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Author Topic: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?  (Read 5618 times)

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Offline 6 Million Oreos

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Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2023, 03:53:19 AM »
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    • What annoys me about the dialogue Mass is that, like other practices furnished by the Liturgical Renewal, there is a theological motive- namely the pre-Novus Ordo intent to emphasise the priesthood of the faithful. I don't think the DM is perverse in itself, but we have the advantage of historical hindsight. Knowing that these things were used to lay the foundations for the New Mass, should we not reject them? And for those who think that we should "follow" Abp. Lefebvre, is it not inconceivable that he had other things to worry about of far greater importance and so he simply followed the customs of recent years? Not to mention, he didn't get to see the years when the modernist Ecclesia Dei communities would celebrate a prereformed liturgy that ought to make every SSPX priest feel ashamed...

    Quick question: Does anyone know if the seminaries of the Resistance practice the dialogue Mass?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #16 on: May 29, 2023, 06:21:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: 6 Million Oreos on May 29, 2023, 03:53:19 AM
    What annoys me about the dialogue Mass is that, like other practices furnished by the Liturgical Renewal, there is a theological motive- namely the pre-Novus Ordo intent to emphasise the priesthood of the faithful. I don't think the DM is perverse in itself, but we have the advantage of historical hindsight. Knowing that these things were used to lay the foundations for the New Mass, should we not reject them? And for those who think that we should "follow" Abp. Lefebvre, is it not inconceivable that he had other things to worry about of far greater importance and so he simply followed the customs of recent years? Not to mention, he didn't get to see the years when the modernist Ecclesia Dei communities would celebrate a prereformed liturgy that ought to make every SSPX priest feel ashamed...

    Quick question: Does anyone know if the seminaries of the Resistance practice the dialogue Mass?

    Good post.

    I’m waiting for a response regarding the Resistance seminary and the dialogue Mass.  
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #17 on: May 29, 2023, 07:34:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on May 28, 2023, 09:27:55 PM
    Archbishop Lefebvre never intended the dialogue Mass to be introduced in places where it was not custom. He only ever intended it for use in the seminaries and in those places where the custom was already established. It is certainly an abuse for the SSPX to be promoting it/allowing it outside of those situations.

    I can't verify this one way or the other, but it's a good point. The custom might have been established in some places by 1969. "Allowing" the DM or not forbidding it is NOT the same thing as having an agenda to push the DM in all places.

    Around the turn of the millenium, for example, I heard stories of seminarians who went on the Europe trip. On one occasion, they asked where they could say Mass in some church (it might have been an SSPX location). Our guys suggested one of the side altars (it was a large church). The local was puzzled, and asked, "wouldn't the responses at the two concurrent Masses be an issue?" and they were like, "No, we'll be saying a regular Low Mass, not a dialogue Mass". In other words, at this particular location in Europe, "Mass" meant "Dialogue Mass" by default. They assumed you'd be having a Dialogue Mass.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #18 on: May 29, 2023, 08:41:39 AM »
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    • I received a response saying that yes, all Masses at the seminary are dialogue Masses, and that Lefebvre wanted all Masses to be dialogue Masses, except in the Anglo-Saxon countries where this [novelty] never became a custom.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #19 on: May 29, 2023, 09:44:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on May 28, 2023, 11:27:05 PM
    Wait are the lay people not supposed to read those lines internally?

    I've just been following the instructions of the missal, and going through it as the priest does
    Yes, internally, they may follow along if they like, but speaking the words of the Canon seems to be, in some way, usurping the role of the priest.  Or maybe not.  If they wish to read the words in tandem with the priest (to the extent they can follow them), that might be more in the nature of a private devotion, but it would be kind of odd.  As long as no heretical notion accompanies it, that's their call.

