So then, just as he sent apostles, whom he chose out of the world [39], even as he had been sent by the Father [40], in like manner it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.Source: Vatican Council, Pastor aeternus papalencyclicals.net (https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecuм20.htm)
ita in Ecclesia sua pastores et doctores "usque ad consummationem saeculi" [Mt 28,20] esse voluit.Source: Denzinger/Hünermann: Enchiridium symbolorum, Herder, 2009
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.Source: Mt 28,20 drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47028.htm)
docentes eos servare omnia quaecuмque mandavi vobis : et ecce ego vobiscuм sum omnibus diebus, usque ad consummationem saeculi.
[3] And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?Source: Mt 24 drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm)
Sedente autem eo super montem Oliveti, accesserunt ad eum discipuli secreto, dicentes : Dic nobis, quando haec erunt? et quod signum adventus tui, et consummationis saeculi?
[...]
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come.
Et praedicabitur hoc Evangelium regni in universo orbe, in testimonium omnibus gentibus : et tunc veniet consummatio.
[15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.
cuм ergo videritis abominationem desolationis, quae dicta est a Daniele propheta, stantem in loco sancto, qui legit, intelligat:
Very interesting insights.I didn't get that out of the conclusion.
Honest question. How does the conclusion not lead one to consider that the Home Aloners are correct?
Honest question. How does the conclusion not lead one to consider that the Home Aloners are correct?
I didn't get that out of the conclusion.
If there will be shepherds and teachers, i.e. bishops and priests till the end of time, then [...]
You quoted V1 as saying: it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.
The consummation is a time span, the time span we're living in. There will be shepherds and teachers until that time span, until the beginning of that time span.
You quoted V1 as saying: it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.
Best to just accept V1 as it is written.
True!That's fine. Either way it means the same thing. Christ promised: I am with you all days, even "usque ad consummationem saeculi".
So let's stay with the original Latin: "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
That's fine. Either way it means the same thing. Christ promised: I am with you all days, even "usque ad consummationem saeculi".
"consummationem saeculi" is an event, the end of the world is an event, a process to get to that point, yes, but the event itself happens at a point in time, it is therefore a point in time, up until that point in time we know that Christ, the Church, will be with us. We are just as certain that till that point, we will have bishops and priests, as we are certain that He will not leave us as orphans. Once time runs out, woe to them who are on the wrong side at that point.
I forgive you.
Dear Stubborn, please forgive me, but I reject your teachings and will stay with the explanations of the Vatican Council and of Our Lord in Mt 24.
I rarely agree with Stubborn, but I must here. The consummation of the world means the end of the world.
If someone says X will last until the end of time, they mean it will last until the final moment of existence - not that it will cease to exist when the Apocalypse commences.
The abomination of desolation signals the beginning of the End Times, but Vatican I more likely suggests that the Papacy will remain until the end of the End Times(i.e the exact moment the world ends) rather than merely the beginning of the End Times. This is further supported by the fact that the "gates of Hell shall not prevail against Her" promise is not qualified with any "until the End Times" or "until the abomination of desolation" or anything similar.
For which cause, this council has thought good, that the Symbol of faith which the holy Roman Church makes use of, –as being that principle wherein all who profess the faith of Christ necessarily agree, and that firm and alone foundation against which the gates of hell shall never prevail,– be expressed in the very same words in which it is read in all the churches. Which Symbol is as follows: [...]https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/third-session.htm
[...] and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.Source: drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/32009.htm)
@forlornWhat you are doing, is starting with home alonesim, then going through these theological gymnastics in an effort to claim there are no priests and bishops, so as to rationalize home aloneism - all the while claiming that you arrive at your conclusion using "the explanations of the Vatican Council and of Our Lord in Mt 24" - when you are doing no such thing.
I have mentioned Daniel 9,27 in the opening post. Since you are stubborn, lazy, and verloren (https://translate.google.com/?hl=de#view=home&op=translate&sl=de&tl=en&text=verloren), I look it up and put it right in front of your nose:
Source: drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/32009.htm)
to the consummation, and to the end says the prophet.
As you can see: the consummation happens before the end.
It is a good idea to follow our Lord and read Daniel, when we see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.
(The text is about the temple in Jerusalem, destroyed in A.D. 70, not reerected until today.)
Very good question.Were all the authorized shepherds at the Robber Council? Did any of the authorized shepherds renounce the Robber Council?
The abomination of desolation, which is the beginning of the consummation of the world, would be the Robber Council 1962-1965 where virtually all apostolically authorized shepherds met to declare their revolt (2 Thess 2,3) and apostasy and adherence to the "synthesis of all heresies" in a most solemn act. They found a new religion of man and make fire to come down from heaven unto the earth (Apoc 13,13) for their new pentecost.
The Vatican Council explains the promise of our Lord (Mt 28,20) that there shall be apostolically authorized sheperds until the consummation.
The consummation is lasting more than 50 years now. It may last 70 years like the babylonian exile (Dan 9,2), or end before the generation of witnesses of the abomination will pass (Mt 24,32-34).
What should one do in this time of tribulation? flee to the mountains (Mt 24,16), not go back to the house to take ones coat (Mt 24,17-18), Go out from Babylon (Ap 18,4). If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. (Mt 24,26)
Looks like home-aloning is recommended.
What you are doing, is starting with home alonesim, then going through these theological gymnastics [...]
It does not mean that the consummation has already begun [...]
[...] leave us as orphans, hiding in the dark waiting for, what, the end?
No, Stubborn, not true.Without pastors, we would be orphans with no one to feed us, i.e. feed our souls. With that in mind, it is only logical that priests should be the last ones to go, not the first. Seems you claim that V1 really teaches they're the first ones to go, which is exactly opposite of what it actually says.
I was told that the sedevacantist position seems unlikely, since Pastor aeternus refers to Our Lord's promise not to leave us as orphans. Then I checked what Pastor aeternus really teaches.
Were all the authorized shepherds at the Robber Council? Did any of the authorized shepherds renounce the Robber Council?
Without pastors, we would be orphans with no one to feed us, i.e. feed our souls. With that in mind, it is only logical that priests should be the last ones to go, not the first. Seems you claim that V1 really teaches they're the first ones to go, which is exactly opposite of what it actually says.
Whether present or not at the Robber Council, we don't need more than one hand to count those who rejected it.As long as there that many, then the shepherds are not missing.
You are speculating based on the assumption that it's impossible that Catholics are or will be orphans during the consummation.Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, your assumption is unacceptable. - - - What? :confused:
Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, your assumption is unacceptable.
As long as there that many, then the shepherds are not missing.
I am not basing a speculation on an assumption, I am accepting as fact what both V1 and Our Lord Himself said in John 14:18: "I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you."
Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, for faithful Catholics it is a fact that we will not be left as orphans, that there will always be priests and bishops for faithful Catholics, as long as there are faithful Catholics in this world.
They're deceased. Apostolic succession is over. R&R-proponents say that that's impossible, and conclude that the robber conciliar hierarchy didn't lose their offices though they're modernist heretics. Sedevacantists say that they did lose offices. But sedevacantist bishops have no apostolic seat or mandate either.Just to be clear, are you saying the Church, as Christ founded it, no longer exists? That there is no longer a Church that can legitimately carry out the mission that Christ entrusted to it (which requires legitimate authority)?
You want the word "consummation" to mean "consummating" - I think. At this point I can't be sure what you want it to mean.
At what point is the marriage complete? At the consummation of the marriage.
At what point does the world end? At the consummation of the world.
I don't want the term "consummation of the world" mean anything. I just look the meaning up.It means the end of the world. So if there will be a hierarchy until the consummation of the world, there will be a hierarchy until the world ends. Has the world ended yet? Not quite.
Just to be clear, are you saying the Church, as Christ founded it, no longer exists?
That there is no longer a Church that can legitimately carry out the mission that Christ entrusted to it (which requires legitimate authority)?
It means the end of the world. So if there will be a hierarchy until the consummation of the world, there will be a hierarchy until the world ends. Has the world ended yet? Not quite.
No, I don't subscribe to that proposition. My conclusion is: Currently, seats are occupied by apostates or modernist heretics. So currently, the Church isn't carrying out certain tasks which are reserved to legitimate occupants of the seats.
Do you not realize that authority is necessary for the Church to carry our her mission? If the seats are all occupied by apostates and modernist heretics with no authority, there is not longer an ecclesia docents (teaching Church), and the Church, as Christ founded it, no longer exists. A Church without formal apostolic succession lacks the mark of apostolicity, which the true Church will always possess.
Struthio, would you be so kind as to just sum all of this up for me in a few words? I don't quite grasp what you are saying.
I don't quite grasp what you are saying. The Church is there, but it isn't, and the seats are occupied by heretics and apostates. So if that is so, how can you say the Church is still there?
If you are advocating sitting home (by the way, my husband and I [who are senior citizens] did that for almost 3 years and it did not bear good fruits - and, no, we didn't turn the day into a free-for-all either - just stopped going to Mass), yet you claim the Church is still there, there must be somewhere to go?
Here you present an article of a Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913. That's not the Magisterium of the Church, it has no authority. I won't be convinced by such articles or other opinions of theologians.
Please note that saying "until the end of the world" and "until the end of time", this article seems to reference the dogmatic constitution Pastor aeternus of the Vatican Council, where the original Latin is "usque ad consummationem saeculi". To convince me, you would have to show that "usque ad consummationem saeculi" in Pastor aeternus does not have the signification found in Mt 24.
St. John Chrysostom in the Opus imperfectum on Matthew in Homily XLIX on Mt 24 says that the destruction of the Church will parallel the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70. The hosts of Titus in A.D. 70 are hosts of heretics at that time. Most Jews were killed in A.D. 70, and the rest scattered all over the world. Most Catholics will be spiritually killed at that time, and the rest scattered all over the world. Following St. John Chrysostom, "the" Antichrist is not a single person but is the hosts of heretics.Is the above your own thought or did you copy it from St. John Chrysostom? If the latter, do you have a link?
Satis Cognitum, Leo XIII: “[...]”If the Church lacks a legitimate hierarchy with the authority to carry out the mission Christ entrusted to His Church, it follows that the Church as Christ founded it no longer exists, which is contrary to the teaching of Pius XI.
Is the above your own thought or did you copy it from St. John Chrysostom? If the latter, do you have a link?
Struthio, how much time have you devoted to studying all of this?
The above shouldn't be taken in an insulting manner. It is a sincere question.
For the time being, let me say that I do not expect that it will be possible to understand Leo XIII as contradicting Pastor aeternus of the Vatican Council, saying that there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi".
Leo XIII certainly doesn't contradict Pastor Aeternus. What he does contradict is your understanding of consummationem saeculi (consummation of the world)
And, since it was necessary that His divine mission should be perpetuated to the end of time, He took to Himself Disciples, trained by himself, and made them partakers of His own authority.
But, as we have already said, the Apostolic mission was not destined to die with the Apostles themselves, or to come to an end in the course of time [...] but for all time (sed in omne tempus) – ‘even to the consummation of the world’.
Upon which St. Jerome says: ‘He who promises to remain with His Disciples to the end of the world declares that they will be forever victorious, and that He will never depart from those who believe in Him’ (In Matt., lib. iv., cap. 28, v. 20).”
Notice, the apostolic mission will last until “the end of time”
and will not come to an end “in the course of time.”
Also notice that he confirms his statement that the Church will last “for all time,” by quoting Christ’s statement that He will be with the Church “even to the consummation of the world.” This shows that Leo XIII understand “the consummation of the world” to refer to the actual end of time, not a point during the course of time.
That’s how the Church and her theologians have always interpreted the phrase.
Here's the Scripture passage you relied on for your interpretation of "consummation of the world : “And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?”
Based on that you conclude: "Here we have the answer. The consummation will start with the abomination of desolation in the last days of tribulation before the second coming of Our Lord.:
But the apostles didn't ask Christ when "his coming and the consummation of the world" would start. They asked for the sign that would precede the events. The abomination of desolation was one of over a dozen signs that Christ gives them, but none of the signs referred to the "start" of the consummation of the world, and more than they referred to the "start" of His second coming.. They were are all signs that will precede the events.
And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand. ... let them flee to the mountains ... let him not go back to take his coat ... For there shall be then great tribulation ... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.
Next, you privately interpret the "abomination of desolation" as referring to The Robber Council. Then, you join your two private interpretations of Scripture together and use them to interpret Pastor Aeternus' teaching that "there will be shepherds until the consummation of the world" as meaning "there will be shepherds until The Robber Council," which you now apparently consider the definitive meaning intended by the Council Fathers.
Ok, shepherds and teachers up to the consummation of the world.
Now, what exactly does consummatio saeculi mean?
Chapter 84
SOLUTION OF THE PRECEDING ARGUMENTS
6.
(. . .)
the consummation or perfection of creatures
Now the final perfection, which is the end of the whole universe, is the perfect beatitude of the Saints at the consummation of the world; and the first perfection is the completeness of the universe at its first founding, and this is what is ascribed to the seventh day.
"God has provided something better for us, lest they should be consummated," i.e. perfected
2. I exhort you, therefore, not to be too much troubled by those offenses which for this very reason were foretold as destined to come, that when they came we might remember that they had been foretold, and not be greatly disconcerted by them. For the Lord Himself in His gospel foretold them, saying, "Woe unto the world because of offenses! For it must needs be that offenses come; but woe unto that man by whom the offense comes!" Matthew 18:7 These are the men of whom the apostle said, "They seek their own, not the things that are Jesus Christ's." Philippians 2:21 There are, therefore, some who hold the honourable office of shepherds in order that they may provide for the flock of Christ; others occupy that position that they may enjoy the temporal honours and secular advantages connected with the office. It must needs happen that these two kinds of pastors, some dying, others succeeding them, should continue in the Catholic Church even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord. If, then, in the times of the apostles there were men such that Paul, grieved by their conduct, enumerates among his trials, "perils among false brethren," 1 Corinthians 11:26 and yet he did not haughtily cast them out, but patiently bore with them, how much more must such arise in our times, since the Lord most plainly says concerning this age which is drawing to a close, "that because iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold." Matthew 24:12-13 The word which follows, however, ought to console and exhort us, for He adds, "He that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved."
Christ’s love towards men was so great that not only was He willing to endure most cruel sufferings for our salvation and an atrocious death on the cross, but also He wished to nourish us eternally in the sacrament of His body and blood. In this way, He might strengthen us by the presence of His divinity and be the safest bulwark of our spiritual life. And not content to have loved us with such an outstanding and truly divine love, He heaped benefits on benefits, poured out the riches of His love upon us, and, as you know so well, having loved His own He loved them to the end. For, declaring Himself to be an eternal Priest according to the order of Melchisedech, He instituted permanently His priesthood in the Catholic Church. He decreed that that same sacrifice which He performed is to redeem the whole human race from the yoke of sin to reconcile all things in heaven and earth, and to remain until the consummation of the world. He decreed that it be renewed and take plaice daily by the ministry of the priesthood. Only the reason for the offering is diverse, namely, that the salvific and most abundant fruits of His passion might forever be dispersed upon mankind.
3.
(. . .)
The Catholic priesthood-divine in its origin, supernatural in its essence, immutable in its character, is not an institution that can accommodate itself with ease to human systems and opinions. A participation of the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ, it must perpetuate even to the consummation of ages the same mission that the Eternal Father confided to His Incarnate Word: “Sicut misit me Pater, et ego mitto vos.”‘ To work the eternal salvation of souls will always be the great commandment of which it must never fall short, as to faithfully fulfil it, it must never cease to have recourse to those supernatural aids and those divine rules of thought and of action which Jesus Christ gave His Apostles when He sent them throughout the whole world to convert the nations to the Gospel.
Seven ages of this world are spoken of, that is, from the creation of the heaven and earth till the general consummation and resurrection of men. For there is a partial consummation, viz., the death of each man: but there is also a general and complete consummation, when the general resurrection of men will come to pass. And the eighth age is the age to come.
But besides this, the delay itself is not long; nay, for those things are at the doors, and we know not but that even in our own generation all things which concern us may have their accomplishment, and that fearful day may arrive, setting before us the awful and incorruptible tribunal.
Yea, for the more part of the signs are fulfilled, and the gospel moreover has been preached in all parts of the world, and the predictions of wars, and of earthquakes, and of famines, have come to pass, and the interval is not great.But is it that thou dost not see any signs? Why, this self-same thing is a very great sign.
For neither did they in Noah's time see any presages of that universal destruction, but in the midst of their playing, eating, marrying, doing all things to which they were used, even so they were overtaken by that fearful judgment. And they too in Sodom in like manner, living in delight, and suspecting none of what befell them, were consumed by those lightnings, which then came down upon them.
Considering then all these things, let us betake ourselves unto the preparation for our departure hence. For even if the common day of the consummation never overtake us, the end of each one is at the doors, whether he be old or young; and it is not possible for men after they have gone hence, either to buy oil any more, or to obtain pardon by prayers, though he that entreats be Abraham, Luke 16:24 or Noah, or Job, or Daniel. Ezekiel 14:14
Chapter 40
(. . .)
Now the inward man will have, of course, to be renewed by the suggestion of the Spirit, advancing by faith and holiness day after day, here in this life, not there after the resurrection, were our renewal is not a gradual process from day to day, but a consummation once for all complete.
Chapter 16.— Of the New Heaven and the New Earth.
(. . .)
For as soon as those who are not written in the book of life have been judged and cast into eternal fire — the nature of which fire, or its position in the world or universe, I suppose is known to no man, unless perhaps the divine Spirit reveal it to some one — then shall the figure of this world pass away in a conflagration of universal fire, as once before the world was flooded with a deluge of universal water. And by this universal conflagration the qualities of the corruptible elements which suited our corruptible bodies shall utterly perish, and our substance shall receive such qualities as shall, by a wonderful transmutation, harmonize with our immortal bodies, so that, as the world itself is renewed to some better thing, it is fitly accommodated to men, themselves renewed in their flesh to some better thing.
