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Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 16868 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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  • Judas Bergolio

    Quote
    Sirach 12

    [10]
    Never trust thy enemy: for as a brass pot his wickedness rusteth:
    Non credas inimico tuo in aeternum : sicut enim aeramentum aeruginat nequitia illius :
    [11] Though he humble himself and go crouching, yet take good heed and beware of him.
    et si humiliatus vadat curvus, adjice animum tuum, et custodi te ab illo.
    [12] Set him not by thee, neither let him sit on thy right hand, lest he turn into thy place, and seek to take thy seat: and at the last thou acknowledge my words, and be pricked with my sayings.
    Non statuas illum penes te, nec sedeat ad dexteram tuam, ne forte conversus in locuм tuum, inquirat cathedram tuam, et in novissimo agnosces verba mea, et in sermonibus meis stimuleris.

    2 Thessalonians 2

    [3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
    Ne quis vos seducat ullo modo : quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum, et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis,
    [4] Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God.
    qui adversatur, et extollitur supra omne, quod dicitur Deus, aut quod colitur, ita ut in templo Dei sedeat ostendens se tamquam sit Deus.

    Quotations courtesy of drbo.org









    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Struthio

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    In his Commentaria in Ecclesiasticuм Blessed Rabanus Maurus Magnentius, Archbishop of Mainz and one of the most prominent teachers of the Carolingian age, called Praeceptor Germaniae, author of the hymn Veni Creator Spiritus, says that the false friends who "take thy seat" in Sirach 12:12 are to be understood as heretics, whose doctrine is full of errors and wickedness, crawling like a cancer (sideways). (mlat.uzh.ch (Patrologia Latina), Rabanus Maurus)

    The last Antichrist, "not the prince himself alone, but his whole body, that is, the mass of men who adhere to him, along with him their prince" may sit "as the temple of God", "as the Church of God as if he were the Church of God." (St. Augustine on 2 Thess 2, cf. Reply #106, Reply #188)

    The Antichrist and his body, "sitting in the temple", are also the "abomination of desolation standing in the holy place" (Mt 24:15), occupying seats in the Church, such "that the word of truth has stood, as it were, when it was not the word of truth, but the desolating abomination" (Opus Imperfectum in Matthaeum, homily XLIX, prophetic perfect tense), taking the seats of the successors of the apostles.


    The Vatican Council says that there will be a Pope and bishops "usque ad consummationem saeculi". It seems obvious what is to be expected during the consummation, during the tribulation, during the reign of Antichrist and his minions.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Quote
    By quoting Mt 28:20, until the consummation of the age, the Vatican Council redirects the readers to scripture and the exegesis of the Fathers. Anyone praying the Divine Office (at the time of the Vatican Council), read the exegesis of St. Jerome on Matthew 24:15-35 once a year on the last Sunday after Pentecost; Jerome equates the consummation of the age and the abomination of desolation and the reign of Antichrist.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg712898/#msg712898

    Very interesting. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    In his Commentaria in Ecclesiasticuм Blessed Rabanus Maurus Magnentius, Archbishop of Mainz and one of the most prominent teachers of the Carolingian age, called Praeceptor Germaniae, author of the hymn Veni Creator Spiritus, says that the false friends who "take thy seat" in Sirach 12:12 are to be understood as heretics, whose doctrine is full of errors and wickedness, crawling like a cancer (sideways). (mlat.uzh.ch (Patrologia Latina), Rabanus Maurus)

    "cancer" = crab in Latin.  I actually had to the correct the same mistake in a translation of Pope St. Leo the Great's sermons for the Catholic University of America's Fathers of the Church series.  So it makes sense about a crab scampering about the way they are wont to do.




