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Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 1216 times)

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Offline poche

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"Lo, I shall be with you until the end of the ages." Jesus' last words to his apostles

Offline Struthio

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Thanks trad123, for posting the quotes concerning the consummatio.

As far as I can see, there is one quote addressing our question, at what time span or point in time the consummatio will happen.

Quote from: St. Augustine
It must needs happen that these two kinds of pastors, some dying, others succeeding them, should continue in the Catholic Church even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord.

Following Augustine, the apostolic succession should continue even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord. This is clearly opposed to my view.

Interestingly though, Augustine distinguishes between "the end of time" and "the judgment". He deems it necessary to add "the judgment" to "the end of time". On the other hand, the Vatican Council does not mention Judgment Day.


To show that I am not forming my opinions out of thin air, ignoring fathers and doctors of the church, here a quote of St. John Chrysostom. His Opus imperfectum can be found there:

http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/page12.html
http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/OpusImperfectum.pdf

The context is Mt 21,24: "For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be." The destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 which John Chrysostom sees as a prefiguration of what will happen at the consummatio mundi:

Quote from: St. John Chrysostom, Opus imperfectum, homily XLIX
Sicut illi tale facinus commiserunt, quale numquam commissum est, nec est committendum: sic et super illos talis sententia venit, qualis numquam venit, nec veniet. Haec aptius est de consummatione mundi suscipere, cujus figura fuit tribulatio illa. Tunc vere talis erit tribulatio, qualis numquam fuit. Tunc dicent homines, Aperiat se terra, et glutiat nos.

In the same way in which they [the Jews] have committed such a crime [deicide] as has never been committed before and never will be committed in the future, in that same way comes the appropriate punishment [destruction of the city and the temple]. This has to be taken as even more apt with respect to the consummation of the world, whose prefiguration was that tribulation [of the Jews]. Then will be a real tribulation, such as never has been. People will say: The earth may open up and swallow us.

(Sorry for my poor English!)

Following John Chrysostom, the tribulation of the Jews in A.D. 70 prefigures the spritual tribulation of the Church at the end of time. In this quote, he equals the consummation of the world with the tribulation.

In my eyes, his homilies on Mt 24 are the most helpful comment on Matthews little apocalypse, I could find so far. To me, they have been the best help to understand the time we witness.

Other than I thought and said before, there is a translation into English on amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0830829024/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0830829024&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


Offline Praeter

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No, I don't "privately interpret". That's not the case. Rather, I publicly state my opinion, I publicly state that I have come to the conclusion that the Robber Council is the abomination of desolation.
The Protestant doctrine of private interpretation of Scripture does not mean you keep your interpretation to yourself.  It means you interpret the Scriptures based on your own private judgement, and then use your private interpretation as the basis for your belief.  That is precisely what you are doing.   

Offline 2Vermont

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The Protestant doctrine of private interpretation of Scripture does not mean you keep your interpretation to yourself.  It means you interpret the Scriptures based on your own private judgement, and then use your private interpretation as the basis for your belief.  That is precisely what you are doing.  
Agreed.
"For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

Offline Struthio

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No, I don't "privately interpret". That's not the case. Rather, I publicly state my opinion, I publicly state that I have come to the conclusion that the Robber Council is the abomination of desolation.

The Protestant doctrine of private interpretation of Scripture does not mean you keep your interpretation to yourself.  It means you interpret the Scriptures based on your own private judgement, and then use your private interpretation as the basis for your belief.  That is precisely what you are doing.

Please pardon me for not being as well acquainted with Protestant doctrine as you are. As a Catholic I have dogma, the rule of faith, which enables me to recognise and to hold Catholic truth, in the midst of the darkness of so many errors:

Quote from: General Council of Trent: Twenty-Third Session
But It [the holy Synod] hath resolved to condemn whatsoever things are contrary thereunto, in express and specific canons, in the manner following; in order that all men, with the help of Christ, using the rule of faith, may, in the midst of the darkness of so many errors, more easily be able to recognise and to hold Catholic truth.

Using the rule of faith and my own upper storey, I can recognise a robber council as such. So, I can see that there was a most solemn revolt and that virtually all bishops are apostates or modernist heretics.