(. . .)
For then there shall be no more of this world, no more of the surgings and restlessness of human life, and it is this which is symbolized by the sea.
Since the world was, in a way, made for man's sake, it follows that, when man shall be glorified in the body, the other bodies of the world shall also be changed to a better state, so that it is rendered a more fitting place for him and more pleasant to look upon. Now in order that man obtain the glory of the body, it behooves first of all those things to be removed which are opposed to glory.
As stated above (Article 1) this cleansing of the world will remove from it the stain contracted from sin, and the impurity resulting from mixture, and will be a disposition to the perfection of glory; and consequently in this threefold respect it will be most fitting for it to be effected by fire.
The cleansing of the world will be for the purpose of removing from bodies the disposition contrary to the perfection of glory, and this perfection is the final consummation of the universe
9.
(. . .)
For the sea by a figure is spoken of this world, with saltness bitter, with storms troubled; where men of perverse and depraved appetites have become like fishes devouring one another. Observe the evil sea, bitter sea, with waves violent, observe with what sort of men it is filled. Who desires an inheritance except through the death of another? Who desires gain except by the loss of another? By the fall of others how many men wish to be exalted? How many, in order that they may buy, desire for other men to sell their goods? How they mutually oppress, and how they that are able do devour! And when one fish has devoured, the greater the less, itself also is devoured by some greater....Because evil fishes that were taken within the nets they said they would not endure; they themselves have become more evil than they whom they said they could not endure. For those nets did take fishes both good and evil.
The Lord says, "The kingdom of Heaven is like to a net cast into the sea, which gathers of every kind, which, when it had been filled, drawing out, and sitting on the shore, they gathered the good into vessels, but the evil they cast out: so it shall be," He says, "in the consummation of the world." Matthew 13:47-49
He shows what is the shore, He shows what is the end of the sea. "The angels shall go forth, and shall sever the evil from the midst of the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
15.
(. . .)
For as by the sin of one man we have fallen into a misery so deplorable, so by the righteousness of one Man, who also is God, shall we come to a blessedness inconceivably exalted. Nor ought any one to trust that he has passed from the one man to the other until he shall have reached that place where there is no temptation, and have entered into the peace which he seeks in the many and various conflicts of this war, in which "the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh." Galatians 5:17
Now, such a war as this would have had no existence if human nature had, in the exercise of free will, continued steadfast in the uprightness in which it was created. But now in its misery it makes war upon itself, because in its blessedness it would not continue at peace with God; and this, though it be a miserable calamity, is better than the earlier stages of this life, which do not recognize that a war is to be maintained. For better is it to contend with vices than without conflict to be subdued by them.
Better, I say, is war with the hope of peace everlasting than captivity without any thought of deliverance.
We long, indeed, for the cessation of this war,
(. . .)
But if (which God forbid) there had been no hope of so blessed a consummation, we should still have preferred to endure the hardness of this conflict, rather than, by our non-resistance, to yield ourselves to the dominion of vice.
XVI. A contemplation of the Divine utterance which said — "Let us make man after our image and likeness"
17. Now just as any particular man is limited by his bodily dimensions, and the peculiar size which is conjoined with the superficies of his body is the measure of his separate existence, so I think that the entire plenitude of humanity was included by the God of all, by His power of foreknowledge, as it were in one body, and that this is what the text teaches us which says, "God created man, in the image of God created He him."
For the image is not in part of our nature, nor is the grace in any one of the things found in that nature, but this power extends equally to all the race: and a sign of this is that mind is implanted alike in all: for all have the power of understanding and deliberating, and of all else whereby the Divine nature finds its image in that which was made according to it: the man that was manifested at the first creation of the world, and he that shall be after the consummation of all, are alike: they equally bear in themselves the Divine image.
(. . .)
XXII. To those who say, "If the resurrection is a thing excellent and good, how is it that it has not happened already, but is hoped for in some periods of time?"
2. You will say then, What is this reason, in accordance with which the change of our painful life to that which we desire does not take place at once, but this heavy and corporeal existence of ours waits, extended to some determinate time, for the term of the consummation of all things, that then man's life may be set free as it were from the reins, and revert once more, released and free, to the life of blessedness and impassibility?
4. One day, doubtless, their terrible condemnation will be the greater for all this worldly wisdom, since, seeing so clearly into vain sciences, they have wilfully shut their eyes to the knowledge of the truth. These men who measure the distances of the stars and describe them, both those of the North, always shining brilliantly in our view, and those of the southern pole visible to the inhabitants of the South, but unknown to us; who divide the Northern zone and the circle of the Zodiac into an infinity of parts, who observe with exactitude the course of the stars, their fixed places, their declensions, their return and the time that each takes to make its revolution; these men, I say, have discovered all except one thing: the fact that God is the Creator of the universe, and the just Judge who rewards all the actions of life according to their merit. They have not known how to raise themselves to the idea of the consummation of all things, the consequence of the doctrine of judgment, and to see that the world must change if souls pass from this life to a new life. In reality, as the nature of the present life presents an affinity to this world, so in the future life our souls will enjoy a lot conformable to their new condition.
Chapter 6. Christians' Belief in the Resurrection
And on this account we believe that there will be a resurrection of bodies after the consummation of all things; not, as the Stoics affirm, according to the return of certain cycles, the same things being produced and destroyed for no useful purpose, but a resurrection once for all, when our periods of existence are completed, and in consequence solely of the constitution of things under which men alone live, for the purpose of passing judgment upon them.
(. . .)
Reply to Objection 1.
(. . .)
Christ's resurrection had to precede the resurrection of others who have all to rise again at the consummation of the world.
ARTICLE VII: FROM THENCE HE SHALL COME TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD
Signs Of The General Judgment
The Sacred Scriptures inform us that the general judgment will be preceded by these three principal signs: the preaching of the Gospel throughout the world, a falling away from the faith, and the coming of Antichrist. This gospel of the kingdom, says our Lord, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come.
The happiness of heaven consists in this alone, and in this alone consists true life on earth: to know, love and honor the Life and Mysteries of Christ. This will be the basis of the account you shall be required to give of yourself at the hour of death. One of the greatest reproaches that will be made against you in that hour, will be the scanty and poor attention and honor you have given to the Life and Mysteries of Jesus.
This will be the Purpose of the Son of God in holding His Universal Judgment at the consummation of time, namely, to exact, by the Power of His Justice, the honor and homage due to His Mysteries by all creatures, and even by His own enemies, before the eyes of heaven and earth. This also is the reason for the existence of hell, that those who shall have failed to honor Christ’s Mysteries on earth by love and free will, will render this necessary tribute in hell through constraint and force, by the Operation of God’s Justice in them.
It must needs happen that these two kinds of pastors, some dying, others succeeding them, should continue in the Catholic Church even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord.
Sicut illi tale facinus commiserunt, quale numquam commissum est, nec est committendum: sic et super illos talis sententia venit, qualis numquam venit, nec veniet. Haec aptius est de consummatione mundi suscipere, cujus figura fuit tribulatio illa. Tunc vere talis erit tribulatio, qualis numquam fuit. Tunc dicent homines, Aperiat se terra, et glutiat nos.
No, I don't "privately interpret". That's not the case. Rather, I publicly state my opinion, I publicly state that I have come to the conclusion that the Robber Council is the abomination of desolation.The Protestant doctrine of private interpretation of Scripture does not mean you keep your interpretation to yourself. It means you interpret the Scriptures based on your own private judgement, and then use your private interpretation as the basis for your belief. That is precisely what you are doing.
The Protestant doctrine of private interpretation of Scripture does not mean you keep your interpretation to yourself. It means you interpret the Scriptures based on your own private judgement, and then use your private interpretation as the basis for your belief. That is precisely what you are doing.Agreed.
No, I don't "privately interpret". That's not the case. Rather, I publicly state my opinion, I publicly state that I have come to the conclusion that the Robber Council is the abomination of desolation.
The Protestant doctrine of private interpretation of Scripture does not mean you keep your interpretation to yourself. It means you interpret the Scriptures based on your own private judgement, and then use your private interpretation as the basis for your belief. That is precisely what you are doing.
But It [the holy Synod] hath resolved to condemn whatsoever things are contrary thereunto, in express and specific canons, in the manner following; in order that all men, with the help of Christ, using the rule of faith, may, in the midst of the darkness of so many errors, more easily be able to recognise and to hold Catholic truth.
To show that I am not forming my opinions out of thin air, ignoring fathers and doctors of the church, here a quote of St. John Chrysostom. His Opus imperfectum can be found there:
http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/page12.html
http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/OpusImperfectum.pdf
Quick Reference
Many sermons have been falsely ascribed to St John Chrysostom; of special interest are those by representatives of heretical movements from which little else survives: three paschal homilies which have been attributed to Apollinaris of Laodicea; two homilies for the octave of Easter which seem to be Anomoean; and the Opus Imperfectum in Matthaeum, a series of Latin homilies by an Arian bishop of the 5th or 6th century.
trad123 has posted the only quote so far, which addresses our question, at what time span or point in time the consummatio will happen.
As Thomas Aquinas was approaching Paris, a fellow traveler pointed out the lovely buildings gracing that city. Aquinas was impressed, to be sure, but he sighed and stated that he would rather have the complete Incomplete Commentary on Matthew than to be mayor of Paris itself. Thomas's affection for the work attests its great popularity ...
Why do you ignore every other quote that discusses the consummation? They're just as much against the narrative you're writing about here.
On top of that, you've created a narrative using a text that apparently was written by an Arian heretic, rather than by St. Chrysostom.
1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2
"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that anything be written unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night."
Nothing, as it seems, is so curious, and so fondly prone to pry into things obscure and concealed, as the nature of men. And this is wont to happen to it, when the mind is unsettled and in an imperfect state. For the simpler sort of children never cease teasing their nurses, and tutors, and parents, with their frequent questions, in which there is nothing else but "when will this be?" and "when that?" And this comes to pass also from living in indulgence, and having nothing to do. Many things therefore our mind is in haste to learn already and to comprehend, but especially concerning the period of the consummation; and what wonder if we are thus affected, for those holy men, themselves, were most of all affected in the same way? And before the Passion, the Apostles come and say to Christ, "Tell us, when shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the world?" Matthew 24:23 And after the Passion and the Resurrection from the dead, they said to Him, Tell us, "dost Thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" From Acts 1:6 And they asked Him nothing sooner than this.
(. . .)
For tell me, what would be the advantage? Let us suppose that the end would be after twenty or thirty or a hundred years, what is this to us? Is not the end of his own life the consummation to every individual? Why are you curious, and travailest about the general end? But the case is the same with us in this, as in other things. For as in other things, leaving our own private concerns, we are anxious about things in general, saying, Such an one is a fornicator, such an one an adulterer, that man has robbed, another has been injurious; but no one takes account of what is his own, but each thinks of anything rather than his own private concerns; so here also, each omitting to take thought about his own end, we are anxious to hear about the general dissolution. Now what concern is that of yours? For if you make your own a good end, you will suffer no harm from the other; be it far off, or be it near. This is nothing to us.
(. . .)
Hear Paul saying, "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night." Not the general day only, but that of every individual. For the one resembles the other, is also akin to it. For what the one does collectively, that the other does partially. For the period of consummation took its beginning from Adam, and then is the end of the consummation; since even now one would not err in calling it a consummation. For when ten thousand die every day, and all await That Day, and no one is raised before it, is it not the work of That Day?
6.
(. . .)
But besides this, the delay itself is not long; nay, for those things are at the doors, and we know not but that even in our own generation all things which concern us may have their accomplishment, and that fearful day may arrive, setting before us the awful and incorruptible tribunal.
Yea, for the more part of the signs are fulfilled, and the gospel moreover has been preached in all parts of the world, and the predictions of wars, and of earthquakes, and of famines, have come to pass, and the interval is not great.But is it that thou dost not see any signs? Why, this self-same thing is a very great sign. For neither did they in Noah's time see any presages of that universal destruction, but in the midst of their playing, eating, marrying, doing all things to which they were used, even so they were overtaken by that fearful judgment.
And they too in Sodom in like manner, living in delight, and suspecting none of what befell them, were consumed by those lightnings, which then came down upon them.Considering then all these things, let us betake ourselves unto the preparation for our departure hence.
For even if the common day of the consummation never overtake us, the end of each one is at the doors, whether he be old or young; and it is not possible for men after they have gone hence, either to buy oil any more, or to obtain pardon by prayers, though he that entreats be Abraham, Luke 16:24 or Noah, or Job, or Daniel. Ezekiel 14:14While then we have opportunity, let us store up for ourselves beforehand much confidence, let us gather oil in abundance, let us remove all into Heaven, that in the fitting time, and when we most need them, we may enjoy all: by the grace and love towards man of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory, and the might, now and always, and forever and ever. Amen.
What wonder then that He does not signify the day of the final consummation, when this day which was so near He did not choose to reveal? And with good reason; to the end they may be ever wakeful, and in a state of expectation and earnest heed.
John 6:40
(. . .)
"And I will raise him up at the last day." Why does He continually dwell upon the Resurrection? Is it that men may not judge of God's providence by present things alone; that if they enjoy not results here, they become not on that account desponding, but wait for the things that are to come, and that they may not, because their sins are not punished for the present, despise Him, but look for another life.
Now those men gained nothing, but let us take pains to gain by having the Resurrection continually sounded in our ears; and if we desire to be grasping, or to steal, or to do any wrong thing, let us straightway take into our thoughts that Day, let us picture to ourselves the Judgment-seat, for such reflections will check the evil impulse more strongly than any bit. Let us continually say to others, and to ourselves, "There is a resurrection, and a fearful tribunal awaits us."
(. . .)
Perhaps some one will say, When will be the consummation? When will be the Resurrection? See how" long a time has gone by, and nothing of the kind has come to pass?" Yet it shall be, be sure. For those before the flood spoke after this manner, and mocked at Noah, but the flood came and swept away all those unbelievers, but preserved him who believed. And the men of Lot's time expected not that stroke from God, until those lightnings and thunderbolts came down and destroyed them all utterly. Neither in the case of these men, nor of those who lived in the time of Noah, was there any preamble to what was about to happen, but when they were all living daintily, and drinking, and mad with wine, then came these intolerable calamities upon them. So also shall the Resurrection be; not with any preamble, but while we are in the midst of good times.
Wherefore Paul says, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
23.
(. . .)
If you will thus school your own sons, they too will instruct their children in turn, and thus this discipline, reaching even to the consummation and appearing of Christ, will bring all that great reward to those who go to the root of the matter. If your son has learned to say, "Believe me;" he will not be able to go up to the theatre, or to enter a tavern, or to spend his time at dice; for that word, lying upon his mouth instead of a bridle, will make him however unwilling feel shame and blush. But if at any time he should appear in these places, it will quickly compel him to retreat.
Suppose some persons laugh. Do thou on the other hand weep for their transgression! Many also once laughed at Noah while he was preparing the ark; but when the flood came, he laughed at them; or rather, the just man never laughed at them at all, but wept and bewailed!
When therefore you see persons laughing, reflect that those teeth, that grin now, will one day have to sustain that most dreadful wailing and gnashing, and that they will remember this same laugh on That Day while they are grinding and gnashing! Then thou too shall remember this laugh! How did the rich man laugh at Lazarus! But afterwards, when he beheld him in Abraham's bosom, he had nothing left to do but to bewail himself
1 Corinthians 10:115.
"Now all these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."
Again he terrifies them speaking of the "ends," and prepares them to expect things greater than had already taken place. "For that we shall suffer punishment is manifest," says he, "from what has been said, even to those who disbelieve the statements concerning hell-fire; but that the punishment also will be most severe, is evident, from the more numerous blessings which we have enjoyed, and from the things of which those were but figures. Since, if in the gifts one go beyond the other, it is most evident that so it will be in the punishment likewise."
For this cause he both called them types, and said that they were "written for us" and made mention of an "end" that he might remind them of the consummation of all things. For not such will be the penalties then as to admit of a termination and be done away, but the punishment will be eternal; for even as the punishments in this world are ended with the present life, so those in the next continually remain. But when he said, "the ends of the ages," he means nothing else than that the fearful judgment is henceforth near at hand.
Many things therefore our mind is in haste to learn already and to comprehend, but especially concerning the period of the consummation;
In consummatione enim gentis Judaeae Jerusalem destructa est, quae tamen videbatur esse Jerusalem, non autem vera erat. In consummatione autem mundi Ecclesia aut desolata, aut desolanda est: adhuc tamen illa quae videbatur Ecclesia, non autem quae vera erat, aut est.
In The Apocalypse of St. John Fr. E.S. Berry [...]
Fr. E.S. Berry makes regular reference to the consummation of the world, and he always understands Mat. 28 to indicate Christ's presence as pervading not "up until" but through the consummation of the world.
The same language used in Daniel (the desolation remaining in the temple until the consummation of the world) is taken by Berry to indicate that the desolation (i.e., the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD) will continue forever, meaning that the temple will never be rebuilt.
the destruction of the temple by the Roman army in 70 A. D. The destruction then wrought shall be final, - it shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.
It's an interesting argument, but it does not seem to be supported by anything other than private interpretation.
The 1921 book of Berry was mentioned on novusordowatch.org some years ago. A PDF can be downloaded at archive.org:.
Rev. E. Sylvester Berry: The Apocalypse of St. John (https://ia800209.us.archive.org/26/items/apocalypseofstjo00berr/apocalypseofstjo00berr.pdf)
No, not true. He does not "indicate Christ's presence as pervading through the consummation of the world". He does neither contradict Our Lord in Mt 28,20 nor the Vatican Council in Pastor aeternus who both say "even to the consummation of the world". This is easily verified searching for "consummation" in the PDF.
.
