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Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 16838 times)

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Offline LeDeg

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  • Apocalypse 18

    [23] And the light of the lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth, for all nations have been deceived by thy enchantments. [24] And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Apocalypse 18

    [23] And the light of the lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth, for all nations have been deceived by thy enchantments. [24] And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

    Powerful and haunting verses. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline LeDeg

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  • Matt. 24

    [45]Who, thinkest thou, is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath appointed over his family, to give them meat in season.
    [46] Blessed is that servant, whom when his lord shall come he shall find so doing. [47] Amen I say to you, he shall place him over all his goods. [48] But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord is long a coming: [49] And shall begin to strike his fellow servants, and shall eat and drink with drunkards: [50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day that he hopeth not, and at an hour that he knoweth not:
    [51] And shall separate him, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline Yeti

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  • Good old Struthio, I wonder what ever happened to him? I haven't seen him on here in a year or two.

    His theory outlined here gets bonus points for cleverness, but it's obviously wrong. The "consummation of the world" means the end of the world, not the beginning of some time period before the end of the world. I can't imagine how he can get that interpretation from reading these passages. If the "consummation of the world" refers to a time period, what defines the beginning of that time period? He never explained this, and the passages he quoted don't say that either, since that's not what they're saying.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Good old Struthio, I wonder what ever happened to him? I haven't seen him on here in a year or two.

    His theory outlined here gets bonus points for cleverness, but it's obviously wrong. The "consummation of the world" means the end of the world, not the beginning of some time period before the end of the world. I can't imagine how he can get that interpretation from reading these passages. If the "consummation of the world" refers to a time period, what defines the beginning of that time period? He never explained this, and the passages he quoted don't say that either, since that's not what they're saying.

    Yeti,

    Yeah, miss Struthio greatly. 

    Obviously wrong? That's merely an assertion. There's what, 11 pages or 12, in the thread where he goes into the language of the relevant verses, quotes fathers, etc. He lays it out and presents an argument, with support. He addresses what's thrown at him and engages in genuine discussion and engages his opponents, and I think largely gets the best of them, on the merits. "Obviously wrong" is merely an assertion divorced from the 11 or 12 pages that went before. 

    I'm not saying he's right, but show him in a persuasive argument that he's wrong. I haven't seen a persuasive argument against him in this thread. 

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Yeti

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  • Struthio is confusing the term "consummation of the world" with the term "end times". The "end times" or the "latter days" (note the plural in both those expressions, which does indicate an ongoing period) is not the same thing as the "consummation of the world", for the simple reason that 1. we don't know if we are in the end times, and 2. that the world is not yet consummated. The consummation of something is the end of it.

    Struthio could have verified all of these things with a simple dictionary. He seems like a smart guy, so it's hard to see how he has trouble with such simple words.

    His reference to the prophecy of Our Lord is problematic because Our Lord is predicting both the end of the world and the destruction of Jerusalem in the same passage, and it is hard to see which statements refer to which events, and which refer to both events.

    For example, he quotes the "abomination of desolation" as being a sign of the end of the world. But this has also been applied to the destruction of Jerusalem. I think it was in Gueranger that I read that the abomination of desolation that warned the Jєωs to flee Jerusalem was the putting up of a statue of a pagan god in the temple of Jerusalem. As soon as the Romans did that, the converted Jєωs fled Jerusalem.

    At the very least, such obscure passages can hardly be adduced to prove anything as clear and definite as he is trying to argue.

    Basically, the consummation of the world means the end of the world. Just look the word up in a dictionary. We are not in the end of the world.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Struthio is confusing the term "consummation of the world" with the term "end times". The "end times" or the "latter days" (note the plural in both those expressions, which does indicate an ongoing period) is not the same thing as the "consummation of the world", for the simple reason that 1. we don't know if we are in the end times, and 2. that the world is not yet consummated. The consummation of something is the end of it.

    Struthio could have verified all of these things with a simple dictionary. He seems like a smart guy, so it's hard to see how he has trouble with such simple words.