Then, reading scripture, like Catholics do, I use the comments of the fathers and doctors as well as authorized exegesis of the magisterium of the Church, to make sure I am on the right track.

It is St. John Chrysostom who says that the abominatio desolationis is the hosts of heretics of the Antichrist which will render (reddidit) the souls of many desolate. And I laugh out loud, when freshmen call me a protestant for daring to again use my own upper storey to connect the last two dots.

Same thing with the consummatio saeculi. I won't be bothered when you copy quotes of theologians and Popes, which just show that they have adopted Pastor aeternus, which teaches that there will be shepherds usque ad consummationem saeculi.

trad123 has posted the only quote so far, which addresses our question, at what time span or point in time the consummatio will happen. Up to when shepherds are promised by Our Lord. The only one, which contradicts my opinion. Augustine says usque ad finem saeculi et usque ad Domini iudicium (EPISTOLA 208, A. Feliciae virgini, choose elenchus = 208) As you can see, Augustine distinguishes between finis saeculi and iudicium Domini. Following Augustine, the finis saeculi obviously happens before the iudicium Domini. Also note that Pastor aeternus does not add a iudicium Domini to usque ad consummationem saeculi. So Augustine is opposed to my view, but if my view is correct, then he is not in accord with Pastor aeternus, either.

Then we have John Chrysostom, who equates the consummatio with the great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. (Mt 24,21) which is also annunciated by Daniel: a time shall come such as never was from the time that nations began even until that time. (Dan 12,1) (see my previous post for links)

The Church, as well as theologians worth that designation, well know that Daniel 12 is about the end of the world. The Douay-Rheims bible even has it in the title of the Chapter: Michael shall stand up for the people of God: with other things relating to Antichrist, and the end of the world. At the end of the world, when the scattering of the band of the holy people shall be accomplished, all these things shall be finished. (Dan 12,7) It is absurd to imagine, that a completely scattered band of the holy people is at the same time gathered by shepherds or even a Pope. Pastor aeternus does not only say that there will be shepherds usque ad consummationem saeculi, but also that they fulfill a purpose.


Conclusion: To defend your claim, that there will be shepherds even to the end of the great tribulation, you would have to furnish some sort of evidence other than your seemingly firm conviction.
It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


Offline trad123

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To show that I am not forming my opinions out of thin air, ignoring fathers and doctors of the church, here a quote of St. John Chrysostom. His Opus imperfectum can be found there:

http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/page12.html
http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/OpusImperfectum.pdf


Why is it that when I click the 2nd link, the PDF, it shows:

Pseudo-Chrysostomus



And why is it that I am reading this:

https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095611597

Quote
Quick Reference

Many sermons have been falsely ascribed to St John Chrysostom; of special interest are those by representatives of heretical movements from which little else survives: three paschal homilies which have been attributed to Apollinaris of Laodicea; two homilies for the octave of Easter which seem to be Anomoean; and the Opus Imperfectum in Matthaeum, a series of Latin homilies by an Arian bishop of the 5th or 6th century.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

Offline trad123

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trad123 has posted the only quote so far, which addresses our question, at what time span or point in time the consummatio will happen.

Why do you ignore every other quote that discusses the consummation? They're just as much against the narrative you're writing about here.

On top of that, you've created a narrative using a text that apparently was written by an Arian heretic, rather than by St. Chrysostom.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4

And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

Offline Struthio

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@trad123

"Pseudo-Chrysostomus", that's a crime committed by Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus, friend of Martin Luther, today celebrated as the "father of humanism".

He has been refuted at his own time already, as can be found in Migne.

There indeed have been copies of the text modified by Arians, but these were recognizable.

In modern times they even doubt most old and new testament authors.


Quote
As Thomas Aquinas was approaching Paris, a fellow traveler pointed out the lovely buildings gracing that city. Aquinas was impressed, to be sure, but he sighed and stated that he would rather have the complete Incomplete Commentary on Matthew than to be mayor of Paris itself. Thomas's affection for the work attests its great popularity  ...

Later more on this topic, if necessary.
It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


Offline Struthio

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Why do you ignore every other quote that discusses the consummation? They're just as much against the narrative you're writing about here.