    Not even in the Novus Ordo do the faithful read the Canon aloud in unison with the priest, unless it would be some hyper-modernist congregation where they are all eaten up with the notion of "the assembly celebrates the Mass in union with the presider".  You wouldn't encounter this with the Saturday evening "golf Mass" at some parish in the suburbs, I'll put it that way.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #20 on: May 29, 2023, 09:46:19 AM »
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    • Liturgy Trivia: 

    There was no such thing as hand missals before 1909 (and the one who invented them was the proto-liturgical modernist, Dom Lambert Beauduin).
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #21 on: May 29, 2023, 10:46:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 29, 2023, 08:41:39 AM
    I received a response saying that yes, all Masses at the seminary are dialogue Masses, and that Lefebvre wanted all Masses to be dialogue Masses, except in the Anglo-Saxon countries where this [novelty] never became a custom.
    Dear Sean,

    So why does every SSPX school in the U.S. "groom" innocent children with the Dialogue Mass??  The explanation given to me is "so that the students will not fall asleep during Holy Mass"--from an impeccable source.  I huonder what the true motivation is.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #22 on: May 29, 2023, 11:01:34 AM »
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    • Sean, if you want to give the quasi-heresies of +Newman a pass simply because Pope St Pius X endorsed him in an indirect manner, then you must also give the Laity Missal a pass because St Pius X DIRECTLY endorsed it as the best means for the faithful to attend mass by "praying the prayers along with the priest" (and he was talking silently, not a dialogue).

    Point is, the lay missal was explicitly endorsed by Pope St Pius X.  It's not modernist.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #23 on: May 29, 2023, 11:04:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 29, 2023, 11:01:34 AM
    Sean, if you want to give the quasi-heresies of +Newman a pass simply because Pope St Pius X endorsed him in an indirect manner, then you must also give the Laity Missal a pass because St Pius X DIRECTLY endorsed it as the best means for the faithful to attend mass by "praying the prayers along with the priest" (and he was talking silently, not a dialogue).

    Point is, the lay missal was explicitly endorsed by Pope St Pius X.  It's not modernist.
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    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #24 on: May 29, 2023, 11:16:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on May 29, 2023, 09:44:19 AM
    If they wish to read the words in tandem with the priest (to the extent they can follow them), that might be more in the nature of a private devotion, but it would be kind of odd. 

    I follow along only as far as Psalm 25, the Lavabo. Past that point, most of the English side of the Canon only gave me unwanted NOM flashbacks.

    For newbies it does help to read through completely a few times well before/outside Mass so as to be in a more fitting state of mind. Still, the sort of participatio that was in truth urged by St. Pius X doesn't exactly happen easily without purposeful preparation. Absent that, the DM can risk becoming an unfortunately appealing crutch.
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    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #25 on: May 29, 2023, 11:20:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on May 29, 2023, 10:46:04 AM
    I huonder what the true motivation is.

    I see what you did there... good one!
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #26 on: May 29, 2023, 11:21:41 AM »
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    Offline 6 Million Oreos

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #27 on: May 29, 2023, 11:28:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 29, 2023, 08:41:39 AM
    I received a response saying that yes, all Masses at the seminary are dialogue Masses, and that Lefebvre wanted all Masses to be dialogue Masses, except in the Anglo-Saxon countries where this [novelty] never became a custom.
    Lame. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #28 on: May 29, 2023, 11:30:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on May 29, 2023, 11:21:41 AM
    Chewie? Wookiee? I don't get it.

    Someone is said to be using the “Chewbacca defense” when the supporting arguments are irrelevant to the conclusion, as here:

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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: What is the problem with the "Dialogue Mass"?
    « Reply #29 on: May 29, 2023, 11:48:20 AM »
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    • Quote
    There was no such thing as hand missals before 1909 (and the one who invented them was the proto-liturgical modernist, Dom Lambert Beauduin).
    Right.  This is a prime example of a chewbacca argument...."a modernist was involved, therefore it's modernist."  :facepalm: 


    The truth is, in St Pius X's days, about 95% of Roman officials were modernist.  So your argument is lame.
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