    His reference to the prophecy of Our Lord is problematic because Our Lord is predicting both the end of the world and the destruction of Jerusalem in the same passage, and it is hard to see which statements refer to which events, and which refer to both events.

    For example, he quotes the "abomination of desolation" as being a sign of the end of the world. But this has also been applied to the destruction of Jerusalem. I think it was in Gueranger that I read that the abomination of desolation that warned the Jєωs to flee Jerusalem was the putting up of a statue of a pagan god in the temple of Jerusalem. As soon as the Romans did that, the converted Jєωs fled Jerusalem.

    At the very least, such obscure passages can hardly be adduced to prove anything as clear and definite as he is trying to argue.

    Basically, the consummation of the world means the end of the world. Just look the word up in a dictionary. We are not in the end of the world.

    Merriam Webster is not going to solve the issue by its definitions of translations of Latin and Greek words coming from the mouth of God.  

    Vatican 1 is not referring to the destruction of Jerusalem when it says shepherds and pastors until "the end of the world [age]," consummationem saeculi, and neither is Our Lord in Matthew 28:20 and His with you "until the end of the world [age]," consummationem saeculi, and the Olivet Discourse addresses, at least in part, the question of the Apostles as to the "consummationis saeculi,"so the passage is clearly useful in analyzing the other uses of the term, and the "abomination of desolation" has been associated with an occurrence with regard to the Church and not only Jerusalem. 

    I think Struthio has established that the "consummation" is not an end point or a single point in time through means more reliable and persuasive than Merriam Webster.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • In the original post, Struthio references the Opus Imperfectum, a work attributed to John Chrysostom, and on which St. Thomas is said to lavish high praise. Contrary to what Struthio thought at the time, there is a two volume translation of the Opus Imperfectum into English:  

    Incomplete Commentary on Matthew (Opus imperfectum) (Ancient Christian Texts, Volume 2)
    by Thomas C. Oden (Editor), James A. Kellerman (Translator)

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0830829024/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0830829024&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20


    https://www.logos.com/product/162575/incomplete-commentary-on-matthew-opus-imperfectum-volumes-1-and-2

    I've just started reading it, but it is a fascinating work.

    Here's an excerpt from the sermon referenced by Struthio in the original post, The Forty-Ninth Homily on Matthew 24:



    Quote
    What shall we say then? All these things have to be understood spiritually in this manner: “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” and “So when you see the desolating sacrilege … standing in the holy place.” That is to say, when you see a godless heresy, which is the army of Antichrist, standing in the holy places of the church, at that time “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,” that is, let those who are in Christianity hasten to the Scriptures. For just as the real Jєω is a Christian, as the apostle says (“For he is not a real Jєω who is one outwardly.… He is a Jєω who is one inwardly”), so also the real Judah is Christianity, whose name is understood to mean “confession.” But the mountains are the Scriptures of the apostles and prophets, concerning whom it is said, “Glorious are you, more majestic than the everlasting mountains.” And again he says about the church, “On the holy mount stands the city he founded.” And why does he order all Christians to hasten to the Scriptures at this time? Because at this time, ever since a heresy lay hold of those churches, there can be no other test of true Christianity or any other refuge of Christians who want to know the truth of the faith than the divine Scriptures. For previously he was showing in many ways what the church of Christ is and what heathenness is, but now those who want to know what the true church of Christ is can know it in no other way than only through the Scriptures. Why? Because also the heretics in their schism have all these things that are rightly Christ’s in truth: they likewise have churches, the divine Scriptures also, bishops and the rest of the ranks of clergy, baptism, the Eucharist in other respects, and all the other things, and finally Christ. Therefore, if someone wishes to know what the true church of Christ is, how will he know it amid the confusion of such similarity unless he learns it only through the Scriptures?