Yeah, that's how I drew my conclusion. The sense in which he discusses Mat. 28 (wherever it comes up in the book) is a sense of Christ's presence enduring throughout, not "up until" the consummation. For instance in the introduction (page 8 ) he says that Christ's promise is one from which we can draw consolation in the latter days. But one would not draw consolation in living in a time which Christ foretold would be a time of His absence, would one?
I didn't get that out of the conclusion.
If there will be shepherds and teachers, i.e. bishops and priests till the end of time, then Home Aloners (the dogmatic ones), are wrong to think there are no priests left because the end of time has not yet come. The Home Aloners who stay home because there is no TLM near them but do indeed go to the True Mass when it is possible for them to go, are correct in doing so.
See verse 16. Our Lord speaks about the Paraclete, and not about shepherds."Our Lord speaks about the Paraclete, and not about shepherds".
No. The meaning of the term "consummation of the world", used by the Vatican Council, is given by Our Lord in Mt 28 and Mt 24 (see the opening post).
You suggest again that the consummation identifies a point in time or a very short event before the return of Our Lord. But this idea is based on nothing but on your own fantasy.
@forlornStruthio,
I have mentioned Daniel 9,27 in the opening post. Since you are stubborn, lazy, and verloren (https://translate.google.com/?hl=de#view=home&op=translate&sl=de&tl=en&text=verloren), I look it up and put it right in front of your nose:
Source: drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/32009.htm)
to the consummation, and to the end says the prophet.
As you can see: the consummation happens before the end.
It is a good idea to follow our Lord and read Daniel, when we see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.
(The text is about the temple in Jerusalem, destroyed in A.D. 70, not reerected until today.)
No, Stubborn, not true.
I was told that the sedevacantist position seems unlikely, since Pastor aeternus refers to Our Lord's promise not to leave us as orphans. Then I checked what Pastor aeternus really teaches.
It's not "theological gymnastics" to ask what exactly the Council means when saying usque ad consummationem saeculi.
I was quite astonished to find support for home-alonism.
True, I agree. When I say that the consummation has already begun, then that's an observation of mine and not a statement of the Vatican Council. Taking the comments of St. John Chrysostom and the Robber Council as I see it, I come to the conclusion that it has begun.
Prophecy is clear. In the end "the band of the holy people" will be "scattered" (Dan 12,7). The function of the shepherds, and the Pope, is to gather the "holy people", not scatter them. But they will be scattered.
Also, Our Lord himself says: "And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened." (Mt 24,22) Does that sound like we have to expect flourishing parishes, shepherds and a Pope, when Our Lord returns?
27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.(http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Daniel/index.htm)
http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Daniel/index.htm (http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Daniel/index.htm)
Are you familiar with the Septuagint?
It has a very interesting translation of Daniel 9:27
Leo XIII also teaches that the Church is to remain visible to the end of time:
Satis Cognitum, LeoXIII: “… the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ – ‘Now you are the body of Christ’ (I Cor. xii., 27) - and precisely because it is a body is the Church visible: (…) those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error: (…)
[Leo XIII:] The connection and union of both elements [i.e., visible and invisible] is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.
[Leo XIII:]As Christ, the Head and Exemplar, is not wholly in His visible human nature, which Photinians and Nestorians assert, nor wholly in the invisible divine nature, as the Monophysites hold, but is one, from and in both natures, visible and invisible; so the mystical body of Christ is the true Church, only because its visible parts draw life and power from the supernatural gifts and other things whence spring their very nature and essence. But since the Church is such by divine will and constitution, such it must uniformly remain to the end of time (in aeternitate temporum). If it did not, then it would not have been founded as perpetual, and the end set before it would have been limited to some certain place and to some certain period of time (locorum esset temporumque certo spatio defintlus); both of which are contrary to the truth. The union consequently of visible and invisible elements because it harmonizes with the natural order and by God's will belongs to the very essence of the Church, must necessarily remain so long as the Church itself shall endure.”
No, not at all. I don't understand Greek.
What are your conclusions from the translations you've posted?
[26] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=9&l=26-#x) For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.
alioquin oportebat eum frequenter pati ab origine mundi : nunc autem semel in consummatione saeculorum, ad destitutionem peccati, per hostiam suam apparuit.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/65009.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/65009.htm)
[22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=47&ch=24&l=22-#x) And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.
Et nisi breviati fuissent dies illi, non fieret salva omnis caro : sed propter electos breviabuntur dies illi.http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm)
Unless those day are shortened, "no flesh should be saved." I interpret that to mean that there will be at least one living human being, one of the elect, alive in the flesh when Christ returns.
DecemRationis,
yes, in various biblical passages the term consummation (completion, perfection) does signify a procedure, taking a certain amount of time. In John 19,30 (http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50019.htm) the passion of Our Lord is completed, and the old covenant is irreparably broken. And in your other quote (Hebr 9,26 (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/65009.htm)) the Apostle even has the consummation of the world (consummatio saeculi) last through the time of the Gentiles, the time of the Church.
Now, the Vatican Council, in Pastor aeternus, saying it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the world, obviously does not speak about the consummation of the world in the same sense in which the Apostle does, but rather with respect to a shorter time span close to the end. Following Denzinger/Hünermann the fathers of the Vatican Council refer to the very last words of the Gospel of Matthew Mt 28,20 (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47028.htm) and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Additionally, in the Olivet Apocalypse as told by Matthew, Our Lord himself says And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come (Mt 24,14 (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm)). I assume that most would agree, that Pastor aeternus refers to that same consummation of the world, though some say that it doesn't start with the abomination of desolation, but at some later point, maybe not before Judgment Day.
Now, the Vatican Council, in Pastor aeternus, saying it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the world,If you take Pastor Aeternus to mean that the shepherds and teachers will no longer be there during the consummation, then you would also have to take Mt 28:20 to mean that Christ will no longer be with us during the consummation. Which is a ridiculous position, of course.
Mt 28,20 (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47028.htm) and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
If you take Pastor Aeternus to mean that the shepherds and teachers will no longer be there during the consummation, then you would also have to take Mt 28:20 to mean that Christ will no longer be with us during the consummation. Which is a ridiculous position, of course.
[...] behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
If you take Pastor Aeternus to mean that the shepherds and teachers will no longer be there during the consummation, then you would also have to take Mt 28:20 to mean that Christ will no longer be with us during the consummation. Which is a ridiculous position, of course.
My point is that your interpretation of what "until the consummation" cannot be right, as the exact same words are used by Christ and it would mean that Christ would abandon us in the consummation using your interpretation.
Isn't rather the opposing position absurd? A scattered remnant — gathered by shepherds.
My point is that your interpretation of what "until the consummation" cannot be right, as the exact same words are used by Christ and it would mean that Christ would abandon us in the consummation using your interpretation.
By quoting "usque ad consummationem saeculi", the Vatican Council authoritatively interprets these words of Our Lord to refer to his presence by means of the shepherds.It doesn't. It just means that the hierarchy will also always be with us just as Christ will be. To say that usque ad consummationem saeculi means until, and not including, the consummation means that Christ would abandon us during the consummation. There's no way around that, the same phrase is used in both Vatican I's promise and Christ's promise.
By quoting "usque ad consummationem saeculi", the Vatican Council authoritatively interprets these words of Our Lord to refer to his presence by means of the shepherds.
It doesn't.
It just means that the hierarchy will also always be with us just as Christ will be.
To say that usque ad consummationem saeculi means until, and not including, the consummation means that Christ would abandon us during the consummation.
There's no way around that, the same phrase is used in both Vatican I's promise and Christ's promise.
(https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53040.0;attach=13248;image)
It doesn't.
The Vatican council says that Our Lord promised to be with the militant Church "omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi" (all days until the consummation of the world) in Dei Filius and that "ita in Ecclesia sua Pastores et Doctores usque ad consummationem saeculi esse voluit" (it was his will that there be shepherds and teachers in his Church until the consummation of the world) in Pastor aeternus.
This obviously refers to Mt 28,20. There is no other promise of Our Lord this could refer to. I don't understand why you disagree.
Yes, but to be more specific: All days until the consummation of the world. Why do you crop the clear words of Our Lord and of the Vatican Council to "always", which is a disfiguration? Why would anyone want to accept your words and reject the words of Our Lord and his Church?
It means that in Mt 28,20 Christ did promise his presence until the consummation, and that he did not promise his presence during the consummation. And yes, insofar as shepherds and teachers are not promised for the time span of the consummation, one would or could expect to be without such during that period.
Yes indeed. But, not promising his presence by means of his shepherds during the consummation, does not mean that the sheep are abandoned. There is e.g. the Paraclet. On the other hand, as prophecised by Daniel and by Our Lord himself, a great tribulation will make things very difficult, even for the elect.
https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-ix/la/docuмents/constitutio-dogmatica-dei-filius-24-aprilis-1870.html
https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-ix/la/docuмents/constitutio-dogmatica-pastor-aeternus-18-iulii-1870.html
Quote from: StruthioYes, but to be more specific: All days until the consummation of the world. Why do you crop the clear words of Our Lord and of the Vatican Council to "always", which is a disfiguration? Why would anyone want to accept your words and reject the words of Our Lord and his Church?
Because the consummation refers to the end of the world, and not a period of time, as proven by the fact that Christ said He would be with us until the consummation.
It uses the same phrase to show that the Church will be with us as long as Christ is with us, i.e until the end of the world.
"by means of his shepherds" is just something you've made up on the spot. Christ does not mention the Church or His shepherds in his promise in MT 28:20.
You presuppose what you call proven.
You contradict yourself. Above you say that (not Struthio but) the Vatican Council says it: It uses the same phrase to show that the Church will be with us as long as Christ is with us. Here you accuse me, to have made it up on the spot.
forlorn,So you believe Our Lord will abandon the faithful during the consummation? That is the only logical and consistent conclusion to be drawn from your interpretation of usque ad consummationem saeculi.
Our Lord and the Vatican council both say usque ad consummationem saeculi. They don't say "always". Rather, you twist the words of Our Lord, distorting their genuine sense.
Our Lord did not say I'll be with you always. Our Lord said that he'll be with you all days until ...
You seem to be deluding yourself.
So you believe Our Lord will abandon the faithful during the consummation? That is the only logical and consistent conclusion to be drawn from your interpretation of usque ad consummationem saeculi.
That the last judgment, then, shall be administered by Jesus Christ in the manner predicted in the sacred writings is denied or doubted by no one, unless by those who, through some incredible animosity or blindness, decline to believe these writings, though already their truth is demonstrated to all the world. And at or in connection with that judgment the following events shall come to pass, as we have learned: Elias the Tishbite shall come; the Jews shall believe; Antichrist shall persecute; Christ shall judge; the dead shall rise; the good and the wicked shall be separated; the world shall be burned and renewed. All these things, we believe, shall come to pass; but how, or in what order, human understanding cannot perfectly teach us, but only the experience of the events themselves. My opinion, however, is, that they will happen in the order in which I have related them.
It must needs happen that these two kinds of pastors, some dying, others succeeding them, should continue in the Catholic Church even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord.
Yes, abandon in the sense of the Vatican Council, in that there may be no shepherds and teachers.Once again, you put words in Our Lord's mouth. Nowhere does He mention, refer to or imply "shepherds and teachers" or the hierarchy of the Church in the verse. You're just making that up to try and force the quote to fit your theory. I pointed this out already but you dodged it.
Yes, abandon in the sense of the Vatican Council, in that there may be no shepherds and teachers.
Once again, you put words in Our Lord's mouth. Nowhere does He mention, refer to or imply "shepherds and teachers" or the hierarchy of the Church in the verse. You're just making that up to try and force the quote to fit your theory. I pointed this out already but you dodged it.
Once again, you put words in Our Lord's mouth. Nowhere does He mention, refer to or imply "shepherds and teachers" or the hierarchy of the Church in the verse. You're just making that up to try and force the quote to fit your theory. I pointed this out already but you dodged it.The Vatican Council uses the same phrase with regards to the consummation as Mt 28:20 does, yes, but that doesn't mean that Mt 28:20 is referring to "shepherds and teachers". Our Lord clearly says HE is with us all days, even usque ad consummationem saeculi. He does not mention the hierarchy at all, and "shepherds and teachers" =/= Christ. Pretending Mt 28:20 is about something which isn't referred to, stated, or implied at all is just ridiculous.
You're intellectually dishonest.
I said "in the sense of the Vatican Council". I didn't say that Our Lord used the words shepherds and teachers. I said that the Vatican Council understands the promise of Our Lord in Mt 28,20 with respect to shepherds and teachers.
You won't be able to divert honest readers from the fact, that it's you who twists the words of Our Lord behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world to mean always.
"All days until summer" means "all days until summer" and does not mean "all days including those in the summer".The verse does not say "all days until the consummation", it says "all days, EVEN to the consummation". "All days" is not qualified at all. Once again you go twisting Sacred Scripture to try and fit your theory. I can't believe you have the gall to call me intellectually dishonest when you twist Our Lord's words twice.
You're wasting your and my time.
"All days until summer" means "all days until summer" and does not mean "all days including those in the summer".
You're wasting your and my time.
The verse does not say "all days until the consummation", it says "all days, EVEN to the consummation". "All days" is not qualified at all.
The verse does not say "all days until the consummation", it says "all days, EVEN to the consummation". "All days" is not qualified at all.If I were to say "All numbers, even up to 20!" that would be a self-contradictory and logically nonsensical sentence. When you add a comma like that, what comes after is just explaining what comes before, not a qualification of it. All days means all days.
In my eyes this is a concise representation of our dispute. As far as I am concerned, we're done and can leave conclusions to the reader.
That the last judgment, then, shall be administered by Jesus Christ in the manner predicted in the sacred writings is denied or doubted by no one, unless by those who, through some incredible animosity or blindness, decline to believe these writings, though already their truth is demonstrated to all the world. And at or in connection with that judgment the following events shall come to pass, as we have learned: Elias the Tishbite shall come; the Jews shall believe; Antichrist shall persecute; Christ shall judge; the dead shall rise; the good and the wicked shall be separated; the world shall be burned and renewed. All these things, we believe, shall come to pass; but how, or in what order, human understanding cannot perfectly teach us, but only the experience of the events themselves. My opinion, however, is, that they will happen in the order in which I have related them.
The City of God (Book XX) (http://newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm)The amount of cognitive dissonance it takes to construct this sentence is staggering.
Following St Augustine, the last judgment shall be administered by Jesus Christ, and may include various events which will consume some amount of time. These events include the operations of Antichrist, which will happen during a time span before the second coming of Our Lord. These events may either be seen as part of the judgment or as happening in connection with the judgment.
Given that Augustine says in Letter 208 (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102208.htm) that there will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord, his view of the last days allows for the possibility that there won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days, when Antichrist tries to estinguish the Church.
The amount of cognitive dissonance it takes to construct this sentence is staggering.
The amount of cognitive dissonance it takes to construct this sentence is staggering.
I'd buy you a pint. :cheers:Major: "There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
Major: "There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
Minor: "There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
Conclusion: What are you smoking?
I hereby ask you to get sober and read the whole thread (again) before continuing to waste yours and mine and the reader's time.Cute joke, it won't resolve your contradiction though.
Cute joke, it won't resolve your contradiction though.
"There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
"There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
Are the last days no longer part of time? Perhaps that's it? Time ends and then we have the last days, somehow? Well it's an interesting theory, Struthio, but I'm afraid at present we're still within the confines of time, so it doesn't back your idea that there are no longer apostolic shepherds at present.
C'mon boy. Go to sleep! No need to get afraid."There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time."
Major: "There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
Minor: "There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
Conclusion: What are you smoking?
Go to sleep!
Still no answer. Either there will be apostolic shepherds until the end of time or there won't, it's really not that hard to answerThis thread still going I see ha ha!
Mota vocibus vestris et falsis opinionibus vestris, quaerit a Deo ut exiguitatem dierum suorum annuntiet sibi, et invenit Dominum dixisse: Ecce ego vobiscuм sum usque in consummationem saeculi. [Mt 18,20] Hic vos dicitis: De nobis dixit; nos sumus, nos erimus usque in consummationem saeculi. Interrogetur ipse Christus, cui dictum est: Exiguitatem dierum meorum annuntia mihi. Et praedicabitur, inquit, hoc Evangelium in universo orbe, in testimonium omnibus gentibus; et tunc veniet finis [Mt 24,14]. Quid est quod dicebas: Hoc certe fuit et periit? Dominum audi annuntiantem exiguitatem dierum meorum. Praedicabitur, inquit, hoc Evangelium. Ubi? In toto orbe terrarum. Quibus? In testimonium omnibus gentibus. Quid postea? Et tunc veniet finis. Non vides adhuc esse gentes in quibus nondum est praedicatum Evangelium? cuм ergo necesse sit impleri quod Dominus dixit, exiguitatem dierum meorum annuntians Ecclesiae, ut praedicetur hoc Evangelium in omnibus gentibus, et tunc veniat finis; quid est quod dicis iam perisse Ecclesiam de omnibus gentibus, quando ad hoc praedicatur Evangelium, ut possit esse in omnibus gentibus? Ergo usque in finem saeculi Ecclesia in omnibus gentibus;
[...]
Non ergo blandiantur sibi contra me haeretici, quia dixi: Exiguitatem dierum meorum, quasi non permansuram usque in finem saeculi. Quid enim addidit? Ne revoces me in dimidium dierum meorum. Noli, quomodo haeretici loquuntur, sic mecuм agere. Usque in finem saeculi me perduc, non in dimidium dierum meorum;
Moved by your [the Donatists] voices and your false opinions, she [the Church] asks God to let her know the fewness of her days and discovers that the Lord has said: Behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the age [Mt 28,20]. Here you say: He has said it of us; we exist, we will exist until the consummation of the age. Let's interrogate Christ himself, whom she asked: Let me know the fewness of my days. And this gospel of the kingdom, says he, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. [Mt 24,14]. What did you say: The Church surely once was and has perished? Listen to the Lord who makes me know the fewness of my days. This Gospel, says he, will be preached. Where? In the whole world. Why? For a testimony to all nations. And then? Then shall the consummation come.
