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Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: Struthio on August 14, 2019, 02:52:02 PM

Title: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 14, 2019, 02:52:02 PM


Quote
So then, just as he sent apostles, whom he chose out of the world [39], even as he had been sent by the Father [40], in like manner it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.
Source: Vatican Council, Pastor aeternus papalencyclicals.net (https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum20.htm)

There should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time. What exactly does until the end of time mean? Here the latin:
 

Quote
ita in Ecclesia sua pastores et doctores "usque ad consummationem saeculi" [Mt 28,20] esse voluit.
Source: Denzinger/Hünermann: Enchiridium symbolorum, Herder, 2009

Ok, shepherds and teachers up to the consummation of the world.
Now, what exactly does consummatio saeculi mean?

Quote
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
 
 docentes eos servare omnia quaecumque mandavi vobis : et ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus, usque ad consummationem saeculi.
 
Source: Mt 28,20 drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47028.htm)

Christ is with us in his shepherds. This doesn't answer our question: What exactly does consummatio saeculi mean?
 


Quote
[3] And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?
 
 Sedente autem eo super montem Oliveti, accesserunt ad eum discipuli secreto, dicentes : Dic nobis, quando haec erunt? et quod signum adventus tui, et consummationis saeculi?
 

[...]
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come.
 
 Et praedicabitur hoc Evangelium regni in universo orbe, in testimonium omnibus gentibus : et tunc veniet consummatio.
 
 [15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.
 
 Cum ergo videritis abominationem desolationis, quae dicta est a Daniele propheta, stantem in loco sancto, qui legit, intelligat:
Source: Mt 24 drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm)

Here we have the answer. The consummation will start with the abomination of desolation in the last days of tribulation before the second coming of Our Lord.

See also: Daniel 9,27

What is the abomination of desolation?

St. John Chrysostom in the Opus imperfectum on Matthew in Homily XLIX on Mt 24 says that the destruction of the Church will parallel the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70. The hosts of Titus in A.D. 70 are hosts of heretics at that time. Most Jҽωs were killed in A.D. 70, and the rest scattered all over the world. Most Catholics will be spiritually killed at that time, and the rest scattered all over the world. Following St. John Chrysostom, "the" Antichrist is not a single person but is the hosts of heretics.
 

Conclusion: The infallible Vatican Council, in Pastor aeternus, says that there shall be shepherds and teachers up to the consummation, which starts with the erection of the abomination of desolation, which is the beginning of the "last days", of  the "time of tribulation".
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Praeter on August 14, 2019, 09:19:44 PM
Well, according to the teaching of Bishop Sanborn, the "end of time" must refer to 1965, or shortly thereafter.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: LeDeg on August 15, 2019, 12:39:30 AM
Very interesting insights.


Honest question. How does the conclusion not lead one to consider that the Home Aloners are correct?
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Stubborn on August 15, 2019, 06:24:06 AM
Very interesting insights.


Honest question. How does the conclusion not lead one to consider that the Home Aloners are correct?
I didn't get that out of the conclusion.

If there will be shepherds and teachers, i.e. bishops and priests till the end of time, then Home Aloners (the dogmatic ones), are wrong to think there are no priests left because the end of time has not yet come.  The Home Aloners who stay home because there is no TLM near them but do indeed go to the True Mass when it is possible for them to go, are correct in doing so. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 15, 2019, 06:40:28 AM
Honest question. How does the conclusion not lead one to consider that the Home Aloners are correct?

Very good question.

The abomination of desolation, which is the beginning of the consummation of the world, would be the Robber Council 1962-1965 where virtually all apostolically authorized shepherds met to declare their revolt (2 Thess 2,3) and apostasy and adherence to the "synthesis of all heresies" in a most solemn act. They found a new religion of man and make fire to come down from heaven unto the earth (Apoc 13,13) for their new pentecost.

The Vatican Council explains the promise of our Lord (Mt 28,20) that there shall be apostolically authorized sheperds until the consummation.

The consummation is lasting more than 50 years now. It may last 70 years like the babylonian exile (Dan 9,2), or end before the generation of witnesses of the abomination will pass (Mt 24,32-34).

What should one do in this time of tribulation? flee to the mountains (Mt 24,16), not go back to the house to take ones coat (Mt 24,17-18), Go out from Babylon (Ap 18,4). If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. (Mt 24,26)


Looks like home-aloning is recommended.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 15, 2019, 06:51:46 AM
I didn't get that out of the conclusion.