    Thomas C. Oden and Gerald L. Bray, eds., Incomplete Commentary on Matthew (Opus Imperfectum), trans. James A. Kellerman, vol. 1 & 2, Ancient Christian Texts (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic: An Imprint of InterVarsity Press, 2010), 382–383.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline songbird

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  • Hm?  Latter times, and end times.  Are these not 2 different times?  I thought we were on to latter times. Our Lady has a definite battle with Satan.  Satan has been given time.  Is his time up, or is it coming to an end soon?  Matthew 24, Christ's words:  "And I refer you to the prophet Daniel."  It states in Chapter 11-12 that the Sacrifice of the Mass will come to an end(suspended) for 3 and a half years. 

    Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me Satan knows his time is coming to an end, end of the 100 years? that was spoken of by Pope Leo XIII.  Therefore I am looking for the establishment of Our Lady's Immaculate Heart to reign.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Things started going haywire from the late fourteenth and 15th century or so on, slowly at first, the influx of paganism and esoteric hermeticism  during the Renaissance, the relaxation of disciplinary laws regarding usury, the speculations regarding the salvation vel non of those in the New World who had not heard the Gospel, and  then the Reformation and the revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries. 
    Indeed. The prophecies of St Bridget testify to the general corruption of the world during the 14th century.


    Also an interesting thread.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Well, from the perspective of the saints, the world is always in a state of corruption ... as there's always been sin in the world.  Relatively speaking, however, from our perspective, the 14th / 15th centuries may well have been heaven on earth.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Well, from the perspective of the saints, the world is always in a state of corruption ... as there's always been sin in the world.  Relatively speaking, however, from our perspective, the 14th / 15th centuries may well have been heaven on earth.
    Indeed, though it seems even the religious were corrupt. God also complains in other chapters about the state of the clergy. . Yeah compared to the near complete satanic inversion today even those 'bad times' seem 'heavenly'.

    From book 4.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20200105191849/http://www.dailycatholic.org/4bri3537.htm
    Quote
    God continued in revealing to the bride the following: "Hear now what My enemies do as opposed to what My friends once did. My friends used to enter monasteries out of wise fear and divine charity. But those who are now in the monasteries go off into the world out of pride and cupidity, following their selfish will and living for the pleasures of their body. The judgment for those who die with such a disposition is that they shall neither experience nor obtain heavenly joy but only endless punishment in hell.

    "Know, too, that those who live in a cloister but are forced by divine charity and against their own will to become superiors shall not be counted in that number. Knights, moreover, who used to bear arms, were prepared to give their lives for justice and to shed their blood for the sake of the holy faith by helping the needy to obtain justice and by restraining evildoers and keeping them humble.

    "Yet, now hear how far they have turned away. Nowadays they prefer to die in war for the sake of pride and cupidity and envy, on the promptings of the devil, rather than to live according to My commands in order to obtain everlasting joy. Therefore, the wages of a just condemnation shall be given to all those who die with such a disposition. This means that devils will be given to their souls to be eternally joined with them as their wages. However, those who do serve Me are to receive their soldier's wages together with the heavenly army forever without end."

    The Son then speaks: "Daughter, how stands the world now?"

    She answers: "Like an open sack to which everyone runs, like a man running without caring what he is following."

    The Lord answers: "Therefore, I am right to go with my plow over the earth, plowing over Gentiles and Christians, sparing neither old nor young, neither poor nor rich. Each shall be judged according to his or her own righteousness, and each shall die in his or her own sin, and their homes shall be left without inhabitants. However, I shall not do this until the consummation."

    She replied: "O Lord, do not get angry if I speak. Send some of your friends to warn and admonish them about their danger!"

    And the Lord said: "It is written that when the rich man despaired of his own salvation in hell, he asked that someone might be sent to warn his brothers so that they would not perish in the same way. The answer to him was: 'That shall in no way be done, for they have Moses and the prophets to teach them.' So I tell you now: They have the Gospels and the sayings of the prophets, they have the words and examples of the holy doctors, they have reason and intelligence.

    "Let them make use of these things, and they will be saved. If I send you, you would not be able to cry out loud enough to be heard. If I send My friends, there are but few of them, and if they cry out, they will scarcely be heard. However, I will send My friends to those I choose, and they shall prepare the way for God."
    Just to keep the thread on topic I have bolded the sentence with the term 'consummation'.

    Those last three paragraphs though....