    Offline Struthio

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    Thanks Lad, I wasn't aware that English speaking readers may not be aware of cancer = crab. 
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline Struthio

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    St. Cyprian of Carthage, speaks about sealed prophecy concerning the consummation of the age, in his Testimonia adversus Iudaeos:

    Quote
    Apud Esaiam: Et erunt vobis hi omnes sermones sicut sermones libri qui signatus est: quem si dederis homini scienti litteras ad legendum, dicet: Non possum legere, Signatus est enim. (0682B) Sed in illa die audient surdi sermones libri ; et qui in tenebris et qui in nebula sunt, oculi caecorum videbunt (Isa. XXIX, 11, 18) .

    Item apud Hieremiam: In novissimo dierum cognoscetis ea (Hier. XXIII, 20).

    Item apud Danielem: Muni sermones et signa librum usque ad tempus consummationis, quoad discant multi, et impleatur agnitio ; quoniam cuм fiet dispersio, cognoscent omnia haec (Dan. XII, 4, 7) .
    Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch


    St. Cyprian quotes Isaias (the following is from drbo.org, Vulgate):

    Quote from: Is 29
    [11] And the vision of all shall be unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which when they shall deliver to one that is learned, they shall say: Read this: and he shall answer: I cannot, for it is sealed.

    Et erit vobis visio omnium sicut verba libri signati, quem cuм dederint scienti litteras, dicent : Lege istum : et respondebit : Non possum, signatus est enim.

    [...]

    [18] And in that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book, and out of darkness and obscurity the eyes of the blind shall see.

    Et audient in die illa surdi verba libri, et de tenebris et caligine oculi caecorum videbunt.


    He sees the same in Jeremias:

    Quote from: Jer 23
    [20] The wrath of the Lord shall not return till he execute it, and till he accomplish the thought of his heart: in the latter days you shall understand his counsel.

    Non revertetur furor Domini, usque dum faciat et usque dum compleat cogitationem cordis sui : in novissimis diebus intelligetis consilium ejus.


    And the same in Daniel:

    Quote from: Dan 12
    [4] But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time appointed: many shall pass over, and knowledge shall be manifold.

    Tu autem Daniel, claude sermones, et signa librum usque ad tempus statutum : plurimi pertransibunt, et multiplex erit scientia.

    [10] [...] none of the wicked shall understand, but the learned shall understand.

    [...] neque intelligent omnes impii : porro docti intelligent.


    In the Vulgate, we have "in that day" (Isaias), "in the latter days" (Jeremias), "the time appointed" (Daniel).

    But St. Cyprian didn't have the Vulgate of Jerome. In the case of Daniel he quotes:

    Quote
    Muni sermones et signa librum usque ad tempus consummationis, quoad discant multi, et impleatur agnitio ; quoniam cuм fiet dispersio, cognoscent omnia haec (Dan. XII, 4, 7) .
    Quote
    Guard the words and seal the book until the time of the consummation, until then many may learn and knowledge may increase; whereas when the scattering will happen, they will understand all these things.

    St. Cyprian equates "in that day", "in the latter days", and "the time of the consummation". That's the time when the sheep are scattered and the prophecy will be fully understood (though not by the wicked).

    The Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until that same time, usque ad consummationem saeculi. Obviously, then, without shepherds, the scattering of the band of the holy people of Dan 12:7 will happen.

    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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    Quote from: Pius IX
    He decreed that that same sacrifice which He performed is to redeem the whole human race from the yoke of sin to reconcile all things in heaven and earth, and to remain until the consummation of the world.
    Amantissimi Redemptoris, papalencyclicals.net

    Given that Antichrist will come and change the very laws and the sacred rites as well (see quote below), this quote of Pius IX implies that the consummatio saeculi denotes that same time during which the received and approved rites of the Church will be replaced by other new ones, by the abomination of desolation; the same time during which the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, in the holy place.


