Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi" (Read 16793 times)

Struthio · « **Reply #150 on:** July 17, 2020, 08:58:42 PM »

Tyconius was an African scholar, a few years older than St. Augustine of Hippo. He published at least four works, only one of which survived intact, the Book of Rules (Liber regularum).

Quote from: see attachment

In 380 Tyconius was excommunicated from the Donatists by Parmenianus at a council in Carthage. [...] Even so, we have no evidence that he sought communion with the Catholic church in Africa. His reluctance to join the Catholic fold confounded Augustine, who could not understand why a man who wrote with such force against the Donatists would not completely disassociate himself from them. These reservations aside, when Augustine was finishing his own work on biblical hermeneutics, On Christian Teaching (De doctrina christiana), he added a summary of Tyconius's Book of Rules, calling it “quite helpful in penetrating the obscure parts of the divine writings.”

Augustine's endorsement notwithstanding, Tyconius's Book of Rules was not his most significant contribution to the intellectual tradition of Latin Christianity. His commentary on the Apocalypse [In Apocalypsin] shaped the Latin reception and interpretation of the Apocalypse for the next eight hundred years. Gennadius [of Marseilles] wrote that Tyconius “expounded the entire Apocalypse, interpreting nothing in it in a carnal sense, but wholly in a spiritual sense.” Only Victorinus of Poetovio had commented on the Apocalypse in Latin before Tyconius, and his reading is thoroughly chiliastic, or, to use Gennadius's term, “carnal.” In Tyconius's “spiritual” exposition, the apocalyptic visions of John's Revelation were given immediate relevance for the present situation of the church. Latin commentators after Tyconius, most notably Primasius of Hadrumetum, Caesarius of Arles, the venerable Bede, and Beatus of Liébana, would follow his interpretation, citing him at length. Tyconius's Donatist identity was never forgotten, however. Primasius compared his use of Tyconius to picking precious gemstones out of manure. Bede softened the metaphor by describing Tyconius as a rose that blossomed among thorns.

Tyconius commentary on the Apocalypse was reconstructed by Roger Gryson from two fragments and citations of later commentators, published in 2011 in Latin and in French. For an English translation see the attachment.

Further info about Tyconius can be found in the introduction to the English translation of Gryson's reconstruction, and about his influence on Augustine e.g. in Paula Fredriksen's essay Apocalypse and Redemption in Early Christianity, From John of Patmos to Augustine of Hippo (most PDF viewers allow to rotate the text).

I don't agree with all details of Tyconius' commentary on the Apocalypse, but his approach overall is the most perspicuous, convincing, and systematic I have so far found.

The reason why I post this in this thread: Commenting on the opening of the sixth seal Tyconius says:

Quote from: see attachment

For it is not only in the last earthquake, when many [of the heavenly bodies = faithful] fall from heaven, that some will flee to the mountains, the mercy of the Lord. This always has happened from the passion of the Lord up until now. But at that time it will be greater, when the sign of the “falling away” will show that the day of the Lord is beginning.

Tyconius sees the day of the Lord beginning with the “falling away”, i.e. the sign given by the Apostle in 2 Thess 2. Hence the day of the Lord begins with and includes the falling away, the revelation of the man of sin, the reign of Antichrist. Maybe that's how and why St. Augustine, too, says that the reign of Antichrist may be included in the events that shall come to pass at the final judgment (see Reply #93).

DecemRationis · « **Reply #151 on:** July 18, 2020, 09:35:52 AM »

Quote from: Struthio on July 17, 2020, 08:58:42 PM

Tyconius was an African scholar, a few years older than St. Augustine of Hippo. He published at least four works, only one of which survived intact, the Book of Rules (Liber regularum).

Tyconius commentary on the Apocalypse was reconstructed by Roger Gryson from two fragments and citations of later commentators, published in 2011 in Latin and in French. For an English translation see the attachment.

Further info about Tyconius can be found in the introduction to the English translation of Gryson's reconstruction, and about his influence on Augustine e.g. in Paula Fredriksen's essay Apocalypse and Redemption in Early Christianity, From John of Patmos to Augustine of Hippo (most PDF viewers allow to rotate the text).

I don't agree with all details of Tyconius' commentary on the Apocalypse, but his approach overall is the most perspicuous, convincing, and systematic I have so far found.