If there will be shepherds and teachers, i.e. bishops and priests till the end of time, then [...]


The consummation is a time span, the time span we're living in. There will be shepherds and teachers until that time span, until the beginning of that time span.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Stubborn on August 15, 2019, 07:15:11 AM

The consummation is a time span, the time span we're living in. There will be shepherds and teachers until that time span, until the beginning of that time span.
You quoted V1 as saying: it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.

The end of time is the end point in time, it is when time stops because time ends and eternity begins for whoever is left on earth, it's when Our Lord comes again, that is the final judgement, that is when all of human history comes to an end, which is when the world ends, but the end of time is not a time span. Up until it's end is a span of time, but time's end is not a span of time - and no one except God knows when that will happen.

Up until that time, there will be priests and bishops is what V1 says, the only way to make it say what you are suggesting it says, is to change what it says, which is what you are doing, you're just taking the long way around.

You are suggesting it really says: it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the beginning of the end of time.

We can toss bible verses back and forth all day long, only to determine the world actually ended in 1906. Best to just accept V1 as it is written.


Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 15, 2019, 07:49:11 AM
You quoted V1 as saying: it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.

No, Stubborn, no, I didn't.

I quoted a translation found on papalencyclicals.net as saying "until the end of time".

And (not only in the title of this thread) I quoted a Denzinger edition saying "usque ad consummationem saeculi".


Best to just accept V1 as it is written.

True!

So let's stay with the original Latin: "usque ad consummationem saeculi"

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Stubborn on August 15, 2019, 08:13:22 AM
True!

So let's stay with the original Latin: "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
That's fine. Either way it means the same thing. Christ promised: I am with you all days, even "usque ad consummationem saeculi".

"consummationem saeculi" is an event, the end of the world is an event, a process to get to that point, yes, but the event itself happens at a point in time, it is therefore a point in time, up until that point in time we know that Christ, the Church, will be with us. We are just as certain that till that point, we will have bishops and priests, as we are certain that He will not leave us as orphans. Once time runs out, woe to them who are on the wrong side at that point.


Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 15, 2019, 08:22:01 AM
That's fine. Either way it means the same thing. Christ promised: I am with you all days, even "usque ad consummationem saeculi".

"consummationem saeculi" is an event, the end of the world is an event, a process to get to that point, yes, but the event itself happens at a point in time, it is therefore a point in time, up until that point in time we know that Christ, the Church, will be with us. We are just as certain that till that point, we will have bishops and priests, as we are certain that He will not leave us as orphans. Once time runs out, woe to them who are on the wrong side at that point.


Dear Stubborn, please forgive me, but I reject your teachings and will stay with the explanations of the Vatican Council and of Our Lord in Mt 24.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Stubborn on August 15, 2019, 09:15:15 AM

Dear Stubborn, please forgive me, but I reject your teachings and will stay with the explanations of the Vatican Council and of Our Lord in Mt 24.
I forgive you.

Mt 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 15, 2019, 06:45:39 PM
I rarely agree with Stubborn, but I must here. The consummation of the world means the end of the world. If someone says X will last until the end of time, they mean it will last until the final moment of existence - not that it will cease to exist when the Apocalypse commences. The abomination of desolation signals the beginning of the End Times, but Vatican I more likely suggests that the Papacy will remain until the end of the End Times(i.e the exact moment the world ends) rather than merely the beginning of the End Times. This is further supported by the fact that the "gates of Hell shall not prevail against Her" promise is not qualified with any "until the End Times" or "until the abomination of desolation" or anything similar. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 15, 2019, 08:07:49 PM
I rarely agree with Stubborn, but I must here. The consummation of the world means the end of the world.

If someone says X will last until the end of time, they mean it will last until the final moment of existence - not that it will cease to exist when the Apocalypse commences.

But that same someone is the Vatican Council which does not say "until the end of time". There is a poor translation which says "until the end of time", but that's not the Vatican Council. The Vatican Council, the someone, says "usque ad consummationem saeculi" - until the consummation of the world.

In Mt 24 the disciples ask Our Lord: and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world? And the answer of the Lord is that several things will happen until finally the gospel will have been preached all over the world, and then the consummation will come. Then, when we see the abomination of desolation, then the consummation will happen. Then we should read Daniel, watch out, run away, etc.