    Quote from: St. Jerome, In Danielem
    "... And he shall crush the saints of the Most High, and will suppose himself to be able to alter times and laws." The Antichrist will wage war against the saints and will overcome them; and he shall exalt himself to such a height of arrogance as to attempt changing the very laws of God and the sacred rites as well. He will also lift himself up against all that is called God, subjecting all religion to his own authority.
    tertullian.org


    None can say that the Novus Ordo wasn't announced.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Not sure if St. Augustine uses the phrase "usque ad consummationem saeculi" in the following excerpt (it doesn't appear so in the English), but the quote is very relevant to the thread anyway:


    Quote
    By all means, I think these [prophetic developments] are better understood with regard to the Church, lest the Lord Jesus, with His second coming drawing near, seem to have foretold as being of great consequence [developments] that had been accustomed to happen to this world even before His first coming, and [lest] we be laughed at by those who have read in the history of nations more and much greater things than the ones at which we tremble as the final and most important of all. For the Church is the sun and the moon and the stars, to which it was said, “fair as the moon, bright as the sun” (Canticle of Canticles 6:9). In this world our Joseph [=son of Jacob and Rachel] is worshipped [=venerated] by the [moon], as though in Egypt [when he had been] lifted up on high from the lowliest [condition]. For the Joseph’s mother, who died before Jacob had come to his son, was certainly unable to worship him, in order that the truth of the prophetic dream (Genesis 37:9), to be fulfilled with Christ the Lord, might be preserved. For when “the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved,” just as this passage was recorded by the other two Evangelists (Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24), the Church will not be perceptible at that time, with the ungodly persecutors raging beyond measure and with all fear laid aside as though the world’s good fortune were smiling approvingly, while they say, “Peace and security” [1 Thessalonians 5:3]. Then the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved, because many who seemed to shine brightly with grace will yield to the persecutors and will fall, and some of the most valiant faithful will be confounded. However, for this reason, according to Matthew and Mark it is said that this will take place after the tribulation of those days, not because these things will happen after that entire persecution has been brought to an end, but because the tribulation will come before, in order that certain people’s defection [from the faith] may follow. And because it will come to pass in such a way through all those days, therefore after the tribulation of those days, but all the same it will nonetheless come to pass in the same days.

     
    (St. Augustine, Epistola CXCIX, par. 39; in Collectio Selecta Ss. Ecclesiae Patrum, vol. CXLVIII (Paris: Parent-Desbarres, 1835), pp. 127-128; underlining added. Professional translation commissioned by Novus Ordo Watch.)

    https://novusordowatch.org/2021/11/saint-augustine-church-will-not-appear-during-tribulation/


     
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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  • The cited Novus Ordo Watch article makes it clear that the above quote of St. Augustine is regarding Mt 24:29 - 

    “And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved” (Mt 24:29).
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Studying today, I saw a pretty clear echo of Matthew 28:20 in Jeremiah 30:11 -


    Quote
    Matthew 28:20

    [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

    docentes eos servare omnia quaecuмque mandavi vobis : et ecce ego vobiscuм sum omnibus diebus, usque ad consummationem saeculi.


    http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47028.htm

    Jeremiah 30:11

    [11] For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: for I will utterly consume all the nations, among which I have scattered thee: but I will not utterly consume thee: but I will chastise thee in judgment, that thou mayst not seem to thyself innocent.

    quoniam tecuм ego sum, ait Dominus, ut salvem te. Faciam enim consummationem in cunctis gentibus in quibus dispersi te : te autem non faciam in consummationem : sed castigabo te in judicio, ut non videaris tibi innoxius.


    http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/28030.htm

    Struthio has argued, based on Pastor Aeternus citing Matt. 28:20, that this is a reference Christ being present in shepherds and teachers until the "consummation" - I will not bother repeating the argument of this thread. 

    But there is a "consummation" and a "consummation" of the consummation: a period that is the consummation of this age, and then an end or consummation of that period.

    Christ is only present in shepherds and teachers until the beginning of this period, the first "consummation," and with His elect through the whole period (the ultimate "always"), until the very end of time - the second "consummation."

    For the two "consummations," see Daniel 9:27 (and Jeremiah 30:11 above) -


    Quote
    [27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.

