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Author Topic: What canons speak of this?  (Read 1431 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What canons speak of this?
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2020, 04:08:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on June 01, 2020, 04:05:53 PM
    Could you show me any proof for this? I doubt they changed their rites in any substantial manner. If they did it was probably like the 1962 rites of the sacraments that are valid but have stuff such as the bishops taking turns with imposing hands in episcopal consecration.

    No, I've studied the "changes", and they were extremely minor ... nothing that would have any bearing on either validity or Catholicity.
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #16 on: June 01, 2020, 07:25:27 PM »
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    • My litmus test is Catholic. I told you that there were 33 Bishops who did not attend the Council. Some attended the first session and did not return. Were the sisters wrong about Archbishop Pearce yes I didn't know that Catholic Sisters were supposed to be infallible.

    Just because you have not read a book or know it exists makes it not existent? Come on don't be a basement dweller do some research
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #17 on: June 01, 2020, 07:43:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Aristotl on June 01, 2020, 07:25:27 PM
    My litmus test is Catholic.

    No, it really isn't.

    Name a bishop who did not "accept" John XXIII.  While you're at it, please define your use of the word "accept".

    Which of the 33 did not attend Vatican II out of principle?  Many were not of good health, while some had other priorities.
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #18 on: June 01, 2020, 11:07:15 PM »
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    • The docuмents are available you just have to look. By the way please accept my apology for being rude to you. That isn't the Christian or Catholic way. I will look through my books and see if I can find the one that refers to those who attended etc. 
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    Offline poche

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #19 on: June 02, 2020, 11:41:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 01, 2020, 04:07:06 PM
    No, the Byzantine Rite changes were extremely minor, mostly consisting of some melodies.

    According to you, then, the hierarchy has defected.  Every single Catholic bishop "accepted John XXIII".  There was perhaps a single bishop who did not attend the Council out of principle.

    Your litmus test for being Catholic and orthodox is utterly absurd.

    You ducked for cover early about the "pure" bishops, but you've come out with exactly what I suspected.  And then these nuns cover their tracks by lying that Pearce didn't attend Vatican II.
    While you are at it didn't Archbishop Lefebvre accept Pope John XXIII all during his tenure as Pope? Wasn't it only later that he had misgivings?  
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #20 on: June 03, 2020, 12:30:09 AM »
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    • S far as I understand it you are absolutely right. Paul VI excommunicated him and Thuc both and they both recent their error. Amazingly enough to fight with John Paul !!
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    Offline poche

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #21 on: June 03, 2020, 11:21:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Aristotl on June 03, 2020, 12:30:09 AM
    S far as I understand it you are absolutely right. Paul VI excommunicated him and Thuc both and they both recent their error. Amazingly enough to fight with John Paul !!
    No you are mistaken. Pope Paul XI did not excommunicate Archbishop Lefebvre. That was Pope John Paul II in 1988 after the consecrations of the three SSPX bishops.  
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #22 on: June 06, 2020, 08:22:21 PM »
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    • Yes, he did and the Archbishops recanted their errors. Yes, I know John Paul II did this also Check the AAS Acts of the Apostolic See of Paul VI. You will find this if you look.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #23 on: June 06, 2020, 10:45:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Aristotl on June 06, 2020, 08:22:21 PM
    Yes, he did and the Archbishops recanted their errors. Yes, I know John Paul II did this also Check the AAS Acts of the Apostolic See of Paul VI. You will find this if you look.
    Can you provide a link?
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #24 on: June 06, 2020, 10:58:10 PM »
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    • To my knowledge, it is not online. I have seen it though I used to have from Pope Pius XII through PaulVI. That is where you will also see the abjuration of John XXIII back past the counsel of Trent. I will check to see if a friend has the PaulVI AAS. If not I will see if I can find what year this was done.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #25 on: June 07, 2020, 10:39:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Aristotl on June 06, 2020, 10:58:10 PM
    To my knowledge, it is not online. I have seen it though I used to have from Pope Pius XII through PaulVI. That is where you will also see the abjuration of John XXIII back past the counsel of Trent. I will check to see if a friend has the PaulVI AAS. If not I will see if I can find what year this was done.
    During the time of Pope Paul VI there was disagreement and there were angry meetings but Pope Paul VI did not excommunicate Archbishop Lefebvre. 
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #26 on: June 08, 2020, 06:46:56 PM »
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    • Yes Paul VI did excommunicate Archbishop Lefvebe was it the formal ex-communication no it was simple and the Archbishop recanted the error and the ex-communication was lifted. Again check in the AAS (Acts of the Apostolic See in Latin Acts Apostolicae Sedis and you will find it. This is published once a year by the Vatican and it was to be read every year. So the Priest would understand what Rome had set down. If you did not know the AAS existed you would not be aware of the fact that John XXIII abricated back past the Council of Trent July 25th, 1960 This appeared in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis of August 15, 1960.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #27 on: June 08, 2020, 08:14:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Aristotl on June 08, 2020, 06:46:56 PM
    If you did not know the AAS existed you would not be aware of the fact that John XXIII abricated back past the Council of Trent July 25th, 1960 This appeared in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis of August 15, 1960.
    What point are you trying to make?

    July 25, 1960 was a Moto Proprio changing/simplifying certain rubrics of the Roman breviary and missal. It starts on page 593 of the 1960 volume, if anyone is interested.

    https://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/docuмents/AAS-52-1960-ocr.pdf
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #28 on: June 09, 2020, 07:30:21 AM »
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    • It was John XXIII that changed the Mass not Paul VI
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What canons speak of this?
    « Reply #29 on: June 09, 2020, 08:10:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Aristotl on June 09, 2020, 07:30:21 AM
    It was John XXIII that changed the Mass not Paul VI

    Yes, but these were relatively-minor changes, little different than what previous Popes had done ... with the exception of St. Joseph in the Canon.  Pius XII changed Catholic Liturgy more than John XXIII did.  Pius XII started Bugnini on the path of his liturgical experimentation, and John XXIII actually kicked him out and put a stop to it.
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