Do you see not that there are still nations among whom the Gospel has not been preached? Since then it is needful that what the Lord spoke shall be fulfilled, declaring unto the Church the fewness of my days, that this Gospel be preached in all nations, and then that the consummation may come, why is it that you say that the Church has already perished from among all nations, when the Gospel is being preached for this purpose, that it may be in all nations? Therefore the Church remains unto the consummation of the world, in all nations;
[...]
Let not therefore heretics flatter themselves against me, because I said, the fewness of my days, as if they would not last down to the end of the world. For what has he added? O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days Psalm 101:24. Deal Thou not with me according as heretics speak. Lead me on unto the end of the world, not only to the middle of my days;
Hence, Augustine implicity allows for a possible great apostasy when the consummation of the age comes.
[3] Ne quis vos seducat ullo modo : quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum, et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
[3] ne quis vos seducat ullo modo; quoniam nisi venerit refuga primum et revelatus fuerit homo peccati, filius interitus
[3] let no man deceive you by any means; for unless there come the runaway first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of doom
No one can doubt that he wrote this of Antichrist and of the day of judgment, which he here calls the day of the Lord, nor that he declared that this day should not come unless he first came who is called the apostate
And on this account some think that in this passage Antichrist means not the prince himself alone, but his whole body, that is, the mass of men who adhere to him, along with him their prince;
and they also think that we should render the Greek more exactly were we to read, not "in the temple of God," but "for" or "as the temple of God," as if he himself were the temple of God, the Church.
Chapter 77. Of the Harmony Subsisting Between the Three Evangelists in Their Narratives of the Discourse Which He Delivered on the Mount of Olives, When the Disciples Asked When the Consummation Should Happen.
147. [...] We have now, therefore, to examine this lengthened discourse as it meets us in the three evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. For they all introduce it in their narratives, and that, too, in the same order. Here, as elsewhere, each of these writers gives some matters which are peculiar to himself, in which, nevertheless, we have not to apprehend any suspicion of inconsistency. But what we have to make sure of is the proof that, in those passages which are exact parallels, they are nowhere to be regarded as in antagonism with each other. For if anything bearing the appearance of a contradiction meets us here, the simple affirmation that it is something wholly distinct, and uttered by the Lord in similar terms indeed, but on a totally different occasion, cannot be deemed a legitimate mode of explanation in a case like this, where the narrative, as given by all the three evangelists, moves in the same connection at once of subjects and of dates.
148. Again, what Matthew states in this form, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the consummation come," is given also in the same connection by Mark in the following manner: "And the gospel must first be published among all nations." Mark has not added the words, "and then shall the consummation come;" but he indicates what they express, when he uses the phrase "first" in the sentence, "And the gospel must first be published among all nations." For they had asked Him about the end. And therefore, when He addresses them thus, "The gospel must first be published among all nations," the term "first" clearly suggests the idea of something to be done before the consummation should come.
For I shall unfold to you today a narration full of horror and fear, to wit, the account of the consummation, and in particular, of the seduction of the whole world by the enemy and devil; and after these things, the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.newadvent.org/fathers (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0504.htm)
Wherefore also in the last day of the consummation, it must needs be that false Christs will arise again
Wherefore let us direct our discourse to a second witness. And of what sort is this one? Listen to Osea, as he speaks thus grandly: "In those days the Lord shall bring on a burning wind from the desert against them, and shall make their veins dry, and shall make their springs desolate; and all their goodly vessels shall be spoiled. Because they rose up against God, they shall fall by the sword, and their women with child shall be ripped up." Hosea 13:15 And what else is this burning wind from the east, than the Antichrist that is to destroy and dry up the veins of the waters and the fruits of the trees in his times, because men set their hearts on his works? For which reason he shall indeed destroy them, and they shall serve him in his pollution.
Three evangelists report about the disciples' question asked on the Mount of Olives: When should the consummation happen?
St. Augustine says that these passages are exact parallels and must not be read in antagonism with each other:
With respect to the question concerning the final consummation one finds
Mt: Quod signum consummationis saeculi?
Mc: Quod signum erit, quando haec omnia incipient consummari?
Lk: Quod signum cuм fieri incipient?
Mt: What shall be the sign of the consummation of the age?
Mc: What shall be the sign when all this begins to be consummated/fulfilled?
Lk: What shall be the sign when all this begins to come to pass?
Luke 13:3 relates that Our Lord was asked by Peter, James, John, and Andrew. Following the instructions given by Augustine, we can assert that the consummation of the age corresponds to the fulfillment of all this, i.e. a series of announced events coming to pass. The question ask for the sign signalling the beginning of the events constituting the consummation.
When do the announced events begin to come to pass?
The announced events coming to pass during the consummation are those events mentioned by our Lord after he says et tunc veniet consummatio (Mt 24:14, and then shall the consummation come). The consummation begins, when we see the abomination of desolation in the holy place (Mt 24:15), after the gospel has been preached among all nations (Mt 24:14).
Luke summarizes what this consummation is about: For these are the days of vengeance, that all things may be fulfilled, that are written. (Lk 21:22)
Conclusion: The consummation of the age is not a point in time or a literal day, but rather a span of time, the time of great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be (Mt 24:21) as announced in (Dan 12:1), a span of time during which false prophet's try to deceive (if possible) even the elect (Mt 24:24).
References:
The Harmony of the Gospels, Book II, Chapter 77 (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1602277.htm)
De Consensu Evangelistarum, Libri Quatour, Liber Secundus (https://www.augustinus.it/latino/consenso_evangelisti/consenso_evangelisti_2.htm)
drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org)
[22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=47&ch=24&l=22-#x) And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.
Et nisi breviati fuissent dies illi, non fieret salva omnis caro : sed propter electos breviabuntur dies illi.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm)
22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=10&l=22-#x) For if thy people, O Israel, shall be as the sand of the sea, a remnant of them shall be converted, the consumption abridged shall overflow with justice.
Si enim fuerit populus tuus, Israel, quasi arena maris, reliquiae convertentur ex eo; consummatio abbreviata inundabit justitiam.[23] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=10&l=23-#x) For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, and an abridgment in the midst of all the land.
Consummationem enim et abbreviationem Dominus Deus exercituum faciet in medio omnis terrae.http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27010.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27010.htm)
14] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=14-#x) Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, who rule over my people that is in Jerusalem.
Propter hoc audite verbum Domini, viri illusores, qui dominamini super populum meum, qui est in Jerusalem.
[15] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=15-#x) For you have said: We have entered into a league with death, and we have made a covenant with hell. When the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come upon us: for we have placed our hope in lies, and by falsehood we are protected.
Dixistis enim : Percussimus foedus cuм morte, et cuм inferno fecimus pactum : flagellum inundans cuм transierit, non veniet super nos quia posuimus mendacium spem nostram, et mendacio protecti sumus.
[16] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=16-#x) Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold I will lay a stone in the foundations of Sion, a tried stone, a corner stone, a precious stone, founded in the foundation. He that believeth, let him not hasten.
Idcirco haec dicit Dominus Deus : Ecce ego mittam in fundamentis Sion lapidem, lapidem probatum, angularem, pretiosum, in fundamento fundatum; qui crediderit, non festinet.
[17] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=17-#x) And I will set judgment in weight, and justice in measure: and hail shall overturn the hope of falsehood: and waters shall overflow its protection.
Et ponam in pondere judicium, et justitiam in mensura; et subvertet grando spem mendacii, et protectionem aquae inundabunt.
[18] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=18-#x) And your league with death shall be abolished, and your covenant with hell shall not stand: when the overflowing scourge shall pass, you shall be trodden down by it.
Et delebitur foedus vestrum cuм morte, et pactum vestrum cuм inferno non stabit : flagellum inundans cuм transierit, eritis ei in conculcationem.
[19] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=19-#x) Whensoever it shall pass through, it shall take you away: because in the morning early it shall pass through, in the day and in the night, and vexation alone shall make you understand what you hear.
Quandocuмque pertransierit, tollet vos, quoniam in mane diluculo pertransibit in die et in nocte; et tantummodo sola vexatio intellectum dabit auditui.
[20] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=20-#x) For the bed is straitened, so that one must fall out, and a short covering cannot cover both.
Coangustatum est enim stratum, ita ut alter decidat; et pallium breve utrumque operire non potest.
[21] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=21-#x) For the Lord shall stand up as in the mountain of divisions: he shall be angry as in the valley which is in Gabaon: that he may do his work, his strange work: that he may perform his work, his work is strange to him.
Sicut enim in monte divisionum stabit Dominus; sicut in valle quae est in Gabaon irascetur, ut faciat opus suum, alienum opus ejus : ut operetur opus suum, peregrinum est opus ejus ab eo.
[22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=22-#x) And now do not mock, lest your bonds be tied strait. For I have heard of the Lord the God of hosts a consumption and a cutting short upon all the earth.
Et nunc nolite illudere, ne forte constringantur vincula vestra; consummationem enim et abbreviationem audivi a Domino Deo exercituum, super universam terram.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27028.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27028.htm)
newadvent.org/fathers (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0504.htm)
One more Church Father presenting the consummation of the age as a time span including the seduction by Antichrist into the same.
Hippolytus synonymously uses the day of the consummation, the times of the consummation, the time of the consummation, the last day of the consummation:
Hippolytus begins his account of the consummation with two prophets, after Isaiah he quotes Osea:
But in what temple? [...]
But some say that neither Jerusalem nor the temple will ever be rebuilt, but that their desolation will last until the consummation and the end. And even some Jews believe this. So this text is explained to mean in the temple of God, i.e., in the Church, since many from the church will accept him. Or according to Augustine, he sits in the temple of God, i.e., he rules and governs as though he himself with his messengers were the temple of God, as Christ is the temple with his adherents.
Great finds, DecemRationis! Isaiah 10:22,23 and Isaiah 28:22.Good stuff. We live in significant times and are witnessing what many saints and visionaries saw aforetime.
These quotes do not only show that the consummation is a span of time, but also that the consummation is the time of the great tribulation (Mt 24,21), the days of which will be shortened (Mt 24,22).
What we see today, that the temple of God, i.e. the Church, is usurped by antichrists and their minions and followers, was expected to be a possible scenario for the time of the consummation/tribulation by St. Thomas Aquinas, too:
https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~2Thess.C2.L1.n40.2
P.S.: aquinas.cc renders St. Thomas' quote of Dan 9,27 usque ad consummationem et finem as until the final consummation. I replaced that by the literal translation from drbo.org until the consummation and the end.
St. Augustine basically says that the Lord's own answer to Declare unto me the fewness of my days is behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the age. Since furthermore the consummation does not come before the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to all nations, and there still are nations among whom the Gospel has not been preached, the Church cannot have fallen into apostasy and have perished (yet).
Hence, Augustine implicity allows for a possible great apostasy when the consummation of the age comes.
We live in significant times and are witnessing what many saints and visionaries saw aforetime.
I'm sure it fills you with fear and trembling as it does me.
So Struthio, are you saying the gates of hell did prevail against the Church at Vatican II, and justifying it by saying Vatican II was "the consummation of the world"? Just trying to understand your position.
Actually, no. I was filled with fear and trembling in expectance of my personal judgment, and I was downhearted in face of what had happened to the Church (and society), before I have come to these conclusions. And before I have started to look for biblical prophecy, Fathers, etc., explaining what Catholics have witnessed in the past half of a century. The wrath of the Lord is palpable, seeing how Faith and altars have been disposed of in a concerted action lead by Rome.Well, I mean looking out over the devastation, the people (perhaps) in your family that the Wind hasn't listed to blow over (John 3:8 - KJV), and the utter gratuitousness of God's election and mercy. The rather trite and commonplace expression of it is, "there but for the grace of God go I."
Since I found out that Homilies XLVIII and XLIX of the Opus Imperfectum of St John Chrysostom on Matth 24 neatly describe what is happening, I feel eased. What a priviledge to be allowed to be witness of the ultimate prophecy being fulfilled. It appears to feel like having been allowed to touch the wounds of Our Lord.
In the meantime, my fear and trembling with respect to my personal judgment is well and alive.
With respect to the gates of hell, see the second part of Reply #12 of this thread. The Council of Trent says what that means.
The point of this thread is that the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds and a Pope up to the consummation of the age, which by some is understood as the literal last day when Our Lord returns, but rather may be a longer time span, beginning with the time of the great tribulation during which Antichrist reigns.
As an aside: Some Fathers allow for the possibility that Antichrist may be a hosts of heretics usurping the Church.
If the Church no longer has shepherds and teachers it lacks an essential characteristic of the true Church, which means the Church has defected.
Catholic Encyclopedia: "Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm)
If the Church no longer has shepherds and teachers it lacks an essential characteristic of the true Church, which means the Church has defected.
Catholic Encyclopedia: "Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm)
Since in reality only those reach heaven (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm) who die in the state of justification or sanctifying grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm), all these and only these are numbered among the predestined, strictly so called. From this it follows that we must reckon among them also all children who die in baptismal (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) grace, as well as those adults who, after a life stained with sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), are converted on their death-beds. The same is true (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm) of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm) Church of Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm), yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03430b.htm), Protestants (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm) in good faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06642a.htm), schismatics, Jews (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08399a.htm), Mahommedans (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm), and pagans (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11388a.htm). Those fortunate Catholics (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) who at the close of a long life are still clothed in their baptismal (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) innocence, or who after many relapses into mortal sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) persevere till the end, are not indeed predestined more firmly, but are more signally favoured than the last-named categories of persons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm).
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
History confirms that the state of necessity extended not only the duties of bishops, but also their power of jurisdiction. Dom Grea whose attachment to the pope is above all suspicion testifies (De l’Eglise et de sa divine consitution, vol. I) that not only at the beginning of Christianity did the "necessity of the Church and the Gospel" demand that the power of the episcopal order be exercised in all its fullness without jurisdictional limitations, but that in successive ages extraordinary circuмstances required" even more exceptional and more extraordinary manifestations" of episcopal power (ibid., p.218) in order "to apply a remedy to the current necessity of the Christian people" (ibid. and ƒƒ.), for whom there was no hope of aid on the part of the legitimate pastors nor from the Pope. In such circuмstances, in which the common good of the Church is also at stake, the jurisdictional limitations vanish and "that which is universal" in episcopal power "comes directly to the aid of souls" (ibid., p.218):(https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/61-year-sede-vacantism-has-already-become-proximately-heretical-(leads-to-evism)/msg680956/#msg680956)
https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/61-year-sede-vacantism-has-already-become-proximately-heretical-(leads-to-evism)/msg680956/#msg680956 (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/61-year-sede-vacantism-has-already-become-proximately-heretical-(leads-to-evism)/msg680956/#msg680956)
Arnaldo,
And are you one who of those who believe apostolic shepherds have to be "ordinaries" in some see?
Read the attached. Father Cekada kept asking John Lane to quote competent authority which supports the specific proposition that "there must exist one bishop with ordinary jurisdiction, in order for the Church to continue to exist without essential defect." Even using the fallible theologians and manuals, Lane couldn't support that proposition - in my view.
Anyway, there's also some good discussions here on this issue. I'll try to dig them up. But, again, the proposition regarding ordinaries and apostolicity needs to be proven. We often take things as a given . . . when they haven't exactly been "given."
DR
Arnaldo,
There's a good discussion of the issue you raised in the thread from which I lift the following from a post of mine in that thread. In my post, I quote from an old SSPX article cited in a post from Sean Johnson, which presents this strong argument IMHO:
(https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/61-year-sede-vacantism-has-already-become-proximately-heretical-(leads-to-evism)/msg680956/#msg680956)
History confirms that the state of necessity extended not only the duties of bishops, but also their power of jurisdiction. Dom Grea whose attachment to the pope is above all suspicion testifies (De l’Eglise et de sa divine consitution, vol. I) that not only at the beginning of Christianity did the "necessity of the Church and the Gospel" demand that the power of the episcopal order be exercised in all its fullness without jurisdictional limitations, but that in successive ages extraordinary circuмstances required" even more exceptional and more extraordinary manifestations" of episcopal power (ibid., p.218) in order "to apply a remedy to the current necessity of the Christian people" (ibid. and ƒƒ.), for whom there was no hope of aid on the part of the legitimate pastors nor from the Pope. In such circuмstances, in which the common good of the Church is also at stake, the jurisdictional limitations vanish and "that which is universal" in episcopal power "comes directly to the aid of souls" (ibid., p.218):
What the quote means is the limitation of territorial boundaries did not apply in the extraordinary circuмstances. A bishops appointed to a particular area could exercise his ordinary jurisdiction outside of that area. It doesn't mean heretical and schismatic "bishops" or priests who were ordained against the laws of the Church receive jurisdiction.I'm not aware of the apostles being "appointed to a particular area." If you think they were, can you support that?
I am indeed one of those who knows that shepherds and teachers require ordinary jurisdiction. I also know that delegated jurisdiction cannot exist without ordinary jurisdiction, since the former is a delegated participation in the latter. And why would I care what the heretic Fr. Cekada says? He's not even a Catholic.Ok. So you know it all and are here to instruct us - rather than join in the search for the truth in these anomalous times that are rife with contradictions that make the status quo theology (if applied as you apparently apply it) pre-V2 appear ridiculous?
I'm not aware of the apostles being "appointed to a particular area." If you think they were, can you support that?
If that is what it means - bishops appointed to a particular area exercising jurisdiction outside the area in extraordinary circuмstances - the analogy to the apostles (who were not appointed to a "particular area") is simply wrong here. Why don't you say that then, rather than apparently taking the quote as truthful and "explaining" so as to render its analogy inapplicable?
Ok. So you know it all and are here to instruct us - rather than join in the search for the truth in these anomalous times that are rife with contradictions that make the status quo theology (if applied as you apparently apply it) pre-V2 appear ridiculous?
Got it.