    Confirmabit autem pactum multis hebdomada una : et in dimidio hebdomadis deficiet hostia et sacrificium : et erit in templo abominatio desolationis : et usque ad consummationem et finem perseverabit desolatio.


    http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/32009.htm

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Isaiah speaks clearly of what I have referred to as 2 consummations: the consummation of the age, and then the "consummation" or end of that period, which comes as an "abridgment of the period:


    Quote
    Isaiah 10:22-3

    22] For if thy people, O Israel, shall be as the sand of the sea, a remnant of them shall be converted, the consumption abridged shall overflow with justice.
    Si enim fuerit populus tuus, Israel, quasi arena maris, reliquiae convertentur ex eo; consummatio abbreviata inundabit justitiam.

    [23] For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, and an abridgment in the midst of all the land.
    Consummationem enim et abbreviationem Dominus Deus exercituum faciet in medio omnis terrae.
    http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27010.htm



    [22] And now do not mock, lest your bonds be tied strait. For I have heard of the Lord the God of hosts a consumption and a cutting short upon all the earth.
    Et nunc nolite illudere, ne forte constringantur vincula vestra; consummationem enim et abbreviationem audivi a Domino Deo exercituum, super universam terram.

    http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27028.htm

    The "abridgment" is spoken of by Our Lord, and a "cutting short" of the "consummation" for the salvation of the elect, supporting my reading:



    Quote
    Matthew 24:22

    [22] And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.

    Et nisi breviati fuissent dies illi, non fieret salva omnis caro : sed propter electos breviabuntur dies illi.


    http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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  • That "consummation" does not always mean the "end of time" is also clearly indicated by Hebrews 9:26 -


    Quote
    [26] For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.

    alioquin oportebat eum frequenter pati ab origine mundi : nunc autem semel in consummatione saeculorum, ad destitutionem peccati, per hostiam suam apparuit.


    http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/65009.htm

    That Christ appeared to sacrifice Himself at the "end of the ages" is stated in the verse, but the world didn't end then - fortunately for us. Obviously, this "consummation" is not the end of time. It is the end of an age, a "saeculorum."

    Christ's crucifixion signaled the end of the OT covenant age, and its consummation. But the Temple still stood, and the
    "consummation" of the OT age would linger on for about another 40 years, until the Temple was totally destroyed. You might say it lost its salvific power and grace when Christ died (the veil being torn), but again, it was not destroyed until later.


    Hebrews 8:13 makes this clear:


    Quote
    Hebrews 8:5-13

    [5] Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things. As it was answered to Moses, when he was to finish the tabernacle: See (saith he) that thou make all things according to the pattern which was shewn thee on the mount.
    qui exemplari, et umbrae deserviunt caelestium. Sicut responsum est Moysi, cuм consummaret tabernaculum : Vide ( inquit) omnia facito secundum exemplar, quod tibi ostensum est in monte.

    [6] But now he hath obtained a better ministry, by how much also he is a mediator of a better testament, which is established on better promises.
    Nunc autem melius sortitus est ministerium, quanto et melioris testamenti mediator est, quod in melioribus repromissionibus sancitum est.
    [7] For if that former had been faultless, there should not indeed a place have been sought for a second.
    Nam si illud prius culpa vacasset, non utique secundi locus inquireretur.
    [8] For finding fault with them, he saith: Behold, the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect unto the house of Israel, and unto the house of Juda, a new testament:
    Vituperans enim eos dicit : Ecce dies venient, dicit Dominus : et consummabo super domum Israel, et super domum Juda, testamentum novum,
    [9] Not according to the testament which I made to their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt: because they continued not in my testament: and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    non secundum testamentum quod feci patribus eorum in die qua apprehendi manum eorum ut educerem illos de terra Aegypti : quoniam ipsi non permanserunt in testamento meo : et ego neglexi eos, dicit Dominus.
    [10] For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind, and in their heart will I write them: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:
    Quia hoc est testamentum quod disponam domui Israel post dies illos, dicit Dominus : dando leges meas in mentem eorum, et in corde eorum superscribam eas : et ero eis in Deum, et ipsi erunt mihi in populum :
    [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least to the greatest of them:
    et non docebit unusquisque proximum suum, et unusquisque fratrem suum, dicens : Cognosce Dominum : quoniam omnes scient me a minore usque ad majorem eorum :
    [12] Because I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more.
    quia propitius ero iniquitatibus eorum, et peccatorum eorum jam non memorabor.
    [13] Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end.
    Dicendo autem novum : veteravit prius. Quod autem antiquatur, et senescit, prope interitum est.