Which one(s) do you deem pertinent to the debate?



On top of that, you've created a narrative using a text that apparently was written by an Arian heretic, rather than by St. Chrysostom.

No, it wasn't. See my previous post.
It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

Offline trad123

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The consummation refers to the end of the world, which will be it's cleansing by fire, and then follows the General Resurrection and the Last Judgement.

Go back and read all the quotes over again on page 3.


https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg663782/#msg663782



St. John Chrysostom

Homily 9 on First Thessalonians

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230409.htm


Quote
1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2

"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that anything be written unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night."

Nothing, as it seems, is so curious, and so fondly prone to pry into things obscure and concealed, as the nature of men. And this is wont to happen to it, when the mind is unsettled and in an imperfect state. For the simpler sort of children never cease teasing their nurses, and tutors, and parents, with their frequent questions, in which there is nothing else but "when will this be?" and "when that?" And this comes to pass also from living in indulgence, and having nothing to do. Many things therefore our mind is in haste to learn already and to comprehend, but especially concerning the period of the consummation; and what wonder if we are thus affected, for those holy men, themselves, were most of all affected in the same way? And before the Passion, the Apostles come and say to Christ, "Tell us, when shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the world?" Matthew 24:23 And after the Passion and the Resurrection from the dead, they said to Him, Tell us, "dost Thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" From Acts 1:6 And they asked Him nothing sooner than this.

(. . .)

For tell me, what would be the advantage? Let us suppose that the end would be after twenty or thirty or a hundred years, what is this to us? Is not the end of his own life the consummation to every individual? Why are you curious, and travailest about the general end? But the case is the same with us in this, as in other things. For as in other things, leaving our own private concerns, we are anxious about things in general, saying, Such an one is a fornicator, such an one an adulterer, that man has robbed, another has been injurious; but no one takes account of what is his own, but each thinks of anything rather than his own private concerns; so here also, each omitting to take thought about his own end, we are anxious to hear about the general dissolution. Now what concern is that of yours? For if you make your own a good end, you will suffer no harm from the other; be it far off, or be it near. This is nothing to us.

(. . .)

Hear Paul saying, "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night." Not the general day only, but that of every individual. For the one resembles the other, is also akin to it. For what the one does collectively, that the other does partially. For the period of consummation took its beginning from Adam, and then is the end of the consummation; since even now one would not err in calling it a consummation. For when ten thousand die every day, and all await That Day, and no one is raised before it, is it not the work of That Day?




St. John Chrysostom

Homily 20 on Matthew

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200120.htm


Quote
6.

(. . .)


But besides this, the delay itself is not long; nay, for those things are at the doors, and we know not but that even in our own generation all things which concern us may have their accomplishment, and that fearful day may arrive, setting before us the awful and incorruptible tribunal.


Yea, for the more part of the signs are fulfilled, and the gospel moreover has been preached in all parts of the world, and the predictions of wars, and of earthquakes, and of famines, have come to pass, and the interval is not great.But is it that thou dost not see any signs? Why, this self-same thing is a very great sign. For neither did they in Noah's time see any presages of that universal destruction, but in the midst of their playing, eating, marrying, doing all things to which they were used, even so they were overtaken by that fearful judgment.


And they too in Sodom in like manner, living in delight, and suspecting none of what befell them, were consumed by those lightnings, which then came down upon them.Considering then all these things, let us betake ourselves unto the preparation for our departure hence.

For even if the common day of the consummation never overtake us, the end of each one is at the doors, whether he be old or young; and it is not possible for men after they have gone hence, either to buy oil any more, or to obtain pardon by prayers, though he that entreats be Abraham, Luke 16:24 or Noah, or Job, or Daniel. Ezekiel 14:14While then we have opportunity, let us store up for ourselves beforehand much confidence, let us gather oil in abundance, let us remove all into Heaven, that in the fitting time, and when we most need them, we may enjoy all: by the grace and love towards man of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory, and the might, now and always, and forever and ever. Amen.




St. John Chrysostom

Homily 1 on the Acts of the Apostles

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210101.htm



Quote
What wonder then that He does not signify the day of the final consummation, when this day which was so near He did not choose to reveal? And with good reason; to the end they may be ever wakeful, and in a state of expectation and earnest heed.