It should be known that the Antichrist is bound to come. Every one, therefore, who confesses not that the Son of God came in the flesh and is perfect God and became perfect man, after being God, is Antichrist. 1 John 2:22 But in a peculiar and special sense he who comes at the consummation of the age is called Antichrist.https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/33044.htm
John of Damascus says that Antichrist comes at the consummation of the age. Hence, the Vatican Council does not guarantee shepherds up to the Second Coming of Christ.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/33044.htm
The apostles all had universal jurisdiction and they were all infallible. Their successors were appointed to particular areas, and only the successor of Peter in the See of Rome enjoys infallibility. It may also be true that in the first few centuries ecclesiastic law had not yet developed to the point in which the successors of the Apostles were restricted within territorial boundaries, but instead could legitimately exercise their office anywhere there were faithful without a resident bishop. That would not mean they possessed universal jurisdiction, since universal jurisdiction is of a different species than particular jurisdiction, but it would mean that they could legitimately exercise their particular jurisdiction outside of the their territorial boundaries.
I'm not sure what analogy you are referring to, but I guarantee that if you look up De l’Eglise et de sa divine consitution, vol. I , p. 218, it will be referring to bishops who had been legitimately sent by the Church, and not to bishops who were illicitly consecrated and who had not been canonically sent.
The apostles all had universal jurisdiction and they were all infallible. Their successors were appointed to particular areas, and only the successor of Peter in the See of Rome enjoys infallibility. It may also be true that in the first few centuries ecclesiastic law had not yet developed to the point in which the successors of the Apostles were restricted within territorial boundaries, but instead could legitimately exercise their office anywhere there were faithful without a resident bishop. That would not mean they possessed universal jurisdiction, since universal jurisdiction is of a different species than particular jurisdiction, but it would mean that they could legitimately exercise their particular jurisdiction outside of the their territorial boundaries.
I'm not sure what analogy you are referring to, but I guarantee that if you look up De l’Eglise et de sa divine consitution, vol. I , p. 218, it will be referring to bishops who had been legitimately sent by the Church, and not to bishops who were illicitly consecrated and who had not been canonically sent.
Struthio, just because John Damascus uses the phrase in a general sense to refer to the time of Antichrist, does not mean the Vatican Council used it in the same general sense.
The Church can never be without shepherds and teachers. The Church is essentially an unequal society comprised of those with the authority to teach, govern and sanctify, and those who submit to their authority. If the Church no longer had shepherds and teachers who enjoy the three-fold authority, she would undergo an essential change, and therefore cease to be the Church founded by Christ. IF that were to happen, the gates of hell would have prevailed against the Church. Listen to Popes Pius X and Pius IX:
Pius X, Vehementer Nos. 8, Feb. 11, 1906: “The Scripture teaches us, and the tradition of the Fathers confirms the teaching, that the Church is the mystical body of Christ, ruled by the Pastors and Doctors (I Ephes. iv. II sqq.) - a society of men containing within its own fold chiefs who have full and perfect powers for ruling, teaching and judging (Matt. xxviii. 18-20; xvi. 18, 19; xviii. 17; Tit. ii. 15; 11. Cor. x. 6; xiii. 10. & c.) It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of persons, the Pastors and the flock, those who occupy a rank in the different degrees of the hierarchy and the multitude of the faithful. So distinct are these categories that with the pastoral body alone rests the necessary right and authority for promoting the end of the society and directing all its members towards that end. … the plan of the episcopate and the constitution of the Church have always been found to be so framed that the Church rests on the Bishops, and that all its acts are ruled by them.”
Pius IX, Mortalium Animos, January 6, 1928: “Christ founded His Church as a perfect society, of its nature external and perceptible to the senses, which in the future should carry on the work of the salvation of mankind under one head, with a living teaching authority … The Church thus wondrously instituted could not cease to exist with the death of its Founder and of the Apostles, the pioneers of its propagation; for its mission was to lead all men to salvation, without distinction of time or place: “Going therefore, teach ye all nations.” (Matt. 28:19). In the continual carrying out of this task, will any element of strength and efficiency be wanting to the Church, when Christ Himself is perpetually present with it, according to His promise: ‘Behold, I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.’ (Matt. 28:20). Hence not only must the Church still exist today and continue always to exist, but it must ever be exactly the same as it was in the days of the Apostles. Otherwise we must say—which God forbid—that Christ has failed in His purpose, or that He erred when He asserted of His Church that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it. (Matt. 16:18). … The one Church of Christ is visible to all, and will remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it.”
When the Vatican Council says the Church will possess shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the age, it means until the very end.
Remember, the article is an attempt to justify Archbishop Lefebvre's consecration of bishops without papal mandate.
This thread mainly concerns whether that succession means bishops until the end of time, the final judgment. I think Struthio makes a strong case of "no" which is consistent with the post-V2 world, the facts, and the law, the revelation of God through Scripture, the teachings of the Fathers, and the Magisterium - in the actual words at issue, without assumptions taken.
[...]
I think Struthio has demolished the argument that that's what V1 says by discussing what it says and the use of the terminology.
I just wrote a long reply to each of your points, and lost it all when I tried to post it.I'm very sorry. That has probably happened to most of us, and it stinks.
Thank you, DecemRationis, very much, for letting me know that my efforts were not in vain.And thank you for your efforts . . . and please keep studying, and sharing your thoughts here.
cuм ergo videritis abominationem de solationis, quæ dicta est a Daniele propheta, stantem in loco sancto, qui legit, intelligat. [...] Potest autem simpliciter aut de Antichristo accipi [...]
Orate autem, ut non fiat fuga vestra hieme, vel sabbato. Si de captivitate Jerusalem voluerimus accipere, quando a Tito et Vespasiano capta est, orare debent, ne fuga eorum hieme, vel sabbato fiat; quia in altero duritia frigoris prohibet ad solitudines pergere, et in montibus desertisque latitare : in altero, aut transgressio Legis est, si fugere voluerint, aut mors immineus, si remanse rint. Si autem de consummatione mundi intelligitur, hoc præcipit, ut non refrigescat fides nostra et in
Christum charitas, neque ut otiosi in opere Dei torpeamus virtutum sabbato.
Surgent enim pseudochristi, et pseudo prophetæ, et dabunt signa magna et prodigia; ita ut in errorem inducantur, si fieri potest, etiam electi. Ecce praedixi vobis. Tripliciter, ut ante jam dixi, locus hic disserendus est; aut de tempore obsidionis Romanae ; aut de consummatione mundi ; aut de hæreticorum contra Ecclesiam pugma, et istiusmodi antichristis, qui sub opinione false scientiæ contra Christum dimicant.
[...] explains Matthew 24:15-20 as concerning both the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 and the time of the reign of Antichrist. He positively identifies the consummation of the world as a time span during which we must watch out that our Faith and Our love of the Lord don't grow cold and that we don't slowdown doing good deeds.
[19] And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days.
Vae autem praegnantibus et nutrientibus in illis diebus!
Si autem de consummatione mundi intelligitur, hoc præcipit, ut non refrigescat fides nostra et in Christum charitas, neque ut otiosi in opere Dei torpeamus virtutum sabbato.
Lecture 6aquinas.cc (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~CaMatt.C24.L6)
23. “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25. Behold, I have told you before.
26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Chrys. When the Lord had finished all that related to Jerusalem, He came in the rest to His own coming, and gives them signs thereof, useful not for them only, but for us and for all who shall be after us. As above, the Evangelist said, “In those days came John the Baptist,” (Matt 3:1) not implying immediately after what had gone before, but thirty years after; so here, when He says, “Then,” He passes over the whole interval of time between the taking of Jerusalem and the beginnings of the consummation of the world. Among the signs which He gives of His second coming He certifies them concerning the place, and the deceivers. For it shall not be then as at His former coming, when He appeared in Bethlehem, in a corner of the world, unknown of any; but He shall come openly so as not to need any to announce His approach. Wherefore, “If any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe not.”
Chrys. He speaks here of Antichrist, and of certain his ministers, whom He calls false Christs and false prophets, such as were many in the time of the Apostles; but before Christ’s second coming there shall come others more bitter than the former, “And they shall show great signs and wonders.” (2 Thes 2:9)
Chrys. As He had above described in what guise Antichrist should come, so here He describes how He Himself shall come. For as the lightning needeth none to herald or announce it, but is in an instant of time visible throughout the whole world, even to those that are sitting in their chambers, so the coming of Christ shall be seen every where at once, because of the brightness of His glory. Another sign He adds of His coming, “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” The eagles denote the company of the Angels, Martyrs, and Saints.
aquinas.cc (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~CaMatt.C24.L6)Much appreciated.
In his Homilies on Matthew (not Opus Imperfectum), St. John Chrysostom identifies the beginnings of the consummation of the world with a time during which false prophets try to deceive, if it were possible, even the very elect.
That's one more clear statement of a Church Father, depicting the consummation of the age as a span of time which starts before the second coming of Christ.
In Lecture 6, St. Thomas Aquinas lists more quotes of the same work of St. John Chrysostom:
The word does not denote a termination, but the heading up of events to the appointed climax.
In the original Greek consummation of the age reads συντελεία τοῦ αἰῶνος (syntéleia tou aiōnos).Well I did refer you to the Greek of Daniel 9:27 about 6 pages back. :cowboy:
Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (https://books.google.com.br/books?id=ctWbMD0_p_UC) has the following entry on συντελεία:
(https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/?action=dlattach;attach=14447)
Well I did refer you to the Greek of Daniel 9:27 about 6 pages back. :cowboy:
[3] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=7&l=3-#x) Saying: Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we sign the servants of our God in their foreheads.
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73007.htm (http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73007.htm)
Ezekiel 9:4(http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/31009.htm)
[4] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=31&ch=9&l=4-#x) And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof.
et dixit Dominus ad eum : Transi per mediam civitatem, in medio Jerusalem, et signa thau super frontes virorum gementium et dolentium super cunctis abominationibus quae fiunt in medio ejus.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/31009.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/31009.htm)
[12] (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=6&l=12-#x) And I saw, when he had opened the sixth seal, and behold there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair: and the whole moon became as blood: [13] (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=6&l=13-#x) And the stars from heaven fell upon the earth, as the fig tree casteth its green figs when it is shaken by a great wind: [14] (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=6&l=14-#x) And the heaven departed as a book folded up: and every mountain, and the islands were moved out of their places
In 380 Tyconius was excommunicated from the Donatists by Parmenianus at a council in Carthage. [...] Even so, we have no evidence that he sought communion with the Catholic church in Africa. His reluctance to join the Catholic fold confounded Augustine, who could not understand why a man who wrote with such force against the Donatists would not completely disassociate himself from them. These reservations aside, when Augustine was finishing his own work on biblical hermeneutics, On Christian Teaching (De doctrina christiana), he added a summary of Tyconius's Book of Rules, calling it “quite helpful in penetrating the obscure parts of the divine writings.”
Augustine's endorsement notwithstanding, Tyconius's Book of Rules was not his most significant contribution to the intellectual tradition of Latin Christianity. His commentary on the Apocalypse [In Apocalypsin] shaped the Latin reception and interpretation of the Apocalypse for the next eight hundred years. Gennadius [of Marseilles] wrote that Tyconius “expounded the entire Apocalypse, interpreting nothing in it in a carnal sense, but wholly in a spiritual sense.” Only Victorinus of Poetovio had commented on the Apocalypse in Latin before Tyconius, and his reading is thoroughly chiliastic, or, to use Gennadius's term, “carnal.” In Tyconius's “spiritual” exposition, the apocalyptic visions of John's Revelation were given immediate relevance for the present situation of the church. Latin commentators after Tyconius, most notably Primasius of Hadrumetum, Caesarius of Arles, the venerable Bede, and Beatus of Liébana, would follow his interpretation, citing him at length. Tyconius's Donatist identity was never forgotten, however. Primasius compared his use of Tyconius to picking precious gemstones out of manure. Bede softened the metaphor by describing Tyconius as a rose that blossomed among thorns.
For it is not only in the last earthquake, when many [of the heavenly bodies = faithful] fall from heaven, that some will flee to the mountains, the mercy of the Lord. This always has happened from the passion of the Lord up until now. But at that time it will be greater, when the sign of the “falling away” will show that the day of the Lord is beginning.
Tyconius was an African scholar, a few years older than St. Augustine of Hippo. He published at least four works, only one of which survived intact, the Book of Rules (Liber regularum).
Tyconius commentary on the Apocalypse was reconstructed by Roger Gryson from two fragments and citations of later commentators, published in 2011 in Latin and in French. For an English translation see the attachment.
Further info about Tyconius can be found in the introduction to the English translation of Gryson's reconstruction, and about his influence on Augustine e.g. in Paula Fredriksen's essay Apocalypse and Redemption in Early Christianity, From John of Patmos to Augustine of Hippo (http://www.bu.edu/religion/files/pdf/Apocalypse-and-Redemption-in-Early-Christianity.-From-John-of-Patmos-to-Augustine-of-Hippo.pdf) (most PDF viewers allow to rotate the text).
I don't agree with all details of Tyconius' commentary on the Apocalypse, but his approach overall is the most perspicuous, convincing, and systematic I have so far found.
The reason why I post this in this thread: Commenting on the opening of the sixth seal Tyconius says:
Tyconius sees the day of the Lord beginning with the “falling away”, i.e. the sign given by the Apostle in 2 Thess 2. Hence the day of the Lord begins with and includes the falling away, the revelation of the man of sin, the reign of Antichrist. Maybe that's how and why St. Augustine, too, says that the reign of Antichrist may be included in the events that shall come to pass at the final judgment (see Reply #93 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg664657/#msg664657)).
He called the heathen a third part handed over to fire. Also there is another [third, consisting] of false brothers, who are mixed with the good. The [last] third is the church, which struggles against a twofold evil. This is as when God promised through Zechariah to strike the shepherds and those attached to them throughout the whole world, to scatter the sheep, and to free one but destroy two of the three parts: “Sword,” he says, “arise upon the shepherds and upon the man, my subject, says the Lord almighty. Strike the shepherds and scatter the sheep. And I shall bring my hand upon the shepherds. And it will come about in all the earth, says the Lord, that two parts will be cut off and will perish, and a third part will be left in it. And I shall bring the third part through the fire and refine them as silver is refined. And I shall test them as gold is tested. He will call upon my name, and I shall give heed to him. And I shall say, `You are my people,' and they will say, `Lord, you are my God.'” [Zec 13:7-9] Before the “falling away” [2 Thes 2:3] happens, everyone is considered the people of God. When the “falling away” will have happened, then the third part of the people of God will appear. [22]
[Footnote 22]
Tyconius's comment here provides a clear statement on anthropology, ecclesiology, and eschatology. Humanity comprises three parts. Two parts are in the church, which is bipartite, and a third is outside the church. Two evil parts will be destroyed in the Last Judgment, the worldly part and the left part of the bipartite church; however, at the present time, both parts of the bipartite church are considered “the people of God.” Only in the discessio will God's true people, the right part of the Lord's body, be revealed (cf. Lib. reg. 1.13; 3.29; 4.20.3; 6.4; 7.4, 14).
[7] And when they will finish their testimony, the beast that is rising from the abyss will make war with them. He clearly shows that all these things happen before the last persecution when he says: When they will have finished their testimony. Certainly that to which they testify, they testify to up to the time of the revelation of the beast.
In consummatione mundi, quando orbis redactus fuerit in solitudinem, et obtenebratus sol in ortu suo, et luna splendorem suum non dederit, tanta fient ab Antichristo signa atque portenta, ut iniquitate crescente, refrigescat charitas multorum, ad decipiendos etiam si fieri potest electos Dei (Matth. XXIV).mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2&rumpfid=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Isaiam,%20%20%206,%20%2013&id=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Isaiam,%20%20%206,%20%2013,%20%20%20%20137&level=99&level9798=&satz=137&hilite_id=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Isaiam,%20%20%206,%20%2013,%20%20%20%20137&string=consummat*&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=137#137)
An eclipse is an excellent description of what is happening. XavierSem would have us believe that the Church can eclipse itself or that there is no eclipse at all. But many traditional Catholic commentators have used the eclipse analogy. And that is what it is. The unholy Conciliar church has eclipsed the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church still exists and there are still Catholics who profess the same faith as the saints but it is hidden as it were behind the Conciliar church which has claimed the title of the Catholic Church and stolen all her properties.
Quote from: John 9:4-5I must work the works of him that sent me, whilst it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
« In tempore consummationis effundent virtutem, et furorem eius qui fecit illos placabunt. (1046C) » Tunc enim secundum Evangelicam attestationem, erunt dies illi tribulationes tales, quales non fuerunt ab initio creaturae quam condidit Deus usque nunc, neque fient: « Et nisi breviasset Dominus dies, non fuisset salva omnis caro: sed propter electos, quos elegit, breviabit dies. »Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Rabanus_Maurus_cps2&rumpfid=Rabanus_Maurus_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Ecclesiasticuм,%20%20%208,%20%2019&id=Rabanus_Maurus_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Ecclesiasticuм,%20%20%208,%20%2019,%20%20%20%20%20%208&level=99&level9798=&satz=8&hilite_id=Rabanus_Maurus_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Ecclesiasticuм,%20%20%208,%20%2019,%20%20%20%20%20%208&string=consummatio*&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=8#8)
"In the time of consummation they shall pour out their force: and they shall appease the wrath of him that made them." [Sir 39:34] At that time, the Gospel attests, shall be those days of such tribulations, as were not from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, neither shall be. [Mk 13:19] "And unless the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect which he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." [Mk 13:20]
mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2&rumpfid=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Isaiam,%20%20%206,%20%2013&id=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Isaiam,%20%20%206,%20%2013,%20%20%20%20137&level=99&level9798=&satz=137&hilite_id=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Isaiam,%20%20%206,%20%2013,%20%20%20%20137&string=consummat*&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=137#137)
St. Jerome, commenting on Isaiah 13:12, says that during the consummation of the world the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's splendor, and Antichrist will present his signs and fictions, such that growing wickedness will make freeze the charity of many, to deceive (if possible) even the elect.