    http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/65008.htm

    And apparently here we are now, in the "consummation" of the NT age, the juridical Church deprived of its pastors and the truth, it's saving grace, and we, like Old Israel, are "near [the] end."
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • The word links that are revealed in the Vulgate in Latin are mirrored in the Greek OT version, the Septuagint, used by the Apostles in their preaching the Gospel. 

    For example, the word "consummationem" in Latin has its counterpart in Greek as 

                 4930 completion συντϵλϵίας

     The number corresponds to the Strong numbering system used to index words in the Scriptures in Greek. 


    An absolutely incredible tool available for studying the Scriptures in their Greek translation (of great authority by virtue of its use by the Apostles and quotes therefrom in the NT) is at the website of the Apostolic Bible translation of the complete Greek Scriptures:

    http://www.apostolicbibleapp.com/

    For example, go the link and then go to Daniel 9:27. When you're there, click on the above word - look for the number 4930 in the verse, and in the side panel you will see all instances of the word in the Septuagint and the NT. So you will see the word used in Jer. 30:11, Matt. 28:20, Hebrews 9:26 etc. 

    The Greek word for "completion," Strong 4930, is a noun form derived from the verb form, 

         
               4931 completed συνϵτϵλέσθησαν


    That is the word that appears in Isaiah 10:23 (see above).

    An incredible resource for studying the Scriptures. I wish the same was available for the Vulgate. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • St. Thomas, Summa, Supplement Question 73:


    Quote
    Article 1. Whether any signs will precede the Lord's coming to judgment?

    Objection 1. It would seem that the Lord's coming to judgment will not be preceded by any signs. Because it is written (1 Thessalonians 5:3): "When they shall say: Peace and security; then shall sudden destruction come upon them." Now there would be no peace and security if men were terrified by previous signs. Therefore signs will not precede that coming.


    . . .

    Reply to Objection 1. According to Augustine (Ad Hesych., Ep. lxxx) towards the end of the world there will be a general persecution of the good by the wicked: so that at the same time some will fear, namely the good, and some will be secure, namely the wicked. The words: "When they shall say: Peace and security," refer to the wicked, who will pay little heed to the signs of the coming judgment: while the words of Luke 21:26, "men withering away," etc., should be referred to the good.

    We may also reply that all these signs that will happen about the time of the judgment are reckoned to occur within the time occupied by the judgment, so that the judgment day contains them all. Wherefore although men be terrified by the signs appearing about the judgment day, yet before those signs begin to appear the wicked will think themselves to be in peace and security, after the death of Antichrist and before the coming of Christ, seeing that the world is not at once destroyed, as they thought hitherto.


    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/5073.htm

    From Reply #93 in this thread:


    Quote
    Quote from: St Augustine, The City of God (Book XX)

    Quote
    That the last judgment, then, shall be administered by Jesus Christ in the manner predicted in the sacred writings is denied or doubted by no one, unless by those who, through some incredible animosity or blindness, decline to believe these writings, though already their truth is demonstrated to all the world. And at or in connection with that judgment the following events shall come to pass, as we have learned: Elias the Tishbite shall come; the Jєωs shall believe; Antichrist shall persecute; Christ shall judge; the dead shall rise; the good and the wicked shall be separated; the world shall be burned and renewed. All these things, we believe, shall come to pass; but how, or in what order, human understanding cannot perfectly teach us, but only the experience of the events themselves. My opinion, however, is, that they will happen in the order in which I have related them.

