Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 82871 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

If it is true, the tree remains where it falls when it dies, does it matter if each one determines the exact year or date of “the end” or Christ’s return?  If, as some have suggested over the years, there is an exact year or date, how do they differ from hundreds, maybe thousands of false prophets, Catholic, Protestant, and otherwise?  I’ve heard all sorts of dates bandied about, all of which have come and gone. 1906? 1900? 2000? October of 1994, 1918, 1965, May 21, 2011, 2033?, 2035, 2047?  
I suppose if enough people each choose a year or a date, someone is apt to have guessed correctly, but Scripture is not a game of BINGO!  
Shall Traditional Catholics join the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons, the Protestant lunatic fringe, the same as that of the Jews, Zionist or anti-Zionist, or the Mayan Calendar that had the world ending in 2012?  One by one, these have ended up in causing the unbelievers to mock. 
Our Lord told His disciples that no man knows but the Father in Heaven. 
Are there signs?  Yes.  Unless you are a Pygmy living in the jungles of New Guinea, having no contact at all with the outside world, one cannot help but recognize the deterioration of general morals. I suspect even the “uncontacted” tribes, if there are any, know by natural law that things are amiss in nature.  How can someone not notice airplanes, climatic anomalies, decline in health of both humans and other sentient creatures? The appearance and effect of litter on the environment?  
Rather than arguing and seeking an end time date, God calls us to “redeem the time because the days are evil.” The question is whether a soul makes use of the time allotted him to save his soul. The “last day” and “end of time” comes for everyone. That is the day of his death, when, like all before us, he must give God account of his soul. 

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
.

I asked a pretty simple yes/no question. Is the Mass being offered today, or is it not?

Yeti,

Sorry for my prior curt response.

I have changed my view regarding the two options on the "remaining issue" in reply #228. My opinion on that, even when I had a somewhat formed one, would be merely what I would call a "leaning." I've gone back and forth on this. In light of that, and since I think there is room for disagreement between the two options I noted, I would not argue or dispute as to another's choice regarding those options.

The thing I am certain about is that the Conciliar Church is an abomination, and represents what Scripture calls the Great Apostasy or Schism. 2 Th. 2:3. It is the Harlot/Whore of the Apocalypse. It should be opposed, without question. God commands to get out of it. Apoc. 18:4.

But I do firmly believe that the view that was summarized in reply #228 is the one that makes sense of this crisis in light of the problems regarding indefectibility and the knots that doctrine produces in light of the current reality of the Conciliar popes and church.

I find it the only consistent view that does not present contradictions, and it's consistent in the way God has dealt with the type of the Church, OT Israel, which also had its leaders and the vast majority of its laity reject the truth and commit apostasy before its desolation. 

DR








Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
This may not be clear to those who have not dived into the wondrous depths of this thread, but to those who have, it will be I think very profound.

In Dei Verbum, paragraph 8, the Second Vatican Council writes:


Quote
English:  "For  as the centuries succeed one  another, the Church constantly moves forward towards the fullness of  divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her."

Latin:  "Ecclesia scilicet, volventibus saeculis, ad plenitudinem divine veritatis iugiter tendit, donec in ipsa consummentur verbal Dei."

Like Caiaphas, who said in John 11:50, "Neither do you consider that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not," the apostate fathers of V2 were uttering words whose significance went way beyond the meaning they thought they were expressing.

It's been shown in this thread, through quotes of the fathers with reference to their source, that Cypian, Augustine, Jerome, Aquinas, and Chrysostom all  considered the "consummationem" referenced by Vatican I (quoting Matthew 28:20) to refer to a series of events to occur in the completion of the age, "consummationem saeculi." These event include the actions of the Antichrist. Here, for example, is St. Jerome talking about "consummatione mundi":


Quote
In consummatione mundi, quando orbis redactus fuerit in solitudinem, et obtenebratus sol in ortu suo, et luna splendorem suum non dederit, tanta fient ab Antichristo signa atque portenta, ut iniquitate crescente, refrigescat charitas multorum, ad decipiendos etiam si fieri potest electos Dei.

https://monumenta.ch/latein/a.php?tabelle=Hieronymus&s=177831&sectio=33&id=Hieronymus,%20Commentarii,%20in%20Isaiam,%2006,%20%20%2013,%20%2033&string=&apparat=%C2%AC_first_frame=&nummer=&domain=&lang=0&target=&inframe=1

GPT Chat translator

In the consummation of the world, when the world shall have been reduced to desolation, and the sun darkened at its rising, and the moon shall not give its brightness, so many signs and wonders will be done by Antichrist that, as iniquity increases, the love of many will grow cold, even to deceiving, if it were possible, the elect of God.


Indeed, little did the Vatican II council (like Ciaphas) understand the fullness of what it was saying, or how it was playing a role in the completion of God's word as the apostate Whore/Harlot of Babylon.  Fortunately, as Our Lord said, and St. Paul repeated, this work of God in fulfilling His design and word will be "cut short," and the Great Apostasy will be come to its end, perhaps soon:


Quote
Mt. 24:20  And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.

Et nisi breviati fuissent dies illi, non fieret salva omnis caro : sed propter electos breviabuntur dies illi


Rom. 9:28 For he shall finish his word, and cut it short in justice; because a short word shall the Lord make upon the earth.

Verbum enim consummans, et abbrevians in aequitate : quia verbum breviatum faciet Dominus super terram :



This "cutting short" of "Israel" - the apostate assembly of old, and the new -  spoken of by Isaiah in Isa. 10:22-23 (quoted by Paul), is related to the prophecy of Isaiah in Chapter 28 of the "cutting short" of the final "consummation" on the earth:


Quote
[21] For the Lord shall stand up as in the mountain of divisions: he shall be angry as in the valley which is in Gabaon: that he may do his work, his strange work: that he may perform his work, his work is strange to him.

Sicut enim in monte divisionum stabit Dominus; sicut in valle quae est in Gabaon irascetur, ut faciat opus suum, alienum opus ejus : ut operetur opus suum, peregrinum est opus ejus ab eo.

[22] And now do not mock, lest your bonds be tied strait. For I have heard of the Lord the God of hosts a consumption and a cutting short upon all the earth.

Et nunc nolite illudere, ne forte constringantur vincula vestra; consummationem enim et abbreviationem audivi a Domino Deo exercituum, super universam terram.

Yes,  indeed, Conciliarists, God  is indeed fulfilling and completing His word in you.


Quote
Apoc. 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Deus enim dedit in corda eorum ut faciant quod placitum est illi : ut dent regnum suum bestiae donec consummentur verba Dei.


Offline OABrownson1876

  • Supporter
Our Lord said "consummatum est" on the cross, and this marked the end of His time in this world.  I am not considering the resurrection obviously.  "consummatio sauculi" I take to mean till the end of time. 

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Our Lord said "consummatum est" on the cross, and this marked the end of His time in this world.  I am not considering the resurrection obviously.  "consummatio sauculi" I take to mean till the end of time.

Right. Our Lord said his "time in this world" this side of the grave was "consummatum." It depends on what is "consummatum." One can plant a garden and reach "consummatum."

The question here is what "consummationem saeculi" means, not "consummatum est" as to Our Lord's work this side of the grave.

I take it to mean what St. Augustine, St. Jerome, St. Cyril, St. Thomas, etc. take it to mean: the events culminating in the end of time.

See especially pages 8-14.