St. Jerome clearly believes that the consummation of the world includes the time of the reign of Antichrist, as this quote shows and as his Commentary in Matthew shows (see Reply #137 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg703580/#msg703580)).
Various Church Fathers say that the darkened sun and moon signify "Church in eclipse" (though not necessarily using these words). In his Commentary on Daniel (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm), the wording of Jerome about the Antichrist predecessor Antiochus Epiphanes is "the religion of God suffered an eclipse".
Things started going haywire from the late fourteenth and 15th century or so on, slowly at first, the influx of paganism and esoteric hermeticism during the Renaissance, the relaxation of disciplinary laws regarding usury, the speculations regarding the salvation vel non of those in the New World who had not heard the Gospel, and then the Reformation and the revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries. Also significant is the Church's (and heaven's) response to this: the first Vatican Council, the apparitions at Lourdes, La Salette, Fatima. As to the first things mentioned in this chain, Michael Hoffman has done some very informative and eye-opening work on usury and the influence of hermeticism in the hierarchy of the Church.
[15] And the Lord said to me: Take to thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. [16] For behold I will raise up a shepherd in the land, who shall not visit what is forsaken, nor seek what is scattered, nor heal what is broken, nor nourish that which standeth, and he shall eat the flesh of the fat ones, and break their hoofs.
Pastor stultus, et imperitus, haud dubium quin Antichristus sit; qui in consummatione mundi dicitur esse venturus, et qualis venturus sit, indicatur.
The foolish and unversed shepherd, without a doubt is Antichrist who is said to come in the consummation of the world. And the kind of his coming is indicated.
Pastor stultus et imperitus Antichristus est, qui in consummatione saeculi dicitur esse venturus.
Pastor stultus et imperitus Antichristus est, qui in consummatione saeculi dicitur esse venturus.
Sive ut alius interpretatus est; "in ipso enim erit consummatio". Ab hoc loco Iudaei dici de Antichristo putant, quod post Iuliani parvum auxilium surrecturus sit rex qui faciat iuxta voluntatem suam, et elevetur contra omne quod dicitur deus, et adversum Deum deorum loquatur magnifica: ita ut sedeat in templo Dei, et seipsum faciat Deum, et dirigatur voluntas eius, donec compleatur ira Dei, quia in ipso erit consummatio. Quod quidem et nos de Antichristo intelligimus. Porphyrius autem et caeteri qui sequuntur eum, de Antiocho Epiphane dici arbitrantur [...]Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2&rumpfid=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Danielem,%20%20%20%20%20p2&id=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Danielem,%20%20%20%20%20p2,%20%20%201131&level=99&level9798=&satz=1131&hilite_id=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Danielem,%20%20%20%20%20p2,%20%20%201131&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=1131#1131)
Or else, as another has translated it: "for in him shall be the consummation." The Jews believe that this passage has reference to the Antichrist, alleging that after the small help of Julian a king is going to rise up who shall do according to his own will and shall lift himself up against all that is called god, and shall speak arrogant words against the God of gods. He shall act in such a way as to sit in the Temple of God and shall make himself out to be God, and his will shall be prospered [dirigatur: guided, directed] until the wrath of God is fulfilled, for in him the consummation will take place. We too understand this to refer to the Antichrist. But Porphyry and the others who follow his lead suppose the reference to be to Antiochus Epiphanes [...]tertullian.org (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm)
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest in the beast: these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her with fire.
Et decem cornua, quae vidisti in bestia : hi odient fornicariam, et desolatam facient illam, et nudam, et carnes ejus manducabunt, et ipsam igni concremabunt.
[17] For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.
Deus enim dedit in corda eorum ut faciant quod placitum est illi : ut dent regnum suum bestiae donec consummentur verba Dei.
VERS. 17. - « Descendit in campos. » Damascus potus sanguinis interpretatur, in qua principes gentium exprimuntur, who thirst for the blood of the faithful: qui sitiunt sanguinem fidelium: maxime in tempore messis, id est, in consummatione saeculi debacchante per latitudinem orbis furore Antichristi.Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Anselmus_Laudunensis_et_schola_Glossa_ordina_cps2&rumpfid=Anselmus_Laudunensis_et_schola_Glossa_ordina_cps2,%20Liber%20Iudith,%20%20%202&id=Anselmus_Laudunensis_et_schola_Glossa_ordina_cps2,%20Liber%20Iudith,%20%20%202,%20%20%20%20%2011&level=99&level9798=&satz=11&hilite_id=Anselmus_Laudunensis_et_schola_Glossa_ordina_cps2,%20Liber%20Iudith,%20%20%202,%20%20%20%20%2011&string=consummatio*!Antichrist*&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=11#11)
VERSE 17. - "went down into the plains." Damascus is understood to be a drinking of blood, in which the princes of the Gentiles are pictured, who thirst for the blood of the faithful: above all in the time of the harvest, that is, in the consummation of the age when the madness of Antichrist is raging all over the world.
[17] And after these things he went down into the plains of Damascus in the days of the harvest, and he set all the corn on fire, and he caused all the trees and vineyards to be cut down.
Si autem haec omnia de consummatione saeculi intelligantur, mystice accipienda sunt, ut ita dicamus: Tunc qui sunt in Iudaea, hoc est in confessione verae fidei sunt, fugiant ad montes, hoc est culmen virtutum ascendant, et qui super tectum est, id est qui carnem, qua anima tegitur, superavit, non descendat ad infimos actus pristinae conversationis, neque desideria carnis repetat. Et qui in agro est, id est qui operatur in Ecclesia sicut Paulus plantando, et Apollo rigando, non revertatur tollere tunicam suam, id est non repetat saecularia, quibus se nudaverat.Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Anselmus_Laudunensis_cps2&rumpfid=Anselmus_Laudunensis_cps2,%20Ennarrationes%20in%20Matthaeum,%20%2024&id=Anselmus_Laudunensis_cps2,%20Ennarrationes%20in%20Matthaeum,%20%2024,%20%20%20%20%2068&level=99&level9798=&satz=68&hilite_id=Anselmus_Laudunensis_cps2,%20Ennarrationes%20in%20Matthaeum,%20%2024,%20%20%20%20%2068&string=Iudaea!confessione!fidei!Fugiant!montes&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=68#68)
But if we understand this of the consummation of the age, it's to be taken mystically, in the following way: Then they who are in Judea, that is confessing the true faith, flee to the mountains, that is climb to the top of virtue, and he who is on the housetop, that is who rose above the flesh which is covered by the soul, should not come down to the low acts of the early conversion, and not fall again into the desires of the flesh. And he who is on the field, that is who is planting in the Church like Paul and irrigating like Apollo, should not return to take his coat, that is not return to doing worldly things, making himself naked.
[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.
Magnas autem tribulationes in tempore apostolorum et martyrum sustinuit, et in saeculi consummatione passura est. « Erit enim tunc tribulatio talis, qualis non fuit, neque fiet (Matth. XXIV, 21) . »Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Bruno_Astensis_cps2&rumpfid=Bruno_Astensis_cps2,%20Expositio%20in%20Psalmos,%20%20%204&id=Bruno_Astensis_cps2,%20Expositio%20in%20Psalmos,%20%20%204,%20%20%20%20%20%205&level=99&level9798=&satz=5&hilite_id=Bruno_Astensis_cps2,%20Expositio%20in%20Psalmos,%20%20%204,%20%20%20%20%20%205&string=consummatio*!tribulatio*&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=5#5)
But she [the Church] suffered great tribulations in the time of the Apostles und Martyrs, and she will have to endure such in the consummation of the age. "For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be." (Mt 24:21)
Huius ingenii superfluum est indicem texere, cuм sole clariora sint eius opera.
It is unnecessary to catalogue the works of his genius, since they are more conspicuous than the sun.
Quam eloquens sanctus Cyprianus, quam fulgens framea eius in litteris eius apparuit.
How eloquent Saint Cyprian was, how radiant his sword appears in his letters.
Desiderasti, Fortunate carissime, ut quoniam pressurarum et persecutionum pondus incuмbit et in fine adque in consummatione mundi antichristi tempus infestum adpropinquare iam coepit, ad praeparandas et corroborandas fratrum mentes de diuinis scripturis hortamenta conponerem quibus milites Christi ad spiritale et caeleste certamen animarem.Scriptores Ecclesiastici, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19&rumpfid=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19,%20Ad%20Fortunatum%20%5BCSEL%5D,%20%20%201,%20%20%201&id=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19,%20Ad%20Fortunatum%20%5BCSEL%5D,%20%20%201,%20%20%201,%20%20%20%20%20%202&level=99&level9798=&satz=2&hilite_id=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19,%20Ad%20Fortunatum%20%5BCSEL%5D,%20%20%201,%20%20%201,%20%20%20%20%20%202&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=2#2)
You have desired, beloved Fortunatus, that since the burden of pressures and persecutions is lying heavy upon us, and the hostile time of Antichrist in the end and consummation of the world is already beginning to draw near, I would collect from the divine Scriptures some exhortations for preparing and strengthening the minds of the brethren, to animate the soldiers of Christ for the heavenly and spiritual contest.
Saint and Martyr Cyprian, 3rd century bishop of Carthage, was the pre-eminent Latin writer of the Church before St. Jerome and St. Augustine. Here what these two great Church Fathers said about St. Cyprian:There are implications to this thread in other areas, and all relate to a critical definition of terms, which as Aristotle and St. Thomas I think agree is a necessary beginning before there can be any reliable discourse.
Cyprian believes that the time of Antichrist is part of the consummation of the world. This is manifested by the opening paragraph of a letter addressed to Fortunatus:
Scriptores Ecclesiastici, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19&rumpfid=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19,%20Ad%20Fortunatum%20%5BCSEL%5D,%20%20%201,%20%20%201&id=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19,%20Ad%20Fortunatum%20%5BCSEL%5D,%20%20%201,%20%20%201,%20%20%20%20%20%202&level=99&level9798=&satz=2&hilite_id=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19,%20Ad%20Fortunatum%20%5BCSEL%5D,%20%20%201,%20%20%201,%20%20%20%20%20%202&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=2#2)
There are implications to this thread in other areas, and all relate to a critical definition of terms, which as Aristotle and St. Thomas I think agree is a necessary beginning before there can be any reliable discourse.
We see this all over the place: what is "necessity" when it comes to the sacrament of baptism, or when it comes to the Church and salvation; what does the "infallibility" or "indefectibility" of the Church mean, and when is the Magisterium infallible or indefectible (if it is)? My own view is that the thought and definitions of the theologians, and even the teaching Church (at least most definitely in instances below the level of the universal, ordinary Magisterium certainly, even in the "authentic" Magisterium - witness Pope Francis) created problems in this regard that lead to and inspired the errors of Vatican II.
Dei Filius et generis humani Redemptor Dominus Noster Iesus Christus, ad Patrem caelestem rediturus, cuм Ecclesia sua in terris militante, omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi futurum se esse promisit.
The Son of God, redeemer of the human race, Our Lord Jesus Christ, when about to return to his heavenly Father, promised that he would be with his church militant upon earth all days even to the future consummation of the age.
Pastor aeternus [...] ita in Ecclesia sua Pastores et Doctores usque ad consummationem saeculi esse voluit.
The eternal shepherd [...] in like manner it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the age.
As far as I can see, Indefectibility of the Church and Infallibility of the Church are concepts of theologians and not teachings of the Magisterium proposed to be believed by the faithful. Each theologian gives his own definition of these/such terms and then quotes the Magisterium, Fathers, etc. to convince his readers. There are related propositions we have to believe, but it's not easy to find them all.Yes, excellent observations.
E.g. Ludwig Ott: Die Kirche ist indefektibel, d.h. sie bleibt bis zum Ende der Welt als die von Christus gestiftete Heilsanstalt bestehen. (The Church is indefectible, i.e. she shall persist until to the end of the world as the salvific institution founded by Christ.) Then he qualifies this as Sententia certa. This "definition" is then wrapped into a lot of text stating various seemingly related propositions, garnished with quotes of Councils, Popes, Fathers etc.
Theology is not mathematics, and even in mathematics many terms include the name of a mathematician to make sure the reader knows how the term is defined. Let's speak about Hilbert space or Ott indefectibility.
Now, Ott doesn't even care to mention what "until to the end of the world" exactly means. His first quote is taken from the Vatican Council, but he neither quotes the first paragraph of Dei filius nor of Pastor aeternus. Later on though, he does quote Mt 28:20 (consummation of the age translated to German as Ende der Welt).
By quoting Mt 28:20, until the consummation of the age, the Vatican Council redirects the readers to scripture and the exegesis of the Fathers. Anyone praying the Divine Office (at the time of the Vatican Council), read the exegesis of St. Jerome on Matthew 24:15-35 once a year on the last Sunday after Pentecost; Jerome equates the consummation of the age and the abomination of desolation and the reign of Antichrist.
There must be a reason, why theologians of more recent times seem unaware of the subtleties of the term consummation of the age used right at the beginning of Dei Filius and Pastor aeternus. I can only guess: The Apostle Paul speaks about an operation of error sent by God to lead many to the slaughterhouse of Antichrist. CI user Incredulous has it in his signature: in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer ("deathbed warning of St. Francis of Assisi"). Some of the Old Testament prophets announce that God will send a pastor stultus, a foolhardy shepherd, who will slaughter and sell the flock. Or alternatively (for vegans) at harvest time the fields are burnt down, the vines and olive trees are cut down. The bad shepherd or grower is identified as Antichrist by the Fathers. God's sword is inebriated in heaven (apostate bishops of the Church) it shall come down upon the people of my slaughter unto judgment (Is 34:5). If God sends the operation of error to ensure that those sheep who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity don't flee from Juda, it may be convenient that the manuals of theologians do not tell all the details about the consummation of the age. But as I said, that's just a guess.
CHAPTER XXVI. Concerning the Antichrist.docuмentacatholicaomnia.eu (https://www.docuмentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0675-0749,_Ioannes_Damascenus,_De_Fide_Orthodoxa,_EN.pdf)
It should be known that the Antichrist is bound to come. Every one, therefore, who confesses not that the Son of God came in the flesh and is perfect God and became perfect man, after being God, is Antichrist. But in a peculiar and special sense he who comes at the consummation of the age is called Antichrist.
Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?
"Gates of Hell"? Does that not strike any bells?
So too, He said, when He stood before Pilate, “Thou shouldst not have any power against Me, unless it were given thee from above.” [62] It was the will of God; it was the concession of the Father that Pilate had power over His incarnate Son. Again, He said, “Thinkest thou that I cannot ask My Father, and He will give Me presently more than twelve legions of angels? how then shall the Scripture be fulfilled?” [63] In like manner with His Church. Until the hour is come when the barrier shall, by the Divine will, be taken out of the way, no one has power to lay a hand upon it. The gates of hell may war against it; they may strive and wrestle, as they struggle now, with the Vicar of our Lord; but no one has the power to move Him one step, until the hour shall come when the Son of God shall permit, for a time, the powers of evil to prevail. That He will permit it for a time stands in the book of prophecy. When the hindrance is taken away, the man of sin will be revealed; then will come the persecution of three years and a half, short, but terrible, during which the Church of God will return into its state of suffering, as in the beginning; and the imperishable Church of God, by its inextinguishable life derived from the pierced side of Jesus, which for three hundred years lived on through blood, will live on still through the fires of the times of Antichrist.
Manning, Archbishop Henry. The Present Crisis of the Holy See . Desert Will Flower iPress. Kindle Edition
Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?
Pastor aeternus [...]; ita in Ecclesia sua Pastores et Doctores usque ad consummationem saeculi esse voluit.
"Gates of Hell"? Does that not strike any bells?
Quod Ecclesia a perfectione sua fulget in decore justitiae usque ad tempus Antichristi.clerus.org (http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/it/kn4.htm)
Because by her perfection the Church sparkles in the adornment of justice up to the time of Antichrist.
By the way, I haven't seen you since page 7. What is your comment on all the quotes I posted of the Fathers and Doctors and Saints and Bishops of the Church? Do you retract your accusation against me that I "twist Our Lord's words" (Reply #90) or do you accuse them, too?You made several posts in a row ignoring everything I was saying and calling me an alcoholic, even telling me to stop responding, and now you're mad that I did?
And concerning the topic, forlorn, do you accuse the Fathers and Doctors and Saints and Bishops of the Church to "twist Our Lord's words", too?You can waddle on to page 6 and 7 to read what I said.
I answered your question: "Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?"
Please answer mine!
And when the sun was setting, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a great and darksome horror seized upon him.
cuмque sol occuмberet, sopor irruit super Abram, et horror magnus et tenebrosus invasit eum.
The setting of the sun signifies the end of the age, when due to Antichrist there shall be gloomy trembling, that is persecution or confusion.
Solis occubitus finem saeculi significat, quando per Antichristum tenebrosus horror, id est persecutio vel perturbatio futura est.
Erit etiam in fine saeculi tribulatio tempore Antichristi, qualis nunquam antea fuit.Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Augustinus_Hipponensis_cps2&rumpfid=Augustinus_Hipponensis_cps2,%20De%20civitate%20Dei,%20%2021,%20%2026,%20%20%204&id=Augustinus_Hipponensis_cps2,%20De%20civitate%20Dei,%20%2021,%20%2026,%20%20%204,%20%20%20%20%20%204&level=99&level9798=&satz=4&hilite_id=Augustinus_Hipponensis_cps2,%20De%20civitate%20Dei,%20%2021,%20%2026,%20%20%204,%20%20%20%20%20%204&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=4#4)
Moreover, in the end of the age there shall be tribulation during the time of Antichrist, such as has never before been.