The reason why I post this in this thread: Commenting on the opening of the sixth seal Tyconius says:

Tyconius sees the day of the Lord beginning with the “falling away”, i.e. the sign given by the Apostle in 2 Thess 2. Hence the day of the Lord begins with and includes the falling away, the revelation of the man of sin, the reign of Antichrist. Maybe that's how and why St. Augustine, too, says that the reign of Antichrist may be included in the events that shall come to pass at the final judgment (see Reply #93).

Thanks. Great catch.

Which a quick perusal after looking at the Scripture Index led me to this comment on another relevant passage of the Apocalypse of John, 20:7, which talks about Satan being loosed after the one thousand years when he's bound. Then Satan goes out and surrounds the camp of the saints, etc. The thousand years seems to me to be the period of the preaching of the Gospel throughout the world, the period of the sealing of the servants of God, and then there is a period of persecution following (amend - rather during) the "end of the age."

Tyconius's comment on 20:7 attached.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #152 on:** July 18, 2020, 09:39:03 AM »

And here's Tychonius on the related passage of Apoc. 20:3. Again, consistent.

Struthio · « **Reply #153 on:** July 18, 2020, 03:53:13 PM »

Following Tyconius, the whole of humanity is divided into three groups:

- good, inside: right side of the body of Christ
- evil, inside: left side of the body of Christ (false brothers within the Church) = abomination of desolation = mystery of iniquity = son of perdition
- evil, outside: body of the devil

The “great falling away” (2 Thess 2:3) will reveal the son of perdition, reveal the false brothers within the Church as such:

Quote from: Tyconius, page 92

He called the heathen a third part handed over to fire. Also there is another [third, consisting] of false brothers, who are mixed with the good. The [last] third is the church, which struggles against a twofold evil. This is as when God promised through Zechariah to strike the shepherds and those attached to them throughout the whole world, to scatter the sheep, and to free one but destroy two of the three parts: “Sword,” he says, “arise upon the shepherds and upon the man, my subject, says the Lord almighty. Strike the shepherds and scatter the sheep. And I shall bring my hand upon the shepherds. And it will come about in all the earth, says the Lord, that two parts will be cut off and will perish, and a third part will be left in it. And I shall bring the third part through the fire and refine them as silver is refined. And I shall test them as gold is tested. He will call upon my name, and I shall give heed to him. And I shall say, `You are my people,' and they will say, `Lord, you are my God.'” [Zec 13:7-9] Before the “falling away” [2 Thes 2:3] happens, everyone is considered the people of God. When the “falling away” will have happened, then the third part of the people of God will appear. [22]

[Footnote 22]
Tyconius's comment here provides a clear statement on anthropology, ecclesiology, and eschatology. Humanity comprises three parts. Two parts are in the church, which is bipartite, and a third is outside the church. Two evil parts will be destroyed in the Last Judgment, the worldly part and the left part of the bipartite church; however, at the present time, both parts of the bipartite church are considered “the people of God.” Only in the discessio will God's true people, the right part of the Lord's body, be revealed (cf. Lib. reg. 1.13; 3.29; 4.20.3; 6.4; 7.4, 14).

The view of Tyconius backs the idea that there will be shepherds up to the great apostasy (2 Thess 2:3).

Struthio · « **Reply #154 on:** July 18, 2020, 04:01:54 PM »

Commenting on the two witnesses in Rev 11, Tyconius says:

Quote from: Tyconius, page 112

[7] And when they will finish their testimony, the beast that is rising from the abyss will make war with them. He clearly shows that all these things happen before the last persecution when he says: When they will have finished their testimony. Certainly that to which they testify, they testify to up to the time of the revelation of the beast.

The two witnesses are the Church, says Tyconius earlier, and the Church testifies up to the time of the revelation of the beast, which is the revelation of the false brothers within the Church, i.e. the son of perdition.

Struthio · « **Reply #155 on:** July 29, 2020, 07:59:10 PM »

Quote from: Jerome, Commentary in Isaiah 13:12

In consummatione mundi, quando orbis redactus fuerit in solitudinem, et obtenebratus sol in ortu suo, et luna splendorem suum non dederit, tanta fient ab Antichristo signa atque portenta, ut iniquitate crescente, refrigescat charitas multorum, ad decipiendos etiam si fieri potest electos Dei (Matth. XXIV).

mlat.uzh.ch

St. Jerome, commenting on Isaiah 13:12, says that during the consummation of the world the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's splendor, and Antichrist will present his signs and fictions, such that growing wickedness will make freeze the charity of many, to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

St. Jerome clearly believes that the consummation of the world includes the time of the reign of Antichrist, as this quote shows and as his Commentary in Matthew shows (see Reply #137).

