Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 5187 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Elsewhere on Cathinfo, DecemRationis kindly has referenced the encyclical Etsi multa where Pope Pius IX compares the "Old Catholics" to the Donatists, and quotes a short passage of St Augustine's Enarrationes in Psalmos.

Both the Donatists and the "Old Catholics" said or implied that the Church essentially had fallen in apostasy and perished, leaving themselves as a comparatively small remnant.

In his Exposition on Psalm 101(102) St. Augustine refutes the Donatists based on the following quotes:

Ps 101,24 Declare unto me the fewness of my days

Ps 101,25 Call me not away in the midst of my days

Mt 28,30: behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the age.

Mt 24,14: And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come.

St. Augustine basically says that the Lord's own answer to Declare unto me the fewness of my days is behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the age. Since furthermore the consummation does not come before the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to all nations, and there still are nations among whom the Gospel has not been preached, the Church cannot have fallen into apostasy and have perished (yet).

Hence, Augustine implicity allows for a possible great apostasy when the consummation of the age comes. This squares with

a) Augustine's assertion that the day of judgment may not be literally a day but a span of time including the reign of Antichrist (see Reply #93)

b) Augustine's comment on 2 Thess 2,3, where he identifies the great apostasy and Antichrist. (more on this later)



Quote from: St Augustine
Mota vocibus vestris et falsis opinionibus vestris, quaerit a Deo ut exiguitatem dierum suorum annuntiet sibi, et invenit Dominum dixisse: Ecce ego vobiscum sum usque in consummationem saeculi. [Mt 18,20] Hic vos dicitis: De nobis dixit; nos sumus, nos erimus usque in consummationem saeculi. Interrogetur ipse Christus, cui dictum est: Exiguitatem dierum meorum annuntia mihi. Et praedicabitur, inquit, hoc Evangelium in universo orbe, in testimonium omnibus gentibus; et tunc veniet finis [Mt 24,14]. Quid est quod dicebas: Hoc certe fuit et periit? Dominum audi annuntiantem exiguitatem dierum meorum. Praedicabitur, inquit, hoc Evangelium. Ubi? In toto orbe terrarum. Quibus? In testimonium omnibus gentibus. Quid postea? Et tunc veniet finis. Non vides adhuc esse gentes in quibus nondum est praedicatum Evangelium? Cum ergo necesse sit impleri quod Dominus dixit, exiguitatem dierum meorum annuntians Ecclesiae, ut praedicetur hoc Evangelium in omnibus gentibus, et tunc veniat finis; quid est quod dicis iam perisse Ecclesiam de omnibus gentibus, quando ad hoc praedicatur Evangelium, ut possit esse in omnibus gentibus? Ergo usque in finem saeculi Ecclesia in omnibus gentibus;
[...]
Non ergo blandiantur sibi contra me haeretici, quia dixi: Exiguitatem dierum meorum, quasi non permansuram usque in finem saeculi. Quid enim addidit? Ne revoces me in dimidium dierum meorum. Noli, quomodo haeretici loquuntur, sic mecum agere. Usque in finem saeculi me perduc, non in dimidium dierum meorum;

Quote from: translation
Moved by your [the Donatists] voices and your false opinions, she [the Church] asks God to let her know the fewness of her days and discovers that the Lord has said: Behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the age [Mt 28,20]. Here you say: He has said it of us; we exist, we will exist until the consummation of the age. Let's interrogate Christ himself, whom she asked: Let me know the fewness of my days. And this gospel of the kingdom, says he, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. [Mt 24,14]. What did you say: The Church surely once was and has perished? Listen to the Lord who makes me know the fewness of my days. This Gospel, says he, will be preached. Where? In the whole world. Why? For a testimony to all nations. And then? Then shall the consummation come.
Do you see not that there are still nations among whom the Gospel has not been preached? Since then it is needful that what the Lord spoke shall be fulfilled, declaring unto the Church the fewness of my days, that this Gospel be preached in all nations, and then that the consummation may come, why is it that you say that the Church has already perished from among all nations, when the Gospel is being preached for this purpose, that it may be in all nations? Therefore the Church remains unto the consummation of the world, in all nations;
[...]
Let not therefore heretics flatter themselves against me, because I said, the fewness of my days, as if they would not last down to the end of the world. For what has he added? O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days Psalm 101:24. Deal Thou not with me according as heretics speak. Lead me on unto the end of the world, not only to the middle of my days;



The quoted Latin text can be found on augustinus.it (on the left side of the page choose Elencus 101 II and press Lege)

The only English translation I could find is available on newadvent.org Exposition on Psalm 102 or identical also on documentacatholicaomnia.eu Enarrationes in Psalmos. Since this translation is not complete, part of the translation above is mine, based on the Latin and an Italian translation found on augustinus.it.

Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

Offline Struthio

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Hence, Augustine implicity allows for a possible great apostasy when the consummation of the age comes.

In De Civitate Dei, Liber XX, Caput XIX, St. Augustine comments on 2 Thess 2., the manifestation of Antichrist and the return of Our Lord.

Quote from: 2 Thess 2, Vulgate, Jerome/drbo.org
[3] Ne quis vos seducat ullo modo : quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum, et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

First, before the return of our Lord, comes an apostasy (or revolt, Greek: ápostasía, Latin: discessio), and the man of sin, the son of perdition is revealed.

Augustine uses a slightly different Latin text:

Quote from: De Civitate Dei, book 20, chapter 19
[3] ne quis vos seducat ullo modo; quoniam nisi venerit refuga primum et revelatus fuerit homo peccati, filius interitus

[3] let no man deceive you by any means; for unless there come the runaway first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of doom

Based upon this rendering of the original Greek, the apostasy is personified. Augustine identifies it with the son of perdition or Antichrist:

Quote from: De Civitate Dei, book 20, chapter 19
No one can doubt that he wrote this of Antichrist and of the day of judgment, which he here calls the day of the Lord, nor that he declared that this day should not come unless he first came who is called the apostate

Antichrist is called the apostate. Futhermore Antichrist may not signify the head of the hosts of heretics (Chrys., Op. Imp.) alone,

Quote from: De Civitate Dei, book 20, chapter 19
And on this account some think that in this passage Antichrist means not the prince himself alone, but his whole body, that is, the mass of men who adhere to him, along with him their prince;

but the whole hosts of heretics. Moreover, these whole hosts of heretics may not "sit in the temple of God" but "as the temple of God".

Quote from: De Civitate Dei, book 20, chapter 19
and they also think that we should render the Greek more exactly were we to read, not "in the temple of God," but "for" or "as the temple of God," as if he himself were the temple of God, the Church.

It is my opinion, that Augustine here predicts the impostor Conciliar Sect sitting as if she were the temple of God, as if she were the Church.


Whether that's true or not, given that in his Enarrationes in Psalmos Augustine allows for a major apostasy not before the consummation of the age comes, and given that here he predicts that major apostasy, one can't help concluding that the consummation of the age begins with the revelation of Antichrist.

Meanwhile the Vatican Council teaches: There will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi".


De Civitate Dei, Liber XX, Caput XIX
The City of God (Book XX)
Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


Offline Struthio

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Three evangelists report about the disciples' question asked on the Mount of Olives: When should the consummation happen?

St. Augustine says that these passages are exact parallels and must not be read in antagonism with each other:

Quote from: St Augustine, The Harmony of the Gospels, Book II
Chapter 77. Of the Harmony Subsisting Between the Three Evangelists in Their Narratives of the Discourse Which He Delivered on the Mount of Olives, When the Disciples Asked When the Consummation Should Happen.

147. [...] We have now, therefore, to examine this lengthened discourse as it meets us in the three evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. For they all introduce it in their narratives, and that, too, in the same order. Here, as elsewhere, each of these writers gives some matters which are peculiar to himself, in which, nevertheless, we have not to apprehend any suspicion of inconsistency. But what we have to make sure of is the proof that, in those passages which are exact parallels, they are nowhere to be regarded as in antagonism with each other. For if anything bearing the appearance of a contradiction meets us here, the simple affirmation that it is something wholly distinct, and uttered by the Lord in similar terms indeed, but on a totally different occasion, cannot be deemed a legitimate mode of explanation in a case like this, where the narrative, as given by all the three evangelists, moves in the same connection at once of subjects and of dates.

With respect to the question concerning the final consummation one finds

Mt: Quod signum consummationis saeculi?
Mc: Quod signum erit, quando haec omnia incipient consummari?
Lk: Quod signum cum fieri incipient?

Mt: What shall be the sign of the consummation of the age?
Mc: What shall be the sign when all this begins to be consummated/fulfilled?
Lk: What shall be the sign when all this begins to come to pass?

Luke 13:3 relates that Our Lord was asked by Peter, James, John, and Andrew. Following the instructions given by Augustine, we can assert that the consummation of the age corresponds to the fulfillment of all this, i.e. a series of announced events coming to pass. The question ask for the sign signalling the beginning of the events constituting the consummation.