Antichristus qui in fine saeculi regnaturus est, ...Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Beda_cps2&rumpfid=Beda_cps2,%20Explanatio%20Apocalypsis,%20%20%203,%20%2017&id=Beda_cps2,%20Explanatio%20Apocalypsis,%20%20%203,%20%2017,%20%20%20%20%2042&level=99&level9798=&satz=42&hilite_id=Beda_cps2,%20Explanatio%20Apocalypsis,%20%20%203,%20%2017,%20%20%20%20%2042&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=42#42)
Antichrist, who is to reign in the end of the age, ...
Adventum vero Antichristi, finem saeculi extremi, discrimen iudicii et aeternam bonorum gloriam, poenamque reproborum, concordi utrumque Testamentum veritate profatur.
The actual arrival of Antichrist, at the very end of the age, the judgment separating, the eternal glory of the good and the punishment of the reprobate, is truely spelled out in both testaments concordantly.
Descripta persecutione quae erit tempore Antichristi in Ecclesia, ponit econtra auxilium quod imminet eis, scilicet Christum.
Having described the persecution which will happen during the time of Antichrist in the Church, he [John] puts in contrast the help which is imminent, which of course is Christ.
[1] And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven [...]
[2] And he had in his hand a little book open [...]
[3] And he cried with a loud voice as when a lion roareth. And when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
[4] And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Seal up the things which the seven thunders have spoken; and write them not.
Hic per suam personam ubi scribere prohibetur, significat nobis quod tempore Antichristi praedicatio cessabit.Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xanfang.php?tabelle=Anselmus_Laudunensis_cps2&corpus=2&allow_download=0&lang=0)
Nahum 1[7] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=39&ch=1&l=7-#x) The Lord is good and giveth strength in the day of trouble: and knoweth them that hope in him.
Bonus Dominus, et confortans in die tribulationis, et sciens sperantes in se.[8] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=39&ch=1&l=8-#x) But with a flood that passeth by, he will make an utter end of the place thereof: and darkness shall pursue his enemies.
Et in diluvio praetereunte consummationem faciet loci ejus, et inimicos ejus persequentur tenebrae.[9] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=39&ch=1&l=9-#x) What do ye devise against the Lord? he will make an utter end: there shall not rise a double affliction.
Quid cogitatis contra Dominum? Consummationem ipse faciet : non consurget duplex tribulatio,[10] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=39&ch=1&l=10-#x) For as thorns embrace one another: so while they are feasting and drinking together, they shall be consumed as stubble that is fully dry.
quia sicut spinae se invicem complectuntur, sic convivium eorum pariter potantium; consumentur quasi stipula ariditate plena.[11] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=39&ch=1&l=11-#x) Out of thee shall come forth one that imagineth evil against the Lord, contriving treachery in his mind.
Ex te exibit cogitans contra Dominum malitiam, mente pertractans praevaricationem.http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/39001.htm
Just curious if you have ever read anything regarding any comment Jerome may have made on the above passage?
Diem autem tribulationis secundum anagogén, diem intelligamus iudicii, de quo scripsit Isaias: Ecce dies Domini insanabilis venit furoris et irae, ponere orbem terrae desertum, et peccatores perdere ex eo (Isai. XIII, 9)
Anagogically, we understand that the day of tribulation is Judgment Day, about which Isaiah wrote: Behold, the day of the Lord shall come, a [cruel] day [and full of indignation and] of wrath, and fury, to lay the land desolate, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (Is 13:9)
Chapter 21: From the vision of Revelation chs.17 and following the new error about Antichrist is refuted rather than confirmed.aristotelophile.com (https://www.aristotelophile.com/current.htm)
[...]
8. In whatever way, then, that prophecy be understood, therefrom can it not only not be collected that Rome is already now antichristian, but also neither can it with any likelihood be inferred that the Church, which is now at Rome, either is already, or will at some time be, antichristian and infidel, because although many citizens and members of it should defect from the faith, they come to be by that very fact outside the Church, which always remains faithful. And much less does it follow that the head of the true Church is or will ever be Antichrist, because although the city is thoroughly destroyed because of apostasy, or for any other cause whatever, the head and rock of the Church could stand firm, or reside elsewhere, or go into hiding. Nay, although God should permit the person of some Pontiff in those times to fall and to yield to the tyrants by professing errors, not for that reason would the Pontiff, as he is Pontiff, fall, nor would the Church fall, but, after deposing him, the Church could for itself create a Pontiff. Which is said for exaggeration and for more explaining the thing; for it is more credible that God will not permit it, especially during so great a tribulation and oppression of the Church.
Finally, the Holy Fathers teach unanimously not only that heretics are outside of the Church, but also that they are "ipso facto" deprived of all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and dignity. St. Cyprian (lib. 2, epist. 6) says: 'We affirm that absolutely no heretic or schismatic has any power or right'; and he also teaches (lib. 2, epist. 1) that the heretics who return to the Church must be received as laymen, even though they have been formerly priests or bishops in the Church. St. Optatus (lib. 1 cont. Parmen.) teaches that heretics and schismatics cannot have the keys of the kingdom of heaven, nor bind nor loose. St. Ambrose (lib. 1 de poenit., ca. 2), St. Augustine (in Enchir., cap 65), St. Jerome (lib. cont. Lucifer.) teach the same.strobertbellarmine.net (http://strobertbellarmine.net/bellarm.htm)
ultramontes.pl (http://www.ultramontes.pl/de_antichristo.htm)INSTITUTIONESTHEOLOGIAE DOGMATICAEP. JOANNES HERRMANNCONGR. SS. REDEMPTORIS––––––––––TRACTATUS DECIMUS SEXTUSDE NOVISSIMIS––––––––CAPUT IIIDe Antichristo
Antichristus est iste homo peccati et filius perditionis, qui in fine mundi Christo ejusque regno adversabitur.
Vocatur per antonomasiam Antichristus, seu Christi adversarius, quia, licet jam multi fuerint in mundo multique sint adhuc antichristi, secundum illud (I. Joan., II, 18): «Antichristus venit, et nunc antichristi multi facti sunt», hi tamen omnes velut typi et umbra illius sunt, qui in consummatione saeculi ad gentes seducendas venturus est, et qui caput et princeps est omnium Christi inimicorum.
Antichrist is that man of sin and son of perdition, who at the end of the world will oppose Christ and his reign.
He is called Antichrist or opponent of Christ by antonomasia, because many will be in the world and many have been so far, according to (1 John 2:18): «Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists», although all these are rather like types or shadows of the one who will come at the consummation of the age to seduce the nations, and who is the head and leader of all enemies of Christ.
Caput XIX: Quid apostolus Paulus Thessalonicensibus scripserit de manifestatione Antichristi, cuius tempus dies domini subsequetur.bkv.unifr.ch (https://bkv.unifr.ch/works/9/versions/21/divisions/94870)
[...]
quod tamen eum dixisse non dubium est: non ueniet ad uiuos et mortuos iudicandos Christus, nisi prius uenerit ad seducendos in anima mortuos aduersarius eius Antichristus; quamuis ad occultum iam iudicium dei pertineat, quod ab illo seducentur. [...] tunc enim soluetur satanas et per illum Antichristum in omni sua uirtute mirabiliter quidem, sed mendaciter operabitur. [...] seducentur eis signis atque prodigiis, qui seduci merebuntur, pro eo quod dilectionem, inquit, ueritatis non receperunt, ut salui fierent. nec dubitauit apostolus addere ac dicere: ideo mittet illis deus operationem erroris ut credant mendacio. deus enim mittet, quia deus diabolum facere ista permittet, iusto ipse iudicio, quamuis faciat ille iniquo malignoque consilio: ut iudicentur, inquit, omnes, qui non crediderunt ueritati, sed consenserunt iniquitati. proinde iudicati seducentur et seducti iudicabuntur. sed iudicati seducentur illis iudiciis dei occulte iustis, iuste occultis, quibus ab initio peccati rationalis creaturae numquam iudicare cessauit; seducti autem iudicabuntur nouissimo manifestoque iudicio per Christum Iesum, iustissime iudicaturum, iniustissime iudicatum.
Chapter 19, What the Apostle Paul wrote to the Thessalonians about the manifestation of Antichrist, whose time is followed by the Day of the Lord
[...]
But without a doubt he [the Apostle Paul] clearly said: Christ will not come to judge the quick and the dead, unless his adversary Antichrist first come to seduce those who are dead in soul; and the fact that they will be seduced by him, already is part of the secret judgment of God. [...] For then shall Satan be loosed, and by him Antichrist shall work with wonderful lying power. [...] there shall be such signs and wonders as shall seduce those who shall deserve to be seduced, "because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved." Neither did the apostle scruple to go on to say, "For this cause God shall send upon them the working of error that they should believe a lie." For God shall send, because God shall permit the devil to do these things, the permission being by His own just judgment, though the doing of them is in pursuance of the devil's unrighteous and malignant purpose, "that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Therefore, being judged, they shall be seduced, and, being seduced, they shall be judged. But, being judged, they shall be seduced by those secretly just and justly secret judgments of God, with which He has never ceased to judge since the first sin of the rational creatures; and, being seduced, they shall be judged in that last and manifest judgment administered by Jesus Christ, who was Himself most unjustly judged and shall most justly judge.
In chapter 19 of book 20 of The City of God St. Augustine says that (the last) Antichrist including "his whole body" may sit (not "in", but rather) "as the temple of God", may sit as the Church of God as if he were the Church of God. (think impostor Conciliar Sect; see Reply #106 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg702473/#msg702473)) He also quotes 1 John 2:19 "[many Antichrists] went out from us."Struthio,
In chapter 30 of the same book, Augustine says that the time of Antichrist may be seen as part of the last judgment (see Reply #93 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg664657/#msg664657)).
To better understand the idea of a judgment day including the time of Antichrist (or in other words the time of tribulation), here more from chapter 19:
bkv.unifr.ch (https://bkv.unifr.ch/works/9/versions/21/divisions/94870)
In this manner, the first part of the "last judgment" is not different from the great many other "secret judgments" with which Our Lord has been continuously judging since the creation of man. The first part of the "last judgment" happens "in this world", while the second part will happen after His Second Coming.
In chapter 19 of book 20 of The City of God St. Augustine says that (the last) Antichrist including "his whole body" may sit (not "in", but rather) "as the temple of God", may sit as the Church of God as if he were the Church of God. (think impostor Conciliar Sect; see Reply #106 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg702473/#msg702473)) He also quotes 1 John 2:19 "[many Antichrists] went out from us."Big John's a Coming!
In chapter 30 of the same book, Augustine says that the time of Antichrist may be seen as part of the last judgment (see Reply #93 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg664657/#msg664657)).
To better understand the idea of a judgment day including the time of Antichrist (or in other words the time of tribulation), here more from chapter 19:
bkv.unifr.ch (https://bkv.unifr.ch/works/9/versions/21/divisions/94870)
In this manner, the first part of the "last judgment" is not different from the great many other "secret judgments" with which Our Lord has been continuously judging since the creation of man. The first part of the "last judgment" happens "in this world", while the second part will happen after His Second Coming.
If this Conciliar church apostasy is not The Great Apostasy, I'd hate to see what the great apostasy is.
The other huge key is Daniel 7:25 - Antichrist changing laws and times - if that's not the New Mass, new sacraments etc., I don't know what is.
". . .And he shall crush the saints of the Most High, and will suppose himself to be able to alter times and laws." The Antichrist will wage war against the saints and will overcome them; and he shall exalt himself to such a height of arrogance (A) as to attempt changing the very laws of God and the sacred rites as well. He will also lift himself up against all that is called God, subjecting all religion to his own authority.
Sure is. So says St. Jerome:
tertullian.org (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm)
Well, according to the teaching of Bishop Sanborn, the "end of time" must refer to 1965, or shortly thereafter.Seems like we're in the middle of the great apostasy, I think most of Europe is down to 10-20% of people nominally Catholic? If this is not the great apostasy over the last 70 years I shudder to think what that would look like. I think at this point things will just continue to go from bad to worse and then sometime in the next 10-100 years the man of sin will show up. That's just my speculation though.
Sirach 12
[10] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=26&ch=12&l=10-#x) Never trust thy enemy: for as a brass pot his wickedness rusteth:
Non credas inimico tuo in aeternum : sicut enim aeramentum aeruginat nequitia illius :[11] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=26&ch=12&l=11-#x) Though he humble himself and go crouching, yet take good heed and beware of him.
et si humiliatus vadat curvus, adjice animum tuum, et custodi te ab illo.[12] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=26&ch=12&l=12-#x) Set him not by thee, neither let him sit on thy right hand, lest he turn into thy place, and seek to take thy seat: and at the last thou acknowledge my words, and be pricked with my sayings.
Non statuas illum penes te, nec sedeat ad dexteram tuam, ne forte conversus in locuм tuum, inquirat cathedram tuam, et in novissimo agnosces verba mea, et in sermonibus meis stimuleris.
2 Thessalonians 2[3] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=3-#x) Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Ne quis vos seducat ullo modo : quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum, et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis,[4] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=4-#x) Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God.
qui adversatur, et extollitur supra omne, quod dicitur Deus, aut quod colitur, ita ut in templo Dei sedeat ostendens se tamquam sit Deus.
By quoting Mt 28:20, until the consummation of the age, the Vatican Council redirects the readers to scripture and the exegesis of the Fathers. Anyone praying the Divine Office (at the time of the Vatican Council), read the exegesis of St. Jerome on Matthew 24:15-35 once a year on the last Sunday after Pentecost; Jerome equates the consummation of the age and the abomination of desolation and the reign of Antichrist.
https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg712898/#msg712898
In his Commentaria in Ecclesiasticuм Blessed Rabanus Maurus Magnentius, Archbishop of Mainz and one of the most prominent teachers of the Carolingian age, called Praeceptor Germaniae, author of the hymn Veni Creator Spiritus, says that the false friends who "take thy seat" in Sirach 12:12 are to be understood as heretics, whose doctrine is full of errors and wickedness, crawling like a cancer (sideways). (mlat.uzh.ch (Patrologia Latina), Rabanus Maurus (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Rabanus_Maurus_cps2&rumpfid=Rabanus_Maurus_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Ecclesiasticuм,%20%20%203,%20%20%207&id=Rabanus_Maurus_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Ecclesiasticuм,%20%20%203,%20%20%207,%20%20%20%20%2011&level=99&level9798=&satz=11&hilite_id=Rabanus_Maurus_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Ecclesiasticuм,%20%20%203,%20%20%207,%20%20%20%20%2011&string=inquirat!cathedram&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=11#11))
Apud Esaiam: Et erunt vobis hi omnes sermones sicut sermones libri qui signatus est: quem si dederis homini scienti litteras ad legendum, dicet: Non possum legere, Signatus est enim. (0682B) Sed in illa die audient surdi sermones libri ; et qui in tenebris et qui in nebula sunt, oculi caecorum videbunt (Isa. XXIX, 11, 18) .Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps2&rumpfid=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps2,%20Testimonia%20adversus%20Iudaeos,%20%20%201,%20%20%204&id=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps2,%20Testimonia%20adversus%20Iudaeos,%20%20%201,%20%20%204,%20%20%20%20%20%202&level=99&level9798=&satz=2&hilite_id=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps2,%20Testimonia%20adversus%20Iudaeos,%20%20%201,%20%20%204,%20%20%20%20%20%202&string=consummatio*!noviss*&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=2#2)
Item apud Hieremiam: In novissimo dierum cognoscetis ea (Hier. XXIII, 20).
Item apud Danielem: Muni sermones et signa librum usque ad tempus consummationis, quoad discant multi, et impleatur agnitio ; quoniam cuм fiet dispersio, cognoscent omnia haec (Dan. XII, 4, 7) .
[11] And the vision of all shall be unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which when they shall deliver to one that is learned, they shall say: Read this: and he shall answer: I cannot, for it is sealed.
Et erit vobis visio omnium sicut verba libri signati, quem cuм dederint scienti litteras, dicent : Lege istum : et respondebit : Non possum, signatus est enim.
[...]
[18] And in that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book, and out of darkness and obscurity the eyes of the blind shall see.
Et audient in die illa surdi verba libri, et de tenebris et caligine oculi caecorum videbunt.
[20] The wrath of the Lord shall not return till he execute it, and till he accomplish the thought of his heart: in the latter days you shall understand his counsel.
Non revertetur furor Domini, usque dum faciat et usque dum compleat cogitationem cordis sui : in novissimis diebus intelligetis consilium ejus.
[4] But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time appointed: many shall pass over, and knowledge shall be manifold.
Tu autem Daniel, claude sermones, et signa librum usque ad tempus statutum : plurimi pertransibunt, et multiplex erit scientia.
[10] [...] none of the wicked shall understand, but the learned shall understand.
[...] neque intelligent omnes impii : porro docti intelligent.
Muni sermones et signa librum usque ad tempus consummationis, quoad discant multi, et impleatur agnitio ; quoniam cuм fiet dispersio, cognoscent omnia haec (Dan. XII, 4, 7) .
Guard the words and seal the book until the time of the consummation, until then many may learn and knowledge may increase; whereas when the scattering will happen, they will understand all these things.