The abomination of desolation signals the beginning of the End Times, but Vatican I more likely suggests that the Papacy will remain until the end of the End Times(i.e the exact moment the world ends) rather than merely the beginning of the End Times. This is further supported by the fact that the "gates of Hell shall not prevail against Her" promise is not qualified with any "until the End Times" or "until the abomination of desolation" or anything similar.

Yes, the "gates of hell"-promise is not limited until the consummation. The gates of hell shall never prevail. But the "gates of hell"-promise does not concern shepherds or the Pope. The Council of Trent teaches that "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her" means that the gates of hell won't prevail against the Faith as defined in the Creed of the same Council:


Quote from: Council of Trent, Third Session
For which cause, this council has thought good, that the Symbol of faith which the holy Roman Church makes use of, –as being that principle wherein all who profess the faith of Christ necessarily agree, and that firm and alone foundation against which the gates of hell shall never prevail,– be expressed in the very same words in which it is read in all the churches. Which Symbol is as follows: [...]
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/third-session.htm


The idea that "the gates of Hell shall not prevail" is a statement concerning the papacy is pure fantasy.

It's better to stick to the clear, authoritative, and definitive teachings of the Council of Trent and the Vatican Council than to invent contradicting ideas out of thin air.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 15, 2019, 08:31:46 PM
@forlorn

I have mentioned Daniel 9,27 in the opening post. Since you are stubborn, lazy, and verloren (https://translate.google.com/?hl=de#view=home&op=translate&sl=de&tl=en&text=verloren), I look it up and put it right in front of your nose:

Quote from: Daniel 9,27
[...] and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.
Source: drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/32009.htm)

to the consummation, and to the end says the prophet.

As you can see: the consummation happens before the end.

It is a good idea to follow our Lord and read Daniel, when we see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.


(The text is about the temple in Jerusalem, destroyed in A.D. 70, not reerected until today.)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Stubborn on August 16, 2019, 06:19:39 AM
@forlorn

I have mentioned Daniel 9,27 in the opening post. Since you are stubborn, lazy, and verloren (https://translate.google.com/?hl=de#view=home&op=translate&sl=de&tl=en&text=verloren), I look it up and put it right in front of your nose:
Source: drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/32009.htm)

to the consummation, and to the end says the prophet.

As you can see: the consummation happens before the end.

It is a good idea to follow our Lord and read Daniel, when we see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.


(The text is about the temple in Jerusalem, destroyed in A.D. 70, not reerected until today.)
What you are doing, is starting with home alonesim, then going through these theological gymnastics in an effort to claim there are no priests and bishops, so as to rationalize home aloneism - all the while claiming that you arrive at your conclusion using "the explanations of the Vatican Council and of Our Lord in Mt 24" - when you are doing no such thing.

The "consummation and the end" obviously means that the end will be complete or absolute. In other words, there will be nothing left. When the consummation of the world happens, the world will not will be partially consumed, it will be entirely consumed, completely gone, no longer in existence because it will have been consumed completely.

It does not mean that the consummation has already begun and the priests and bishops (of all people) were the first to go so as to leave us as orphans, hiding in the dark waiting for, what, the end?       

The cockle and the wheat grow together until the end, when they are separated at the harvest.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: 2Vermont on August 16, 2019, 06:27:31 AM
Very good question.

The abomination of desolation, which is the beginning of the consummation of the world, would be the Robber Council 1962-1965 where virtually all apostolically authorized shepherds met to declare their revolt (2 Thess 2,3) and apostasy and adherence to the "synthesis of all heresies" in a most solemn act. They found a new religion of man and make fire to come down from heaven unto the earth (Apoc 13,13) for their new pentecost.

The Vatican Council explains the promise of our Lord (Mt 28,20) that there shall be apostolically authorized sheperds until the consummation.

The consummation is lasting more than 50 years now. It may last 70 years like the babylonian exile (Dan 9,2), or end before the generation of witnesses of the abomination will pass (Mt 24,32-34).

What should one do in this time of tribulation? flee to the mountains (Mt 24,16), not go back to the house to take ones coat (Mt 24,17-18), Go out from Babylon (Ap 18,4). If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. (Mt 24,26)


Looks like home-aloning is recommended.
Were all the authorized shepherds at the Robber Council?  Did any of the authorized shepherds renounce the Robber Council?
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 07:39:47 AM
What you are doing, is starting with home alonesim, then going through these theological gymnastics [...]

No, Stubborn, not true.

I was told that the sedevacantist position seems unlikely, since Pastor aeternus refers to Our Lord's promise not to leave us as orphans. Then I checked what Pastor aeternus really teaches.