    From Reply #150 in this thread:


    Quote
    Commenting on the opening of the sixth seal Tyconius says:

    Quote from: see attachment
    Quote
    For it is not only in the last earthquake, when many [of the heavenly bodies = faithful] fall from heaven, that some will flee to the mountains, the mercy of the Lord. This always has happened from the passion of the Lord up until now. But at that time it will be greater, when the sign of the “falling away” will show that the day of the Lord is beginning.


    Tyconius sees the day of the Lord beginning with the “falling away”, i.e. the sign given by the Apostle in 2 Thess 2. Hence the day of the Lord begins with and includes the falling away, the revelation of the man of sin, the reign of Antichrist. Maybe that's how and why St. Augustine, too, says that the reign of Antichrist may be included in the events that shall come to pass at the final judgment (see Reply #93).



    Reply #155 in this thread:


    Quote
    Quote from: Jerome, Commentary in Isaiah 13:12
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    In consummatione mundi, quando orbis redactus fuerit in solitudinem, et obtenebratus sol in ortu suo, et luna splendorem suum non dederit, tanta fient ab Antichristo signa atque portenta, ut iniquitate crescente, refrigescat charitas multorum, ad decipiendos etiam si fieri potest electos Dei (Matth. XXIV).

    mlat.uzh.ch

    St. Jerome, commenting on Isaiah 13:12, says that during the consummation of the world the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's splendor, and Antichrist will present his signs and fictions, such that growing wickedness will make freeze the charity of many, to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

    St. Jerome clearly believes that the consummation of the world includes the time of the reign of Antichrist, as this quote shows and as his Commentary in Matthew shows (see Reply #137).

    Various Church Fathers say that the darkened sun and moon signify "Church in eclipse" (though not necessarily using these words). In his Commentary on Daniel, the wording of Jerome about the Antichrist predecessor Antiochus Epiphanes is "the religion of God suffered an eclipse".








    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • The Vatican Council uses the same phrase with regards to the consummation as Mt 28:20 does, yes, but that doesn't mean that Mt 28:20 is referring to "shepherds and teachers". Our Lord clearly says HE is with us all days, even usque ad consummationem saeculi. He does not mention the hierarchy at all, and "shepherds and teachers" =/= Christ. Pretending Mt 28:20 is about something which isn't referred to, stated, or implied at all is just ridiculous.

    Furthermore, while Christ says he's with us to(i.e until) the consummation, He also says he is with us all days. If the consummation was a period of time before the world ended, then it would be impossible for both statements to be true. If the set of all days includes the consummation, and Christ(or the hierarchy) is only with us until the consummation, then it would be logically impossible for Christ to be with us all days. Yet he says He is. Therefore the consummation cannot be referring to a period of time before the end of the world, but rather the moment in which the world ends. Even if we pretend that the verse is about "shepherds and teachers", despite the fact that there's nothing to point to that, it is still impossible for them to be with us "all days" and yet not be with us during the consummation if the consummation is a period of time, for if they are not with us during the days of the consummation then they are clearly not with us "all days".

    No matter how much you blatantly try to twist Scripture to fit your private interpretation, one thing you'll never be able to avoid is simple logic. Your interpretation of the consummation as a period of time makes Christ's promise self-contradictory, proving that you are interpreting it wrong.

    Forlorn,

    Struthio's long gone, but you're still around. I was rereading this, and make the following observation which I think supports Struthio's argument: Our Lord is speaking to the apostles, i.e. the hierarchy, the ecclesia docens, in Mt 28:20.


    Quote
    Matthew 28

    And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. [17] And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. [18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.


    The context supports Struthio's argument as to the Lord's ceasing to be with the shepherds and pastors at the 
    consummationem saeculi.

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.