Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 5189 times)

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Offline forlorn

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  • "All days until summer" means "all days until summer" and does not mean "all days including those in the summer".

    You're wasting your and my time.
    The verse does not say "all days until the consummation", it says "all days, EVEN to the consummation". "All days" is not qualified at all. Once again you go twisting Sacred Scripture to try and fit your theory. I can't believe you have the gall to call me intellectually dishonest when you twist Our Lord's words twice. 

    Offline Struthio

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  • "All days until summer" means "all days until summer" and does not mean "all days including those in the summer".

    You're wasting your and my time.

    The verse does not say "all days until the consummation", it says "all days, EVEN to the consummation". "All days" is not qualified at all.

    In my eyes this is a concise representation of our dispute. As far as I am concerned, we're done and can leave conclusions to the reader.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline forlorn

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  • The verse does not say "all days until the consummation", it says "all days, EVEN to the consummation". "All days" is not qualified at all.

    In my eyes this is a concise representation of our dispute. As far as I am concerned, we're done and can leave conclusions to the reader.
    If I were to say "All numbers, even up to 20!" that would be a self-contradictory and logically nonsensical sentence. When you add a comma like that, what comes after is just explaining what comes before, not a qualification of it. All days means all days. 

    And regardless, even if you dismiss that point entirely, you have still failed to address the fact that you have absolutely zero basis for your assumption that Christ was referring to "shepherds and teachers" when he said "I am with you all days". He did not say His Church or anything of the sort, He referred only to Himself. And yet you insist that he's referring to the hierarchy because it suits you.

    Offline Struthio

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  • Quote from: St Augustine, The City of God (Book XX)
    That the last judgment, then, shall be administered by Jesus Christ in the manner predicted in the sacred writings is denied or doubted by no one, unless by those who, through some incredible animosity or blindness, decline to believe these writings, though already their truth is demonstrated to all the world. And at or in connection with that judgment the following events shall come to pass, as we have learned: Elias the Tishbite shall come; the Jҽωs shall believe; Antichrist shall persecute; Christ shall judge; the dead shall rise; the good and the wicked shall be separated; the world shall be burned and renewed. All these things, we believe, shall come to pass; but how, or in what order, human understanding cannot perfectly teach us, but only the experience of the events themselves. My opinion, however, is, that they will happen in the order in which I have related them.

    The City of God (Book XX)


    Following St Augustine, the last judgment shall be administered by Jesus Christ, and may include various events which will consume some amount of time. These events include the operations of Antichrist, which will happen during a time span before the second coming of Our Lord. These events may either be seen as part of the judgment or as happening in connection with the judgment.

    Given that Augustine says in Letter 208 that there will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord, his view of the last days allows for the possibility that there won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days, when Antichrist tries to estinguish the Church.

    The Vatican Council, saying that Christ promised that there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi" gives no precise definition of the term consummatio saeculi going beyond the words of Our Lord in Mt 28,20.

    In Mt 24,14/15 Our Lord seems to suggest that the consummatio saeculi begins with the abominatio desolationis. St Chrysostom in the Opus imperfectum confirms this explicitly, leaving no doubt. In support, I have posted two unequivocal quotes of his.


    Conclusion: My opinion about the last days, which I have presented in the opening post and later on in this thread, is in accord with the view of Augustine. As shown before, it is not an arbitrary opinion contrived by myself, but rather it is proposed by Chrysostom in the Opus imperfectum. The only part I am responsible for is the identification of the Antichrist. Following Chrysostom, the Antichrist is not a single person but hosts of heretics. I identify the 1960's Robber Council and the Conciliar Sect as these hosts of heretics. But the whole topic is independent on the question whether we live in the times of Antichrist or we don't. The main point is: The Vatican Council does not teach that there will be shepherds and teachers until the second coming of Christ, but rather "usque ad consummationem saeculi", which may start some time before the second coming.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline forlorn

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  • The City of God (Book XX)


    Following St Augustine, the last judgment shall be administered by Jesus Christ, and may include various events which will consume some amount of time. These events include the operations of Antichrist, which will happen during a time span before the second coming of Our Lord. These events may either be seen as part of the judgment or as happening in connection with the judgment.

    Given that Augustine says in Letter 208 that there will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord, his view of the last days allows for the possibility that there won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days, when Antichrist tries to estinguish the Church.
    The amount of cognitive dissonance it takes to construct this sentence is staggering. 


    Offline Struthio

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  • The amount of cognitive dissonance it takes to construct this sentence is staggering.

    I'd buy you a pint.  :cheers:
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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  • The amount of cognitive dissonance it takes to construct this sentence is staggering.

    I didn't mean to arouse your astonishment. How about a comment explaining what your thoughts are with respect to the topic?
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline forlorn

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  • I'd buy you a pint.  :cheers:
    Major: "There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
    Minor: "There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
    Conclusion: What are you smoking? 


    Offline Struthio

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  • Major: "There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
    Minor: "There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
    Conclusion: What are you smoking?

    I hereby ask you to get sober and read the whole thread (again) before continuing to waste yours and mine and the reader's time.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline forlorn

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  • I hereby ask you to get sober and read the whole thread (again) before continuing to waste yours and mine and the reader's time.
    Cute joke, it won't resolve your contradiction though.
    "There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
    "There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
    Are the last days no longer part of time? Perhaps that's it? Time ends and then we have the last days, somehow? Well it's an interesting theory, Struthio, but I'm afraid at present we're still within the confines of time, so it doesn't back your idea that there are no longer apostolic shepherds at present.

    Offline Struthio

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  • Cute joke, it won't resolve your contradiction though.
    "There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
    "There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
    Are the last days no longer part of time? Perhaps that's it? Time ends and then we have the last days, somehow? Well it's an interesting theory, Struthio, but I'm afraid at present we're still within the confines of time, so it doesn't back your idea that there are no longer apostolic shepherds at present.

    C'mon boy. Go to sleep! No need to get afraid.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline forlorn

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  • C'mon boy. Go to sleep! No need to get afraid.
    "There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time."

    "There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days."

    Still waiting on how you reconcile these two. 

    Offline Struthio

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  • Major: "There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
    Minor: "There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
    Conclusion: What are you smoking?


    Go to sleep!
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline forlorn

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  • Go to sleep!

    Still no answer. Either there will be apostolic shepherds until the end of time or there won't, it's really not that hard to answer  

    Offline Stubborn

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  • Still no answer. Either there will be apostolic shepherds until the end of time or there won't, it's really not that hard to answer  
    This thread still going I see ha ha!

    Forlorn, as you know, you are the one who is correct in all of this. Struthio interprets, whereas you read what is written as it is written. I dropped out of the debate because it was plain to me that Struthio, for whatever reason, is vehemently insistent on giving a new meaning to the word "consummation" so that for him, it means that which it has never meant before. This seems to satisfy him, not sure what it would do to him if he believed as we do in this matter, but you've said what can be said about it I think. Just my .02.     
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse


     

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