other ways.  There's no one, right way.


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It's because people from those ages would have thought it abnormal that lay people should be scanning a miniature missal instead of praying at Mass. 

Some people like to read prayers; others don't.  Live and let live.


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If you don't believe me, then explain the ridiculous amounts of missal-sized prayer books that litter European flea-markets. There wouldn't be so many if only 17th century Elon Musk could afford them.
:jester:  This is mostly due to European atheism and the abandonment of Catholicism.



Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2023, 03:57:09 PM »
Newman absolutely was a Modernist and manifested this when, grudgingly accepting Vatican I, he appealed to a future Pope to revise the teaching.  That's Modernism in a nutshell.

Says the fool who has never read him, but for kicks and giggles, please post the quote and citation.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2023, 03:58:00 PM »
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I don't think Newman was necessarily modernist for this. He was merely saying that he would wait to see what continued magisterial tradition would make of the Church infallibly defining Her ability to infallibly define.
He was openly questioning a defined dogma, defined by a dogmatic council.  He was suggesting that Vatican 1 could be "overturned" or "re-interpreted" as if the Holy Ghost (who inspires all dogma, through the pope) could be wrong, or could "correct" Himself later.

Preposterous idea!  An absolute insult to the Holy Ghost and the Papacy.  Heresy in a nutshell. 

Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2023, 03:58:22 PM »
No, there was a difference.  St Pius X directly endorsed the lay missal, since the act of putting it together was an act of rome.  It was the papal approval of a Liturgical item.

In the case of +Newman, St Pius X endorsed an endorsement.  It was indirect. 

No.  It is entered into the AAS.