Various Church Fathers say that the darkened sun and moon signify "Church in eclipse" (though not necessarily using these words). In his Commentary on Daniel, the wording of Jerome about the Antichrist predecessor Antiochus Epiphanes is "the religion of God suffered an eclipse".

Clemens Maria · « **Reply #156 on:** July 29, 2020, 08:25:32 PM »

An eclipse is an excellent description of what is happening. XavierSem would have us believe that the Church can eclipse itself or that there is no eclipse at all. But many traditional Catholic commentators have used the eclipse analogy. And that is what it is. The unholy Conciliar church has eclipsed the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church still exists and there are still Catholics who profess the same faith as the saints but it is hidden as it were behind the Conciliar church which has claimed the title of the Catholic Church and stolen all her properties.

Struthio · « **Reply #157 on:** July 29, 2020, 08:58:16 PM »

Quote from: Clemens Maria on July 29, 2020, 08:25:32 PM

An eclipse is an excellent description of what is happening. XavierSem would have us believe that the Church can eclipse itself or that there is no eclipse at all. But many traditional Catholic commentators have used the eclipse analogy. And that is what it is. The unholy Conciliar church has eclipsed the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church still exists and there are still Catholics who profess the same faith as the saints but it is hidden as it were behind the Conciliar church which has claimed the title of the Catholic Church and stolen all her properties.

Beside the felicitous metapher of an eclipse, there are also excellent literal descriptions of what we see today:

St. John Chrysostom explains that in the consummation of the Jєωιѕн race Jerusalem was destroyed, and what actually wasn't Jerusalem anymore, was still perceived to be Jerusalem. Analogously in the consummation of the world: The Church will be desolate, and what still will be perceived to be the Church will not be the real thing. (see Reply #56)

St. Augustine reports of some who say that the Son of perdition will (to render the Greek more exactly) not sit "in the temple of God," but "as the temple of God," as if he himself were the temple of God, the Church. (see Reply #106)

Struthio · « **Reply #158 on:** July 29, 2020, 09:09:43 PM »

I found one more quote elsewhere on CI, which is pertinent to this topic:

Quote from: DecemRationis on July 29, 2020, 08:43:05 PM

Quote from: John 9:4-5
I must work the works of him that sent me, whilst it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Using Tyconius' rule #1, this primarily applies to the Church.

Struthio · « **Reply #159 on:** July 30, 2020, 01:38:44 PM »

In Reply #109, DecemRationis used Isaiah 10 and 28 to show that the consummation of the age corresponds to the time of tribulation, which will be shortened or abridged. This is confirmed by Rabanus Maurus, 9th century Abbot of the Princely Abbey of Fulda and Archbishop of Mainz, commenting on Ecclesiasticus:

Quote from: Rabanus Maurus, Commentaria in Ecclesiasticuм

« In tempore consummationis effundent virtutem, et furorem eius qui fecit illos placabunt. (1046C) » Tunc enim secundum Evangelicam attestationem, erunt dies illi tribulationes tales, quales non fuerunt ab initio creaturae quam condidit Deus usque nunc, neque fient: « Et nisi breviasset Dominus dies, non fuisset salva omnis caro: sed propter electos, quos elegit, breviabit dies. »

Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch

Quote from: translation

"In the time of consummation they shall pour out their force: and they shall appease the wrath of him that made them." [Sir 39:34] At that time, the Gospel attests, shall be those days of such tribulations, as were not from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, neither shall be. [Mk 13:19] "And unless the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect which he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." [Mk 13:20]

DecemRationis · « **Reply #160 on:** July 30, 2020, 02:56:33 PM »

Quote from: Struthio on July 29, 2020, 07:59:10 PM

mlat.uzh.ch

St. Jerome, commenting on Isaiah 13:12, says that during the consummation of the world the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's splendor, and Antichrist will present his signs and fictions, such that growing wickedness will make freeze the charity of many, to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

St. Jerome clearly believes that the consummation of the world includes the time of the reign of Antichrist, as this quote shows and as his Commentary in Matthew shows (see Reply #137).