He decreed that that same sacrifice which He performed is to redeem the whole human race from the yoke of sin to reconcile all things in heaven and earth, and to remain until the consummation of the world.Amantissimi Redemptoris, papalencyclicals.net (https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9amant1.htm)
"... And he shall crush the saints of the Most High, and will suppose himself to be able to alter times and laws." The Antichrist will wage war against the saints and will overcome them; and he shall exalt himself to such a height of arrogance as to attempt changing the very laws of God and the sacred rites as well. He will also lift himself up against all that is called God, subjecting all religion to his own authority.tertullian.org (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm)
By all means, I think these [prophetic developments] are better understood with regard to the Church, lest the Lord Jesus, with His second coming drawing near, seem to have foretold as being of great consequence [developments] that had been accustomed to happen to this world even before His first coming, and [lest] we be laughed at by those who have read in the history of nations more and much greater things than the ones at which we tremble as the final and most important of all. For the Church is the sun and the moon and the stars, to which it was said, “fair as the moon, bright as the sun” (Canticle of Canticles 6:9). In this world our Joseph [=son of Jacob and Rachel] is worshipped [=venerated] by the [moon], as though in Egypt [when he had been] lifted up on high from the lowliest [condition]. For the Joseph’s mother, who died before Jacob had come to his son, was certainly unable to worship him, in order that the truth of the prophetic dream (Genesis 37:9), to be fulfilled with Christ the Lord, might be preserved. For when “the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved,” just as this passage was recorded by the other two Evangelists (Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24), the Church will not be perceptible at that time, with the ungodly persecutors raging beyond measure and with all fear laid aside as though the world’s good fortune were smiling approvingly, while they say, “Peace and security” [1 Thessalonians 5:3]. Then the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved, because many who seemed to shine brightly with grace will yield to the persecutors and will fall, and some of the most valiant faithful will be confounded. However, for this reason, according to Matthew and Mark it is said that this will take place after the tribulation of those days, not because these things will happen after that entire persecution has been brought to an end, but because the tribulation will come before, in order that certain people’s defection [from the faith] may follow. And because it will come to pass in such a way through all those days, therefore after the tribulation of those days, but all the same it will nonetheless come to pass in the same days.
(St. Augustine, Epistola CXCIX, par. 39; in Collectio Selecta Ss. Ecclesiae Patrum, vol. CXLVIII (https://archive.org/details/operaomniaaccura41auguuoft/page/n7/mode/2up) (Paris: Parent-Desbarres, 1835), pp. 127-128; underlining added. Professional translation commissioned by Novus Ordo Watch.)
https://novusordowatch.org/2021/11/saint-augustine-church-will-not-appear-during-tribulation/
Matthew 28:20
[20] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=47&ch=28&l=20-#x) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
docentes eos servare omnia quaecuмque mandavi vobis : et ecce ego vobiscuм sum omnibus diebus, usque ad consummationem saeculi.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47028.htm
Jeremiah 30:11
[11] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=28&ch=30&l=11-#x) For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: for I will utterly consume all the nations, among which I have scattered thee: but I will not utterly consume thee: but I will chastise thee in judgment, that thou mayst not seem to thyself innocent.
quoniam tecuм ego sum, ait Dominus, ut salvem te. Faciam enim consummationem in cunctis gentibus in quibus dispersi te : te autem non faciam in consummationem : sed castigabo te in judicio, ut non videaris tibi innoxius.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/28030.htm
[27] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=32&ch=9&l=27-#x) And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.
Confirmabit autem pactum multis hebdomada una : et in dimidio hebdomadis deficiet hostia et sacrificium : et erit in templo abominatio desolationis : et usque ad consummationem et finem perseverabit desolatio.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/32009.htm
Isaiah 10:22-3(http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27028.htm)
22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=10&l=22-#x) For if thy people, O Israel, shall be as the sand of the sea, a remnant of them shall be converted, the consumption abridged shall overflow with justice.
Si enim fuerit populus tuus, Israel, quasi arena maris, reliquiae convertentur ex eo; consummatio abbreviata inundabit justitiam.[23] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=10&l=23-#x) For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, and an abridgment in the midst of all the land.http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27010.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27010.htm)
Consummationem enim et abbreviationem Dominus Deus exercituum faciet in medio omnis terrae.
[22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=22-#x) And now do not mock, lest your bonds be tied strait. For I have heard of the Lord the God of hosts a consumption and a cutting short upon all the earth.
Et nunc nolite illudere, ne forte constringantur vincula vestra; consummationem enim et abbreviationem audivi a Domino Deo exercituum, super universam terram.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27028.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27028.htm)
Matthew 24:22
[22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=47&ch=24&l=22-#x) And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.
Et nisi breviati fuissent dies illi, non fieret salva omnis caro : sed propter electos breviabuntur dies illi.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm
[26] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=9&l=26-#x) For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.
alioquin oportebat eum frequenter pati ab origine mundi : nunc autem semel in consummatione saeculorum, ad destitutionem peccati, per hostiam suam apparuit.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/65009.htm
Hebrews 8:5-13
[5] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=8&l=5-#x) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things. As it was answered to Moses, when he was to finish the tabernacle: See (saith he) that thou make all things according to the pattern which was shewn thee on the mount.
qui exemplari, et umbrae deserviunt caelestium. Sicut responsum est Moysi, cuм consummaret tabernaculum : Vide ( inquit) omnia facito secundum exemplar, quod tibi ostensum est in monte.[6] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=8&l=6-#x) But now he hath obtained a better ministry, by how much also he is a mediator of a better testament, which is established on better promises.
Nunc autem melius sortitus est ministerium, quanto et melioris testamenti mediator est, quod in melioribus repromissionibus sancitum est.[7] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=8&l=7-#x) For if that former had been faultless, there should not indeed a place have been sought for a second.
Nam si illud prius culpa vacasset, non utique secundi locus inquireretur.[8] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=8&l=8-#x) For finding fault with them, he saith: Behold, the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect unto the house of Israel, and unto the house of Juda, a new testament:
Vituperans enim eos dicit : Ecce dies venient, dicit Dominus : et consummabo super domum Israel, et super domum Juda, testamentum novum,[9] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=8&l=9-#x) Not according to the testament which I made to their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt: because they continued not in my testament: and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
non secundum testamentum quod feci patribus eorum in die qua apprehendi manum eorum ut educerem illos de terra Aegypti : quoniam ipsi non permanserunt in testamento meo : et ego neglexi eos, dicit Dominus.[10] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=8&l=10-#x) For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind, and in their heart will I write them: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:
Quia hoc est testamentum quod disponam domui Israel post dies illos, dicit Dominus : dando leges meas in mentem eorum, et in corde eorum superscribam eas : et ero eis in Deum, et ipsi erunt mihi in populum :[11] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=8&l=11-#x) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least to the greatest of them:
et non docebit unusquisque proximum suum, et unusquisque fratrem suum, dicens : Cognosce Dominum : quoniam omnes scient me a minore usque ad majorem eorum :[12] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=8&l=12-#x) Because I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more.[13] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=8&l=13-#x) Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end.
quia propitius ero iniquitatibus eorum, et peccatorum eorum jam non memorabor.
Dicendo autem novum : veteravit prius. Quod autem antiquatur, et senescit, prope interitum est.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/65008.htm
Article 1. Whether any signs will precede the Lord's coming to judgment?
Objection 1. It would seem that the Lord's (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) coming to judgment will not be preceded by any signs. Because it is written (1 Thessalonians 5:3 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/1th005.htm#verse3)): "When they shall say: Peace and security; then shall sudden destruction come upon them." Now there would be no peace and security if men were terrified by previous signs. Therefore signs will not precede that coming.
. . .
Reply to Objection 1. According to Augustine (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm) (Ad Hesych., Ep. lxxx) towards the end of the world there will be a general persecution (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm) of the good (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm) by the wicked (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm): so that at the same time some will fear, namely the good (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm), and some will be secure, namely the wicked (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm). The words: "When they shall say: Peace and security," refer to the wicked (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm), who will pay little heed to the signs of the coming judgment: while the words of Luke 21:26 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk021.htm#verse26), "men withering away," etc., should be referred to the good (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm).
We may also reply that all these signs that will happen about the time (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm) of the judgment are reckoned to occur within the time occupied by the judgment, so that the judgment day (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm) contains them all. Wherefore although men be terrified by the signs appearing about the judgment day (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm), yet before those signs begin to appear the wicked (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm) will think themselves to be in peace and security, after the death of Antichrist (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01559a.htm) and before the coming of Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm), seeing that the world is not at once destroyed, as they thought hitherto.
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/5073.htm
Quote from: St Augustine, The City of God (Book XX)QuoteThat the last judgment, then, shall be administered by Jesus Christ in the manner predicted in the sacred writings is denied or doubted by no one, unless by those who, through some incredible animosity or blindness, decline to believe these writings, though already their truth is demonstrated to all the world. And at or in connection with that judgment the following events shall come to pass, as we have learned: Elias the Tishbite shall come; the Jєωs shall believe; Antichrist shall persecute; Christ shall judge; the dead shall rise; the good and the wicked shall be separated; the world shall be burned and renewed. All these things, we believe, shall come to pass; but how, or in what order, human understanding cannot perfectly teach us, but only the experience of the events themselves. My opinion, however, is, that they will happen in the order in which I have related them.
Commenting on the opening of the sixth seal Tyconius says:
Quote from: see attachmentQuoteFor it is not only in the last earthquake, when many [of the heavenly bodies = faithful] fall from heaven, that some will flee to the mountains, the mercy of the Lord. This always has happened from the passion of the Lord up until now. But at that time it will be greater, when the sign of the “falling away” will show that the day of the Lord is beginning.
Tyconius sees the day of the Lord beginning with the “falling away”, i.e. the sign given by the Apostle in 2 Thess 2. Hence the day of the Lord begins with and includes the falling away, the revelation of the man of sin, the reign of Antichrist. Maybe that's how and why St. Augustine, too, says that the reign of Antichrist may be included in the events that shall come to pass at the final judgment (see Reply #93 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg664657/#msg664657)).
Quote from: Jerome, Commentary in Isaiah 13:12QuoteIn consummatione mundi, quando orbis redactus fuerit in solitudinem, et obtenebratus sol in ortu suo, et luna splendorem suum non dederit, tanta fient ab Antichristo signa atque portenta, ut iniquitate crescente, refrigescat charitas multorum, ad decipiendos etiam si fieri potest electos Dei (Matth. XXIV).
mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2&rumpfid=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2, Commentaria in Isaiam, 6,)
St. Jerome, commenting on Isaiah 13:12, says that during the consummation of the world the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's splendor, and Antichrist will present his signs and fictions, such that growing wickedness will make freeze the charity of many, to deceive (if possible) even the elect.
St. Jerome clearly believes that the consummation of the world includes the time of the reign of Antichrist, as this quote shows and as his Commentary in Matthew shows (see Reply #137 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg703580/#msg703580)).
Various Church Fathers say that the darkened sun and moon signify "Church in eclipse" (though not necessarily using these words). In his Commentary on Daniel (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm), the wording of Jerome about the Antichrist predecessor Antiochus Epiphanes is "the religion of God suffered an eclipse".
The Vatican Council uses the same phrase with regards to the consummation as Mt 28:20 does, yes, but that doesn't mean that Mt 28:20 is referring to "shepherds and teachers". Our Lord clearly says HE is with us all days, even usque ad consummationem saeculi. He does not mention the hierarchy at all, and "shepherds and teachers" =/= Christ. Pretending Mt 28:20 is about something which isn't referred to, stated, or implied at all is just ridiculous.
Furthermore, while Christ says he's with us to(i.e until) the consummation, He also says he is with us all days. If the consummation was a period of time before the world ended, then it would be impossible for both statements to be true. If the set of all days includes the consummation, and Christ(or the hierarchy) is only with us until the consummation, then it would be logically impossible for Christ to be with us all days. Yet he says He is. Therefore the consummation cannot be referring to a period of time before the end of the world, but rather the moment in which the world ends. Even if we pretend that the verse is about "shepherds and teachers", despite the fact that there's nothing to point to that, it is still impossible for them to be with us "all days" and yet not be with us during the consummation if the consummation is a period of time, for if they are not with us during the days of the consummation then they are clearly not with us "all days".
No matter how much you blatantly try to twist Scripture to fit your private interpretation, one thing you'll never be able to avoid is simple logic. Your interpretation of the consummation as a period of time makes Christ's promise self-contradictory, proving that you are interpreting it wrong.
Matthew 28
And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. [17] And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. [18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Apocalypse 18
[23] (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=18&l=23-#x) And the light of the lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth, for all nations have been deceived by thy enchantments. [24] (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=18&l=24-#x) And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Good old Struthio, I wonder what ever happened to him? I haven't seen him on here in a year or two.
His theory outlined here gets bonus points for cleverness, but it's obviously wrong. The "consummation of the world" means the end of the world, not the beginning of some time period before the end of the world. I can't imagine how he can get that interpretation from reading these passages. If the "consummation of the world" refers to a time period, what defines the beginning of that time period? He never explained this, and the passages he quoted don't say that either, since that's not what they're saying.
Struthio is confusing the term "consummation of the world" with the term "end times". The "end times" or the "latter days" (note the plural in both those expressions, which does indicate an ongoing period) is not the same thing as the "consummation of the world", for the simple reason that 1. we don't know if we are in the end times, and 2. that the world is not yet consummated. The consummation of something is the end of it.
Struthio could have verified all of these things with a simple dictionary. He seems like a smart guy, so it's hard to see how he has trouble with such simple words.
His reference to the prophecy of Our Lord is problematic because Our Lord is predicting both the end of the world and the destruction of Jerusalem in the same passage, and it is hard to see which statements refer to which events, and which refer to both events.
For example, he quotes the "abomination of desolation" as being a sign of the end of the world. But this has also been applied to the destruction of Jerusalem. I think it was in Gueranger that I read that the abomination of desolation that warned the Jєωs to flee Jerusalem was the putting up of a statue of a pagan god in the temple of Jerusalem. As soon as the Romans did that, the converted Jєωs fled Jerusalem.
At the very least, such obscure passages can hardly be adduced to prove anything as clear and definite as he is trying to argue.
Basically, the consummation of the world means the end of the world. Just look the word up in a dictionary. We are not in the end of the world.
What shall we say then? All these things have to be understood spiritually in this manner: “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” and “So when you see the desolating sacrilege … standing in the holy place.” That is to say, when you see a godless heresy, which is the army of Antichrist, standing in the holy places of the church, at that time “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,” that is, let those who are in Christianity hasten to the Scriptures. For just as the real Jew is a Christian, as the apostle says (“For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly.… He is a Jew who is one inwardly”), so also the real Judah is Christianity, whose name is understood to mean “confession.” But the mountains are the Scriptures of the apostles and prophets, concerning whom it is said, “Glorious are you, more majestic than the everlasting mountains.” And again he says about the church, “On the holy mount stands the city he founded.” And why does he order all Christians to hasten to the Scriptures at this time? Because at this time, ever since a heresy lay hold of those churches, there can be no other test of true Christianity or any other refuge of Christians who want to know the truth of the faith than the divine Scriptures. For previously he was showing in many ways what the church of Christ is and what heathenness is, but now those who want to know what the true church of Christ is can know it in no other way than only through the Scriptures. Why? Because also the heretics in their schism have all these things that are rightly Christ’s in truth: they likewise have churches, the divine Scriptures also, bishops and the rest of the ranks of clergy, baptism, the Eucharist in other respects, and all the other things, and finally Christ. Therefore, if someone wishes to know what the true church of Christ is, how will he know it amid the confusion of such similarity unless he learns it only through the Scriptures?
Thomas C. Oden and Gerald L. Bray, eds., Incomplete Commentary on Matthew (Opus Imperfectum), trans. James A. Kellerman, vol. 1 & 2, Ancient Christian Texts (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic: An Imprint of InterVarsity Press, 2010), 382–383.
Things started going haywire from the late fourteenth and 15th century or so on, slowly at first, the influx of paganism and esoteric hermeticism during the Renaissance, the relaxation of disciplinary laws regarding usury, the speculations regarding the salvation vel non of those in the New World who had not heard the Gospel, and then the Reformation and the revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries.Indeed. The prophecies of St Bridget testify to the general corruption of the world during the 14th century.
Well, from the perspective of the saints, the world is always in a state of corruption ... as there's always been sin in the world. Relatively speaking, however, from our perspective, the 14th / 15th centuries may well have been heaven on earth.Indeed, though it seems even the religious were corrupt. God also complains in other chapters about the state of the clergy. . Yeah compared to the near complete satanic inversion today even those 'bad times' seem 'heavenly'.
God continued in revealing to the bride the following: "Hear now what My enemies do as opposed to what My friends once did. My friends used to enter monasteries out of wise fear and divine charity. But those who are now in the monasteries go off into the world out of pride and cupidity, following their selfish will and living for the pleasures of their body. The judgment for those who die with such a disposition is that they shall neither experience nor obtain heavenly joy but only endless punishment in hell.Just to keep the thread on topic I have bolded the sentence with the term 'consummation'.
"Know, too, that those who live in a cloister but are forced by divine charity and against their own will to become superiors shall not be counted in that number. Knights, moreover, who used to bear arms, were prepared to give their lives for justice and to shed their blood for the sake of the holy faith by helping the needy to obtain justice and by restraining evildoers and keeping them humble.
"Yet, now hear how far they have turned away. Nowadays they prefer to die in war for the sake of pride and cupidity and envy, on the promptings of the devil, rather than to live according to My commands in order to obtain everlasting joy. Therefore, the wages of a just condemnation shall be given to all those who die with such a disposition. This means that devils will be given to their souls to be eternally joined with them as their wages. However, those who do serve Me are to receive their soldier's wages together with the heavenly army forever without end."
The Son then speaks: "Daughter, how stands the world now?"
She answers: "Like an open sack to which everyone runs, like a man running without caring what he is following."
The Lord answers: "Therefore, I am right to go with my plow over the earth, plowing over Gentiles and Christians, sparing neither old nor young, neither poor nor rich. Each shall be judged according to his or her own righteousness, and each shall die in his or her own sin, and their homes shall be left without inhabitants. However, I shall not do this until the consummation."
She replied: "O Lord, do not get angry if I speak. Send some of your friends to warn and admonish them about their danger!"
And the Lord said: "It is written that when the rich man despaired of his own salvation in hell, he asked that someone might be sent to warn his brothers so that they would not perish in the same way. The answer to him was: 'That shall in no way be done, for they have Moses and the prophets to teach them.' So I tell you now: They have the Gospels and the sayings of the prophets, they have the words and examples of the holy doctors, they have reason and intelligence.
"Let them make use of these things, and they will be saved. If I send you, you would not be able to cry out loud enough to be heard. If I send My friends, there are but few of them, and if they cry out, they will scarcely be heard. However, I will send My friends to those I choose, and they shall prepare the way for God."