St. John Chrysostom

Homily 45 on the Gospel of John

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240145.htm

Quote
John 6:40

(. . .)
"And I will raise him up at the last day." Why does He continually dwell upon the Resurrection? Is it that men may not judge of God's providence by present things alone; that if they enjoy not results here, they become not on that account desponding, but wait for the things that are to come, and that they may not, because their sins are not punished for the present, despise Him, but look for another life.

Now those men gained nothing, but let us take pains to gain by having the Resurrection continually sounded in our ears; and if we desire to be grasping, or to steal, or to do any wrong thing, let us straightway take into our thoughts that Day, let us picture to ourselves the Judgment-seat, for such reflections will check the evil impulse more strongly than any bit. Let us continually say to others, and to ourselves, "There is a resurrection, and a fearful tribunal awaits us."

(. . .)

Perhaps some one will say, When will be the consummation? When will be the Resurrection? See how" long a time has gone by, and nothing of the kind has come to pass?" Yet it shall be, be sure. For those before the flood spoke after this manner, and mocked at Noah, but the flood came and swept away all those unbelievers, but preserved him who believed. And the men of Lot's time expected not that stroke from God, until those lightnings and thunderbolts came down and destroyed them all utterly. Neither in the case of these men, nor of those who lived in the time of Noah, was there any preamble to what was about to happen, but when they were all living daintily, and drinking, and mad with wine, then came these intolerable calamities upon them. So also shall the Resurrection be; not with any preamble, but while we are in the midst of good times.

Wherefore Paul says, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."




St. John Chrysostom

Homily 20 on the Statues

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/190120.htm

Quote
23.
(. . .)

If you will thus school your own sons, they too will instruct their children in turn, and thus this discipline, reaching even to the consummation and appearing of Christ, will bring all that great reward to those who go to the root of the matter. If your son has learned to say, "Believe me;" he will not be able to go up to the theatre, or to enter a tavern, or to spend his time at dice; for that word, lying upon his mouth instead of a bridle, will make him however unwilling feel shame and blush. But if at any time he should appear in these places, it will quickly compel him to retreat.

Suppose some persons laugh. Do thou on the other hand weep for their transgression! Many also once laughed at Noah while he was preparing the ark; but when the flood came, he laughed at them; or rather, the just man never laughed at them at all, but wept and bewailed!

When therefore you see persons laughing, reflect that those teeth, that grin now, will one day have to sustain that most dreadful wailing and gnashing, and that they will remember this same laugh on That Day while they are grinding and gnashing! Then thou too shall remember this laugh! How did the rich man laugh at Lazarus! But afterwards, when he beheld him in Abraham's bosom, he had nothing left to do but to bewail himself



St. John Chrysostom

Homily 23 on First Corinthians

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/220123.htm

Quote
1 Corinthians 10:115.
"Now all these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."
Again he terrifies them speaking of the "ends," and prepares them to expect things greater than had already taken place. "For that we shall suffer punishment is manifest," says he, "from what has been said, even to those who disbelieve the statements concerning hell-fire; but that the punishment also will be most severe, is evident, from the more numerous blessings which we have enjoyed, and from the things of which those were but figures. Since, if in the gifts one go beyond the other, it is most evident that so it will be in the punishment likewise."
For this cause he both called them types, and said that they were "written for us" and made mention of an "end" that he might remind them of the consummation of all things. For not such will be the penalties then as to admit of a termination and be done away, but the punishment will be eternal; for even as the punishments in this world are ended with the present life, so those in the next continually remain. But when he said, "the ends of the ages," he means nothing else than that the fearful judgment is henceforth near at hand.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4

And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

Offline Struthio

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@trad123

I don't reject the idea that part of the consummation will be fire of destruction. Augustine says: the consummation (completion, perfection) of the good may include annihilation of evil.

I went through all of the quotes.

Please be so kind, to not only paste quotes, but to explain in which way you think that they show that the great tribulation cannot be part of the consummation.


Here your first one:

Quote
Many things therefore our mind is in haste to learn already and to comprehend, but especially concerning the period of the consummation;

Please explain, what the problem is!
It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


 

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