When do the announced events begin to come to pass?

Quote from: St Augustine, The Harmony of the Gospels, Book II, Chapter 77
148. Again, what Matthew states in this form, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the consummation come," is given also in the same connection by Mark in the following manner: "And the gospel must first be published among all nations." Mark has not added the words, "and then shall the consummation come;" but he indicates what they express, when he uses the phrase "first" in the sentence, "And the gospel must first be published among all nations." For they had asked Him about the end. And therefore, when He addresses them thus, "The gospel must first be published among all nations," the term "first" clearly suggests the idea of something to be done before the consummation should come.

The announced events coming to pass during the consummation are those events mentioned by our Lord after he says et tunc veniet consummatio (Mt 24:14, and then shall the consummation come). The consummation begins, when we see the abomination of desolation in the holy place (Mt 24:15), after the gospel has been preached among all nations (Mt 24:14).

Luke summarizes what this consummation is about: For these are the days of vengeance, that all things may be fulfilled, that are written. (Lk 21:22)


Conclusion: The consummation of the age is not a point in time or a literal day, but rather a span of time, the time of great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be (Mt 24:21) as announced in (Dan 12:1), a span of time during which false prophet's try to deceive (if possible) even the elect (Mt 24:24).


References:

The Harmony of the Gospels, Book II, Chapter 77
De Consensu Evangelistarum, Libri Quatour, Liber Secundus
drbo.org
Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

Offline Struthio

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Quote from: Hippolytus, On the End of the World
For I shall unfold to you today a narration full of horror and fear, to wit, the account of the consummation, and in particular, of the seduction of the whole world by the enemy and devil; and after these things, the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
newadvent.org/fathers

One more Church Father presenting the consummation of the age as a time span including the seduction by Antichrist into the same.


Hippolytus synonymously uses the day of the consummation, the times of the consummation, the time of the consummation, the last day of the consummation:

Quote from: Hippolytus, On the End of the World
Wherefore also in the last day of the consummation, it must needs be that false Christs will arise again


Hippolytus begins his account of the consummation with two prophets, after Isaiah he quotes Osea:

Quote from: Hippolytus, On the End of the World
Wherefore let us direct our discourse to a second witness. And of what sort is this one? Listen to Osea, as he speaks thus grandly: "In those days the Lord shall bring on a burning wind from the desert against them, and shall make their veins dry, and shall make their springs desolate; and all their goodly vessels shall be spoiled. Because they rose up against God, they shall fall by the sword, and their women with child shall be ripped up." Hosea 13:15 And what else is this burning wind from the east, than the Antichrist that is to destroy and dry up the veins of the waters and the fruits of the trees in his times, because men set their hearts on his works? For which reason he shall indeed destroy them, and they shall serve him in his pollution.
Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

Offline DecemRationis

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Three evangelists report about the disciples' question asked on the Mount of Olives: When should the consummation happen?

St. Augustine says that these passages are exact parallels and must not be read in antagonism with each other:

With respect to the question concerning the final consummation one finds

Mt: Quod signum consummationis saeculi?
Mc: Quod signum erit, quando haec omnia incipient consummari?
Lk: Quod signum cum fieri incipient?

Mt: What shall be the sign of the consummation of the age?
Mc: What shall be the sign when all this begins to be consummated/fulfilled?
Lk: What shall be the sign when all this begins to come to pass?

Luke 13:3 relates that Our Lord was asked by Peter, James, John, and Andrew. Following the instructions given by Augustine, we can assert that the consummation of the age corresponds to the fulfillment of all this, i.e. a series of announced events coming to pass. The question ask for the sign signalling the beginning of the events constituting the consummation.

When do the announced events begin to come to pass?

The announced events coming to pass during the consummation are those events mentioned by our Lord after he says et tunc veniet consummatio (Mt 24:14, and then shall the consummation come). The consummation begins, when we see the abomination of desolation in the holy place (Mt 24:15), after the gospel has been preached among all nations (Mt 24:14).

Luke summarizes what this consummation is about: For these are the days of vengeance, that all things may be fulfilled, that are written. (Lk 21:22)


Conclusion: The consummation of the age is not a point in time or a literal day, but rather a span of time, the time of great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be (Mt 24:21) as announced in (Dan 12:1), a span of time during which false prophet's try to deceive (if possible) even the elect (Mt 24:24).