It's not "theological gymnastics" to ask what exactly the Council means when saying usque ad consummationem saeculi.

I was quite astonished to find support for home-alonism.


It does not mean that the consummation has already begun [...]

True, I agree. When I say that the consummation has already begun, then that's an observation of mine and not a statement of the Vatican Council. Taking the comments of St. John Chrysostom and the Robber Council as I see it, I come to the conclusion that it has begun.


[...] leave us as orphans, hiding in the dark waiting for, what, the end?        

Prophecy is clear. In the end "the band of the holy people" will be "scattered" (Dan 12,7). The function of the shepherds, and the Pope, is to gather the "holy people", not scatter them. But they will be scattered.

Also, Our Lord himself says: "And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened." (Mt 24,22) Does that sound like we have to expect flourishing parishes, shepherds and a Pope, when Our Lord returns?




Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Stubborn on August 16, 2019, 08:10:06 AM
No, Stubborn, not true.

I was told that the sedevacantist position seems unlikely, since Pastor aeternus refers to Our Lord's promise not to leave us as orphans. Then I checked what Pastor aeternus really teaches.
Without pastors, we would be orphans with no one to feed us, i.e. feed our souls. With that in mind, it is only logical that priests should be the last ones to go, not the first. Seems you claim that V1 really teaches they're the first ones to go, which is exactly opposite of what it actually says.





 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 08:11:57 AM
Were all the authorized shepherds at the Robber Council?  Did any of the authorized shepherds renounce the Robber Council?

Whether present or not at the Robber Council, we don't need more than one hand to count those who rejected it.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 08:25:56 AM
Without pastors, we would be orphans with no one to feed us, i.e. feed our souls. With that in mind, it is only logical that priests should be the last ones to go, not the first. Seems you claim that V1 really teaches they're the first ones to go, which is exactly opposite of what it actually says.

You are speculating based on the assumption that it's impossible that Catholics are or will be orphans during the consummation.

Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, your assumption is unacceptable.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: 2Vermont on August 16, 2019, 08:39:27 AM
Whether present or not at the Robber Council, we don't need more than one hand to count those who rejected it.
As long as there that many, then the shepherds are not missing.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Stubborn on August 16, 2019, 09:22:20 AM
You are speculating based on the assumption that it's impossible that Catholics are or will be orphans during the consummation.

Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, your assumption is unacceptable.
Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, your assumption is unacceptable. - - -  What? :confused:

I am not basing a speculation on an assumption, I am accepting as fact what both V1 and Our Lord Himself said in John 14:18: "I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you."

Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, for faithful Catholics it is a fact that we will not be left as orphans, that there will always be priests and bishops for faithful Catholics, as long as there are faithful Catholics in this world.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 09:32:49 AM
As long as there that many, then the shepherds are not missing.

They're deceased. Apostolic succession is over. R&R-proponents say that that's impossible, and conclude that the robber conciliar hierarchy didn't lose their offices though they're modernist heretics. Sedevacantists say that they did lose offices. But sedevacantist bishops have no apostolic seat or mandate either.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 09:46:11 AM
I am not basing a speculation on an assumption, I am accepting as fact what both V1 and Our Lord Himself said in John 14:18: "I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you."

See verse 16. Our Lord speaks about the Paraclete, and not about shepherds.



Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, for faithful Catholics it is a fact that we will not be left as orphans, that there will always be priests and bishops for faithful Catholics, as long as there are faithful Catholics in this world.

No. The meaning of the term "consummation of the world", used by the Vatican Council, is given by Our Lord in Mt 28 and Mt 24 (see the opening post).


You suggest again that the consummation identifies a point in time or a very short event before the return of Our Lord. But this idea is based on nothing but on your own fantasy.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Stubborn on August 16, 2019, 10:19:10 AM
You want the word "consummation" to mean "consummating" - I think. At this point I can't be sure what you want it to mean.

At what point is the marriage complete? At the consummation of the marriage.
At what point does the world end? At the consummation of the world.




 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Praeter on August 16, 2019, 11:12:01 AM
They're deceased. Apostolic succession is over. R&R-proponents say that that's impossible, and conclude that the robber conciliar hierarchy didn't lose their offices though they're modernist heretics. Sedevacantists say that they did lose offices. But sedevacantist bishops have no apostolic seat or mandate either.
Just to be clear, are you saying the Church, as Christ founded it, no longer exists?  That there is no longer a Church that can legitimately carry out the mission that Christ entrusted to it (which requires legitimate authority)?
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 11:34:30 AM
You want the word "consummation" to mean "consummating" - I think. At this point I can't be sure what you want it to mean.

