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Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 69131 times)

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"Lo, I shall be with you until the end of the ages." Jesus' last words to his apostles

Thanks trad123, for posting the quotes concerning the consummatio.

As far as I can see, there is one quote addressing our question, at what time span or point in time the consummatio will happen.

Quote from: St. Augustine
It must needs happen that these two kinds of pastors, some dying, others succeeding them, should continue in the Catholic Church even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord.

Following Augustine, the apostolic succession should continue even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord. This is clearly opposed to my view.

Interestingly though, Augustine distinguishes between "the end of time" and "the judgment". He deems it necessary to add "the judgment" to "the end of time". On the other hand, the Vatican Council does not mention Judgment Day.


To show that I am not forming my opinions out of thin air, ignoring fathers and doctors of the church, here a quote of St. John Chrysostom. His Opus imperfectum can be found there:

http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/page12.html
http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/OpusImperfectum.pdf

The context is Mt 21,24: "For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be." The destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 which John Chrysostom sees as a prefiguration of what will happen at the consummatio mundi:

Quote from: St. John Chrysostom, Opus imperfectum, homily XLIX
Sicut illi tale facinus commiserunt, quale numquam commissum est, nec est committendum: sic et super illos talis sententia venit, qualis numquam venit, nec veniet. Haec aptius est de consummatione mundi suscipere, cujus figura fuit tribulatio illa. Tunc vere talis erit tribulatio, qualis numquam fuit. Tunc dicent homines, Aperiat se terra, et glutiat nos.

In the same way in which they [the Jews] have committed such a crime [deicide] as has never been committed before and never will be committed in the future, in that same way comes the appropriate punishment [destruction of the city and the temple]. This has to be taken as even more apt with respect to the consummation of the world, whose prefiguration was that tribulation [of the Jews]. Then will be a real tribulation, such as never has been. People will say: The earth may open up and swallow us.

(Sorry for my poor English!)

Following John Chrysostom, the tribulation of the Jews in A.D. 70 prefigures the spritual tribulation of the Church at the end of time. In this quote, he equals the consummation of the world with the tribulation.

In my eyes, his homilies on Mt 24 are the most helpful comment on Matthews little apocalypse, I could find so far. To me, they have been the best help to understand the time we witness.

Other than I thought and said before, there is a translation into English on amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0830829024/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0830829024&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />


No, I don't "privately interpret". That's not the case. Rather, I publicly state my opinion, I publicly state that I have come to the conclusion that the Robber Council is the abomination of desolation.
The Protestant doctrine of private interpretation of Scripture does not mean you keep your interpretation to yourself.  It means you interpret the Scriptures based on your own private judgement, and then use your private interpretation as the basis for your belief.  That is precisely what you are doing.   

The Protestant doctrine of private interpretation of Scripture does not mean you keep your interpretation to yourself.  It means you interpret the Scriptures based on your own private judgement, and then use your private interpretation as the basis for your belief.  That is precisely what you are doing.  
Agreed.

No, I don't "privately interpret". That's not the case. Rather, I publicly state my opinion, I publicly state that I have come to the conclusion that the Robber Council is the abomination of desolation.

The Protestant doctrine of private interpretation of Scripture does not mean you keep your interpretation to yourself.  It means you interpret the Scriptures based on your own private judgement, and then use your private interpretation as the basis for your belief.  That is precisely what you are doing.

Please pardon me for not being as well acquainted with Protestant doctrine as you are. As a Catholic I have dogma, the rule of faith, which enables me to recognise and to hold Catholic truth, in the midst of the darkness of so many errors:

Quote from: General Council of Trent: Twenty-Third Session
But It [the holy Synod] hath resolved to condemn whatsoever things are contrary thereunto, in express and specific canons, in the manner following; in order that all men, with the help of Christ, using the rule of faith, may, in the midst of the darkness of so many errors, more easily be able to recognise and to hold Catholic truth.

Using the rule of faith and my own upper storey, I can recognise a robber council as such. So, I can see that there was a most solemn revolt and that virtually all bishops are apostates or modernist heretics.

Then, reading scripture, like Catholics do, I use the comments of the fathers and doctors as well as authorized exegesis of the magisterium of the Church, to make sure I am on the right track.

It is St. John Chrysostom who says that the abominatio desolationis is the hosts of heretics of the Antichrist which will render (reddidit) the souls of many desolate. And I laugh out loud, when freshmen call me a protestant for daring to again use my own upper storey to connect the last two dots.

Same thing with the consummatio saeculi. I won't be bothered when you copy quotes of theologians and Popes, which just show that they have adopted Pastor aeternus, which teaches that there will be shepherds usque ad consummationem saeculi.

trad123 has posted the only quote so far, which addresses our question, at what time span or point in time the consummatio will happen. Up to when shepherds are promised by Our Lord. The only one, which contradicts my opinion. Augustine says usque ad finem saeculi et usque ad Domini iudicium (EPISTOLA 208, A. Feliciae virgini, choose elenchus = 208) As you can see, Augustine distinguishes between finis saeculi and iudicium Domini. Following Augustine, the finis saeculi obviously happens before the iudicium Domini. Also note that Pastor aeternus does not add a iudicium Domini to usque ad consummationem saeculi. So Augustine is opposed to my view, but if my view is correct, then he is not in accord with Pastor aeternus, either.

Then we have John Chrysostom, who equates the consummatio with the great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. (Mt 24,21) which is also annunciated by Daniel: a time shall come such as never was from the time that nations began even until that time. (Dan 12,1) (see my previous post for links)

The Church, as well as theologians worth that designation, well know that Daniel 12 is about the end of the world. The Douay-Rheims bible even has it in the title of the Chapter: Michael shall stand up for the people of God: with other things relating to Antichrist, and the end of the world. At the end of the world, when the scattering of the band of the holy people shall be accomplished, all these things shall be finished. (Dan 12,7) It is absurd to imagine, that a completely scattered band of the holy people is at the same time gathered by shepherds or even a Pope. Pastor aeternus does not only say that there will be shepherds usque ad consummationem saeculi, but also that they fulfill a purpose.


Conclusion: To defend your claim, that there will be shepherds even to the end of the great tribulation, you would have to furnish some sort of evidence other than your seemingly firm conviction.