References:

The Harmony of the Gospels, Book II, Chapter 77
De Consensu Evangelistarum, Libri Quatour, Liber Secundus
drbo.org

Struthio,

First, thank you for reviving this thread. I hope you continue to supplement it with your thoughts and readings on the issue of the "consummation."

I do not read Latin very well. I am learning the language (on my own without any formal study) by reading through and looking at passages in the Vulgate and consulting the wonderful tools the Lord has given us through the internet for study - a coincidence in the time of the "consummation"? I think not (obviously not). Since I am learning the language, I look forward to your relevant thoughts on the Latin and the Vulgate and Church fathers, particularly things that I mention below that I have noted.

In Matthew 24 we have the following:

Quote
[22] And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.
Et nisi breviati fuissent dies illi, non fieret salva omnis caro : sed propter electos breviabuntur dies illi.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm

Those days shall be "shortened" for the sake of the elect. As you know, the word for "shortened" here is "breviati," and the later form in the verse, "breviabuntur." The root of the words for "shortened" - again, I do not know Latin so correct me if my research is wrong here - is the participle, breviatus, which comes from brevio.  


That word occurs in Isaiah 10 in a passage also talking about the "consummation":


Quote


22] For if thy people, O Israel, shall be as the sand of the sea, a remnant of them shall be converted, the consumption abridged shall overflow with justice.
Si enim fuerit populus tuus, Israel, quasi arena maris, reliquiae convertentur ex eo; consummatio abbreviata inundabit justitiam.
[23] For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, and an abridgment in the midst of all the land.
Consummationem enim et abbreviationem Dominus Deus exercituum faciet in medio omnis terrae.

The words abbreviata and abbreviationem also etymologically relate to the Latin word brevio. If the "consummation" is "abridged," it is obviously a period of time, not an endpoint dot on a timeline. If it is a period that can be abridged, then one must discuss or take account of the period of time involved.

There is another, critical passage in Isaiah 28 (which should be read in full) where the words (or related words) "consummation" and "shortened" are linked:

Quote


14] Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, who rule over my people that is in Jerusalem.
Propter hoc audite verbum Domini, viri illusores, qui dominamini super populum meum, qui est in Jerusalem.

[15] For you have said: We have entered into a league with death, and we have made a covenant with hell. When the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come upon us: for we have placed our hope in lies, and by falsehood we are protected.
Dixistis enim : Percussimus foedus cum morte, et cum inferno fecimus pactum : flagellum inundans cum transierit, non veniet super nos quia posuimus mendacium spem nostram, et mendacio protecti sumus.

[16] Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold I will lay a stone in the foundations of Sion, a tried stone, a corner stone, a precious stone, founded in the foundation. He that believeth, let him not hasten.
Idcirco haec dicit Dominus Deus : Ecce ego mittam in fundamentis Sion lapidem, lapidem probatum, angularem, pretiosum, in fundamento fundatum; qui crediderit, non festinet.

[17] And I will set judgment in weight, and justice in measure: and hail shall overturn the hope of falsehood: and waters shall overflow its protection.
Et ponam in pondere judicium, et justitiam in mensura; et subvertet grando spem mendacii, et protectionem aquae inundabunt.

[18] And your league with death shall be abolished, and your covenant with hell shall not stand: when the overflowing scourge shall pass, you shall be trodden down by it.
Et delebitur foedus vestrum cum morte, et pactum vestrum cum inferno non stabit : flagellum inundans cum transierit, eritis ei in conculcationem.

[19] Whensoever it shall pass through, it shall take you away: because in the morning early it shall pass through, in the day and in the night, and vexation alone shall make you understand what you hear.
Quandocumque pertransierit, tollet vos, quoniam in mane diluculo pertransibit in die et in nocte; et tantummodo sola vexatio intellectum dabit auditui.

[20] For the bed is straitened, so that one must fall out, and a short covering cannot cover both.
Coangustatum est enim stratum, ita ut alter decidat; et pallium breve utrumque operire non potest.

[21] For the Lord shall stand up as in the mountain of divisions: he shall be angry as in the valley which is in Gabaon: that he may do his work, his strange work: that he may perform his work, his work is strange to him.
Sicut enim in monte divisionum stabit Dominus; sicut in valle quae est in Gabaon irascetur, ut faciat opus suum, alienum opus ejus : ut operetur opus suum, peregrinum est opus ejus ab eo.