Various Church Fathers say that the darkened sun and moon signify "Church in eclipse" (though not necessarily using these words). In his Commentary on Daniel, the wording of Jerome about the Antichrist predecessor Antiochus Epiphanes is "the religion of God suffered an eclipse".

There is a lot of truth in this thread, off the beaten path, there for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Those who are too few, unfortunately.

Thank you for the commentary of Jerome, saint and doctor of the Church. He, with St. Augustine, give some weighty support to your thesis, which makes so much sense on many levels.

Things started going haywire from the late fourteenth and 15th century or so on, slowly at first, the influx of paganism and esoteric hermeticism during the Renaissance, the relaxation of disciplinary laws regarding usury, the speculations regarding the salvation vel non of those in the New World who had not heard the Gospel, and then the Reformation and the revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries. Also significant is the Church's (and heaven's) response to this: the first Vatican Council, the apparitions at Lourdes, La Salette, Fatima. As to the first things mentioned in this chain, Michael Hoffman has done some very informative and eye-opening work on usury and the influence of hermeticism in the hierarchy of the Church.

You noted the theologians and their "interpretation" of the universal, ordinary Magisterium in another thread. The theologians of the 19th and 20th centuries have skewed things and messed things up so bad that they made the soil fertile for Vatican II and an outright revolution in the Church, an open revolt in the Church itself.

Where the "consummation" actually begins becomes difficult to define. We may differ on that. But what is clear is when the doors came off, and the final stage of the Antichrist(s) went into effect: the Conciliar Church of Vatican II.

Again, thank you for the scholarship and digging into the fathers and the original, early sources. Looking through the eyes of the theologians post-Trent can be a very dangerous affair, and quite hazardous to one's soul I'm afraid.

DR

Struthio · « **Reply #161 on:** July 30, 2020, 03:56:15 PM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on July 30, 2020, 02:56:33 PM

Things started going haywire from the late fourteenth and 15th century or so on, slowly at first, the influx of paganism and esoteric hermeticism during the Renaissance, the relaxation of disciplinary laws regarding usury, the speculations regarding the salvation vel non of those in the New World who had not heard the Gospel, and then the Reformation and the revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries. Also significant is the Church's (and heaven's) response to this: the first Vatican Council, the apparitions at Lourdes, La Salette, Fatima. As to the first things mentioned in this chain, Michael Hoffman has done some very informative and eye-opening work on usury and the influence of hermeticism in the hierarchy of the Church.

The message of Tyconius is: Things started going haywire right from the beginning. The Church was bipartite ever since, including false brothers, who do the work of the body of the devil. It's been "the last hour" when St. John said so. "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour." The mystery of iniquity already was at work when the Apostle said so.

At the 1960s robber council, the cockle had their "great coming out".

What was it what the Apostel called "what withholdeth"? I think, it must have been the Faith. Out Lord took it out of the way of Antichrist, by sending the operation of error that they believe lying.

Struthio · « **Reply #162 on:** August 01, 2020, 09:56:17 AM »

Quote from: Zacharias 11, drbo.org

[15] And the Lord said to me: Take to thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. [16] For behold I will raise up a shepherd in the land, who shall not visit what is forsaken, nor seek what is scattered, nor heal what is broken, nor nourish that which standeth, and he shall eat the flesh of the fat ones, and break their hoofs.

In one more place, St. Jerome of Stridon, one of the four Great Latin Church Fathers, identifies the foolish shepherd announced by Zacharias as the Antichrist who is said to come in the consummation of the world:

Quote from: Hieronymus Stridonensis, Commentaria in Zachariam

Pastor stultus, et imperitus, haud dubium quin Antichristus sit; qui in consummatione mundi dicitur esse venturus, et qualis venturus sit, indicatur.

Quote from: translation

The foolish and unversed shepherd, without a doubt is Antichrist who is said to come in the consummation of the world. And the kind of his coming is indicated.

Quote from: Rupertus Tuitiensis, Commentaria in duodecim prophetas minores

Pastor stultus et imperitus Antichristus est, qui in consummatione saeculi dicitur esse venturus.

Quote from: Haymo Halberstatensis, Enarratio in duodecim prophetas minores

Pastor stultus et imperitus Antichristus est, qui in consummatione saeculi dicitur esse venturus.

Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch

Struthio · « **Reply #163 on:** August 07, 2020, 09:45:26 AM »

In his commentary on Daniel, St. Jerome says that the consummation will be executed by Antichrist, will take place in Antichrist. The will of Antichrist will be directed by God, until the wrath of God is fulfilled, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Quote from: St. Jerome in Danielem 11:36

Sive ut alius interpretatus est; "in ipso enim erit consummatio". Ab hoc loco Iudaei dici de Antichristo putant, quod post Iuliani parvum auxilium surrecturus sit rex qui faciat iuxta voluntatem suam, et elevetur contra omne quod dicitur deus, et adversum Deum deorum loquatur magnifica: ita ut sedeat in templo Dei, et seipsum faciat Deum, et dirigatur voluntas eius, donec compleatur ira Dei, quia in ipso erit consummatio. Quod quidem et nos de Antichristo intelligimus. Porphyrius autem et caeteri qui sequuntur eum, de Antiocho Epiphane dici arbitrantur [...]

Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch

Quote from: St. Jerome in Danielem 11:36, translated by Gleason L. Archer

Or else, as another has translated it: "for in him shall be the consummation." The Jєωs believe that this passage has reference to the Antichrist, alleging that after the small help of Julian a king is going to rise up who shall do according to his own will and shall lift himself up against all that is called god, and shall speak arrogant words against the God of gods. He shall act in such a way as to sit in the Temple of God and shall make himself out to be God, and his will shall be prospered [dirigatur: guided, directed] until the wrath of God is fulfilled, for in him the consummation will take place. We too understand this to refer to the Antichrist. But Porphyry and the others who follow his lead suppose the reference to be to Antiochus Epiphanes [...]

tertullian.org

See also:

Quote from: Rev 17, drbo.org

[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest in the beast: these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her with fire.

Et decem cornua, quae vidisti in bestia : hi odient fornicariam, et desolatam facient illam, et nudam, et carnes ejus manducabunt, et ipsam igni concremabunt.

[17] For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Deus enim dedit in corda eorum ut faciant quod placitum est illi : ut dent regnum suum bestiae donec consummentur verba Dei.

Struthio · « **Reply #164 on:** August 10, 2020, 07:22:05 AM »

Anselm of Laon, dean and chancelor of the cathedral as well as archdeacon of Laon in northern France, lived around 1100. He was a theologian and founder of a school of scholars, whose greatest work is the Glossa ordinaria, an interlinear and marginal gloss. The Patrologia Latina has more than 60 of his comments on books of the Old and the New Testaments.

On the book of Judith, Anselm comments:

Quote from: Anselmus Laudunensis et schola Glossa ordina, Liber Iudith, CAPUT II.

VERS. 17. - « Descendit in campos. » Damascus potus sanguinis interpretatur, in qua principes gentium exprimuntur, who thirst for the blood of the faithful: qui sitiunt sanguinem fidelium: maxime in tempore messis, id est, in consummatione saeculi debacchante per latitudinem orbis furore Antichristi.

Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch

Quote from: translation

VERSE 17. - "went down into the plains." Damascus is understood to be a drinking of blood, in which the princes of the Gentiles are pictured, who thirst for the blood of the faithful: above all in the time of the harvest, that is, in the consummation of the age when the madness of Antichrist is raging all over the world.

In Isaiah 34 the great apostasy is pictured as "all the host of the heavens falling down as the leaf falleth from the vine, and from the fig tree", and Antichrist as the "inebriated sword" coming down "upon the people of my slaughter unto judgment." The flock is not gathered and nourished but rather slaughtered and devoured. Similarly in Zacharias 11:16, Antichrist is a shepherd who slaughters and devours his fat flock (see Reply #162).

In the book of Judith 2:17, Antichrist is depicted not as a mad cattle-breeder, but as a mad wheat farmer and orchard- and winegrower:

Quote from: Judith 2, drbo.org

[17] And after these things he went down into the plains of Damascus in the days of the harvest, and he set all the corn on fire, and he caused all the trees and vineyards to be cut down.

Following Anselm of Laon, at the time of the harvest, which is the consummation of the age (Mt 13:39), Antichrist will be allowed to rage and, thirsting for the blood of the faithful, destroy (most of) the harvest of Our Lord.

Again, the consummation of the age includes the reign of Antichrist before the second coming of Our Lord.

Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi" (Read 16793 times)

Struthio

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