My point is that your interpretation of what "until the consummation" cannot be right, as the exact same words are used by Christ and it would mean that Christ would abandon us in the consummation using your interpretation.

I have responded to that in the post before my most recent one. How do you answer to that one?

Quote from: Struthio on August 23, 2019, 12:52:58 PM

By quoting "usque ad consummationem saeculi", the Vatican Council authoritatively interprets these words of Our Lord to refer to his presence by means of the shepherds.

It doesn't.

The Vatican council says that Our Lord promised to be with the militant Church "omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi" (all days until the consummation of the world) in Dei Filius and that "ita in Ecclesia sua Pastores et Doctores usque ad consummationem saeculi esse voluit" (it was his will that there be shepherds and teachers in his Church until the consummation of the world) in Pastor aeternus.

This obviously refers to Mt 28,20. There is no other promise of Our Lord this could refer to. I don't understand why you disagree.

It just means that the hierarchy will also always be with us just as Christ will be.

Yes, but to be more specific: All days until the consummation of the world. Why do you crop the clear words of Our Lord and of the Vatican Council to "always", which is a disfiguration? Why would anyone want to accept your words and reject the words of Our Lord and his Church?

To say that usque ad consummationem saeculi means until, and not including, the consummation means that Christ would abandon us during the consummation.

It means that in Mt 28,20 Christ did promise his presence until the consummation, and that he did not promise his presence during the consummation. And yes, insofar as shepherds and teachers are not promised for the time span of the consummation, one would or could expect to be without such during that period.

There's no way around that, the same phrase is used in both Vatican I's promise and Christ's promise.

Yes indeed. But, not promising his presence by means of his shepherds during the consummation, does not mean that the sheep are abandoned. There is e.g. the Paraclet. On the other hand, as prophecised by Daniel and by Our Lord himself, a great tribulation will make things very difficult, even for the elect.


https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-ix/la/docuмents/constitutio-dogmatica-dei-filius-24-aprilis-1870.html
https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-ix/la/docuмents/constitutio-dogmatica-pastor-aeternus-18-iulii-1870.html

It doesn't.

The Vatican council says that Our Lord promised to be with the militant Church "omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi" (all days until the consummation of the world) in Dei Filius and that "ita in Ecclesia sua Pastores et Doctores usque ad consummationem saeculi esse voluit" (it was his will that there be shepherds and teachers in his Church until the consummation of the world) in Pastor aeternus.

This obviously refers to Mt 28,20. There is no other promise of Our Lord this could refer to. I don't understand why you disagree.

It uses the same phrase to show that the Church will be with us as long as Christ is with us, i.e until the end of the world. It does not mean that Christ's promise to be with us is just Him promising the Church will be with us.

Yes, but to be more specific: All days until the consummation of the world. Why do you crop the clear words of Our Lord and of the Vatican Council to "always", which is a disfiguration? Why would anyone want to accept your words and reject the words of Our Lord and his Church?

Because the consummation refers to the end of the world, and not a period of time, as proven by the fact that Christ said He would be with us until the consummation. If the hierarchy were to disappear in the last days, then so must Christ, as the exact same phrase is used in both promises.

It means that in Mt 28,20 Christ did promise his presence until the consummation, and that he did not promise his presence during the consummation. And yes, insofar as shepherds and teachers are not promised for the time span of the consummation, one would or could expect to be without such during that period.

Except Christ said "I" and not "my Church" in His promise.

Yes indeed. But, not promising his presence by means of his shepherds during the consummation, does not mean that the sheep are abandoned. There is e.g. the Paraclet. On the other hand, as prophecised by Daniel and by Our Lord himself, a great tribulation will make things very difficult, even for the elect.


https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-ix/la/docuмents/constitutio-dogmatica-dei-filius-24-aprilis-1870.html
https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-ix/la/docuмents/constitutio-dogmatica-pastor-aeternus-18-iulii-1870.html

"by means of his shepherds" is just something you've made up on the spot. Christ does not mention the Church or His shepherds in his promise in MT 28:20.

You presuppose what you call proven.

I don't presuppose it, I prove it by showing that Christ used the EXACT SAME PHRASE to show how it can't mean what you think it means.

You contradict yourself. Above you say that (not Struthio but) the Vatican Council says it: It uses the same phrase to show that the Church will be with us as long as Christ is with us. Here you accuse me, to have made it up on the spot.

Yes, the Vatican Council says the shepherds will be there, but you quoted me in response to you claiming that Mt 28:20 was about the shepherds being there - and it's not. Context matters.

forlorn,


Our Lord and the Vatican council both say usque ad consummationem saeculi. They don't say "always". Rather, you twist the words of Our Lord, distorting their genuine sense.

Our Lord did not say I'll be with you always. Our Lord said that he'll be with you all days until ...

You seem to be deluding yourself.

So you believe Our Lord will abandon the faithful during the consummation? That is the only logical and consistent conclusion to be drawn from your interpretation of usque ad consummationem saeculi.

Yes, abandon in the sense of the Vatican Council, in that there may be no shepherds and teachers.

Once again, you put words in Our Lord's mouth. Nowhere does He mention, refer to or imply "shepherds and teachers" or the hierarchy of the Church in the verse. You're just making that up to try and force the quote to fit your theory. I pointed this out already but you dodged it. 

Once again, you put words in Our Lord's mouth. Nowhere does He mention, refer to or imply "shepherds and teachers" or the hierarchy of the Church in the verse. You're just making that up to try and force the quote to fit your theory. I pointed this out already but you dodged it.


You're intellectually dishonest.

I said "in the sense of the Vatican Council". I didn't say that Our Lord used the words shepherds and teachers. I said that the Vatican Council understands the promise of Our Lord in Mt 28,20 with respect to shepherds and teachers.

You won't be able to divert honest readers from the fact, that it's you who twists the words of Our Lord behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world to mean always.

The Vatican Council uses the same phrase with regards to the consummation as Mt 28:20 does, yes, but that doesn't mean that Mt 28:20 is referring to "shepherds and teachers". Our Lord clearly says HE is with us all days, even usque ad consummationem saeculi. He does not mention the hierarchy at all, and "shepherds and teachers" =/= Christ. Pretending Mt 28:20 is about something which isn't referred to, stated, or implied at all is just ridiculous.

Furthermore, while Christ says he's with us to(i.e until) the consummation, He also says he is with us all days. If the consummation was a period of time before the world ended, then it would be impossible for both statements to be true. If the set of all days includes the consummation, and Christ(or the hierarchy) is only with us until the consummation, then it would be logically impossible for Christ to be with us all days. Yet he says He is. Therefore the consummation cannot be referring to a period of time before the end of the world, but rather the moment in which the world ends. Even if we pretend that the verse is about "shepherds and teachers", despite the fact that there's nothing to point to that, it is still impossible for them to be with us "all days" and yet not be with us during the consummation if the consummation is a period of time, for if they are not with us during the days of the consummation then they are clearly not with us "all days".

No matter how much you blatantly try to twist Scripture to fit your private interpretation, one thing you'll never be able to avoid is simple logic. Your interpretation of the consummation as a period of time makes Christ's promise self-contradictory, proving that you are interpreting it wrong.