[22] And now do not mock, lest your bonds be tied strait. For I have heard of the Lord the God of hosts a consumption and a cutting short upon all the earth.
Et nunc nolite illudere, ne forte constringantur vincula vestra; consummationem enim et abbreviationem audivi a Domino Deo exercituum, super universam terram.

http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27028.htm

As a side note: if verse 15 doesn't describe the Conciliar sect, I don't know what does. As I have said before, the model of the Old Covenant and its hierarchy - who killed Christ - is an example from the Lord for our instruction. Rom. 15:4, 1 Cor. 10:11.

Your thoughts?

DR








I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard


Offline DecemRationis

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newadvent.org/fathers

One more Church Father presenting the consummation of the age as a time span including the seduction by Antichrist into the same.


Hippolytus synonymously uses the day of the consummation, the times of the consummation, the time of the consummation, the last day of the consummation:


Hippolytus begins his account of the consummation with two prophets, after Isaiah he quotes Osea:
 
And thanks for the passage from Hippolytus - fascinating. I look forward to studying it
I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard

Offline Struthio

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Great finds, DecemRationis! Isaiah 10:22,23 and Isaiah 28:22.

These quotes do not only show that the consummation is a span of time, but also that the consummation is the time of the great tribulation (Mt 24,21), the days of which will be shortened (Mt 24,22).

What we see today, that the temple of God, i.e. the Church, is usurped by antichrists and their minions and followers, was expected to be a possible scenario for the time of the consummation/tribulation by St. Thomas Aquinas, too:

Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas, Pauline Commentaries, 2 Thess
But in what temple?  [...]

But some say that neither Jerusalem nor the temple will ever be rebuilt, but that their desolation will last until the consummation and the end. And even some Jҽωs believe this. So this text is explained to mean in the temple of God, i.e., in the Church, since many from the church will accept him. Or according to Augustine, he sits in the temple of God, i.e., he rules and governs as though he himself with his messengers were the temple of God, as Christ is the temple with his adherents.

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~2Thess.C2.L1.n40.2


P.S.: aquinas.cc renders St. Thomas' quote of Dan 9,27 usque ad consummationem et finem as until the final consummation. I replaced that by the literal translation from drbo.org until the consummation and the end.

Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

Offline DecemRationis

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Great finds, DecemRationis! Isaiah 10:22,23 and Isaiah 28:22.

These quotes do not only show that the consummation is a span of time, but also that the consummation is the time of the great tribulation (Mt 24,21), the days of which will be shortened (Mt 24,22).

What we see today, that the temple of God, i.e. the Church, is usurped by antichrists and their minions and followers, was expected to be a possible scenario for the time of the consummation/tribulation by St. Thomas Aquinas, too:

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~2Thess.C2.L1.n40.2


P.S.: aquinas.cc renders St. Thomas' quote of Dan 9,27 usque ad consummationem et finem as until the final consummation. I replaced that by the literal translation from drbo.org until the consummation and the end.
Good stuff. We live in significant times and are witnessing what many saints and visionaries saw aforetime. 

I'm sure it fills you with fear and trembling as it does me.
I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard


Offline Arnaldo

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St. Augustine basically says that the Lord's own answer to Declare unto me the fewness of my days is behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the age. Since furthermore the consummation does not come before the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to all nations, and there still are nations among whom the Gospel has not been preached, the Church cannot have fallen into apostasy and have perished (yet).

Hence, Augustine implicity allows for a possible great apostasy when the consummation of the age comes.

So Struthio, are you saying the gates of hell did prevail against the Church at Vatican II, and justifying it by saying Vatican II was "the consummation of the world"?  Just trying to understand your position.

Offline Struthio

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We live in significant times and are witnessing what many saints and visionaries saw aforetime.

I'm sure it fills you with fear and trembling as it does me.

Actually, no. I was filled with fear and trembling in expectance of my personal judgment, and I was downhearted in face of what had happened to the Church (and society), before I have come to these conclusions. And before I have started to look for biblical prophecy, Fathers, etc., explaining what Catholics have witnessed in the past half of a century. The wrath of the Lord is palpable, seeing how Faith and altars have been disposed of in a concerted action lead by Rome.

Since I found out that Homilies XLVIII and XLIX of the Opus Imperfectum of St John Chrysostom on Matth 24 neatly describe what is happening, I feel eased. What a priviledge to be allowed to be witness of the ultimate prophecy being fulfilled. It appears to feel like having been allowed to touch the wounds of Our Lord.

In the meantime, my fear and trembling with respect to my personal judgment is well and alive.
Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

Offline Struthio

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So Struthio, are you saying the gates of hell did prevail against the Church at Vatican II, and justifying it by saying Vatican II was "the consummation of the world"?  Just trying to understand your position.

With respect to the gates of hell, see the second part of Reply #12 of this thread. The Council of Trent says what that means.

The point of this thread is that the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds and a Pope up to the consummation of the age, which by some is understood as the literal last day when Our Lord returns, but rather may be a longer time span, beginning with the time of the great tribulation during which Antichrist reigns.

As an aside: Some Fathers allow for the possibility that Antichrist may be a hosts of heretics usurping the Church.
Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


Offline DecemRationis

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Actually, no. I was filled with fear and trembling in expectance of my personal judgment, and I was downhearted in face of what had happened to the Church (and society), before I have come to these conclusions. And before I have started to look for biblical prophecy, Fathers, etc., explaining what Catholics have witnessed in the past half of a century. The wrath of the Lord is palpable, seeing how Faith and altars have been disposed of in a concerted action lead by Rome.

Since I found out that Homilies XLVIII and XLIX of the Opus Imperfectum of St John Chrysostom on Matth 24 neatly describe what is happening, I feel eased. What a priviledge to be allowed to be witness of the ultimate prophecy being fulfilled. It appears to feel like having been allowed to touch the wounds of Our Lord.

In the meantime, my fear and trembling with respect to my personal judgment is well and alive.
Well, I mean looking out over the devastation, the people (perhaps) in your family that the Wind hasn't listed to blow over (John 3:8 - KJV), and the utter gratuitousness of God's ɛƖɛctıon and mercy. The rather trite and commonplace expression of it is, "there but for the grace of God go I."

This is what I meant, and it makes me shudder at some point during almost every Rosary, etc. It indeed makes me work out my salvation in fear and trembling. 
I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard

Offline Arnaldo

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With respect to the gates of hell, see the second part of Reply #12 of this thread. The Council of Trent says what that means.

The point of this thread is that the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds and a Pope up to the consummation of the age, which by some is understood as the literal last day when Our Lord returns, but rather may be a longer time span, beginning with the time of the great tribulation during which Antichrist reigns.

As an aside: Some Fathers allow for the possibility that Antichrist may be a hosts of heretics usurping the Church.

If the Church no longer has shepherds and teachers it lacks an essential characteristic of the true Church, which means the Church has defected.

Catholic Encyclopedia: "Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm

Offline Struthio

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If the Church no longer has shepherds and teachers it lacks an essential characteristic of the true Church, which means the Church has defected.

Catholic Encyclopedia: "Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm


Many theologians translate "usque ad consummationem saeculi" as meaning "to the end of time" and then conclude "the Church can never ...". Fact is, that the Vatican Council authoritatively teaches that the Church will have shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi" and not that the Church will have shepherds "forever" as your obviously misguided source claims.

The conclusion should be that the Church cannot lose the Apostolic hierarchy before the consummation of the age begins.


P.S.: I recommend that you read the whole thread to avoid presenting objections which have been refuted before.
Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

Offline DecemRationis

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If the Church no longer has shepherds and teachers it lacks an essential characteristic of the true Church, which means the Church has defected.

Catholic Encyclopedia: "Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm

Arnaldo,

The CE also says this (from the article on Predestination):


Quote
Since in reality only those reach heaven who die in the state of justification or sanctifying grace, all these and only these are numbered among the predestined, strictly so called. From this it follows that we must reckon among them also all children who die in baptismal grace, as well as those adults who, after a life stained with sin, are converted on their death-beds. The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jҽωs, Mahommedans, and pagans. Those fortunate Catholics who at the close of a long life are still clothed in their baptismal innocence, or who after many relapses into mortal sin persevere till the end, are not indeed predestined more firmly, but are more signally favoured than the last-named categories of persons.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

You can believe this tripe if you want to, but please don't take it as Catholic dogma that another Catholic is running afoul of if he doesn't toe this crooked line. 

Bottom line: there is an extensive discussion in this thread of the Fathers, Magisterial authority, etc., and look to that for guidance. It's fine to take the CE as a summary or starting point, but its sort of like Wikipedia. Even the Fathers can err, and  I'd take them over the theologians of the CE. 

Lots of the crap that floated up in the Church starting floating up in the couple of hundred years before V2 especially, like some of the stuff in the CE. I would say some of the teachings of the theologians on indefectibility and apostolicity in that timespan can be included in that.  

DR




I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard


 

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