At what point is the marriage complete? At the consummation of the marriage.
At what point does the world end? At the consummation of the world.


I don't want the term "consummation of the world" mean anything. I just look the meaning up.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 16, 2019, 11:55:58 AM
I don't want the term "consummation of the world" mean anything. I just look the meaning up.
It means the end of the world. So if there will be a hierarchy until the consummation of the world, there will be a hierarchy until the world ends. Has the world ended yet? Not quite. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 12:00:40 PM
Just to be clear, are you saying the Church, as Christ founded it, no longer exists?

No. The new covenant cannot be and is not over, and the gates of hell have not prevailed and will not prevail against the Church.


That there is no longer a Church that can legitimately carry out the mission that Christ entrusted to it (which requires legitimate authority)?

No, I don't subscribe to that proposition. My conclusion is: Currently, seats are occupied by apostates or modernist heretics. So currently, the Church isn't carrying out certain tasks which are reserved to legitimate occupants of the seats.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 12:03:51 PM
It means the end of the world. So if there will be a hierarchy until the consummation of the world, there will be a hierarchy until the world ends. Has the world ended yet? Not quite.

If I want to know, what consummation of the world means, I look it up in canonical texts, not in posts of forlorn@cathinfo.

 ;)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Praeter on August 16, 2019, 12:26:03 PM
No, I don't subscribe to that proposition. My conclusion is: Currently, seats are occupied by apostates or modernist heretics. So currently, the Church isn't carrying out certain tasks which are reserved to legitimate occupants of the seats.

Do you not realize that authority is necessary for the Church to carry our her mission?  If the seats are all occupied by apostates and modernist heretics with no authority, there is not longer an ecclesia docents (teaching Church), and the Church, as Christ founded it, no longer exists.  A Church without formal apostolic succession lacks the mark of apostolicity, which the true Church will always possess.

"Apostolicity is the mark by which the Church of today is recognized as identical with the Church founded by Jesus Christ upon the Apostles. It is of great importance because it is the surest indication of the true Church of Christ, it is most easily examined, and it virtually contains the other three marks, namely, Unity, Sanctity, and Catholicity.  (...) In explaining the concept of Apostolicity, then, special attention must be given to Apostolicity of mission, or Apostolic succession. Apostolicity of mission means that the Church is one moral body, possessing the mission entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles, and transmitted through them and their lawful successors in an unbroken chain to the present representatives of Christ upon earth. This authoritative transmission of power in the Church constitutes Apostolic succession. This Apostolic succession must be both material and formal; the material consisting in the actual succession in the Church, through a series of persons from the Apostolic age to the present; the formal adding the element of authority in the transmission of power. It consists in the legitimate transmission of the ministerial power conferred by Christ upon His Apostles. No one can give a power which he does not possess. Hence in tracing the mission of the Church back to the Apostles, no lacuna can be allowed, no new mission can arise; but the mission conferred by Christ must pass from generation to generation through an uninterrupted lawful succession. The Apostles received it from Christ and gave it in turn to those legitimately appointed by them, and these again selected others to continue the work of the ministry. Any break in this succession destroys Apostolicity, because the break means the beginning of a new series which is not Apostolic. "How shall they preach unless they be sent?" (Romans 10:15). An authoritative mission to teach is absolutely necessary, a man-given mission is not authoritative. Hence any concept of Apostolicity that excludes authoritative union with the Apostolic mission robs the ministry of its Divine character. Apostolicity, or Apostolic succession, then, means that the mission conferred by Jesus Christ upon the Apostles must pass from then to their legitimate successors, in an unbroken line, until the end of the world. (...) The intention of Christ is apparent from the Bible passages, which tell of the conferring of the mission upon the Apostles. "As the Father hath sent Me, I also send you: (John 20:21). The mission of the Apostles, like the mission of Christ, is a Divine mission; they are the Apostles, or ambassadors, of the Eternal Father. "All power is given to Me in heaven and on earth. Going, therefore, teach ye all nations; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you, and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world: (Matthew 28:1) .  This Divine mission is always to continue the same, hence it must be transmitted with its Divine character until the end of time, i.e. there must be an unbroken lawful succession which is called Apostolicity. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913).

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Alexandria on August 16, 2019, 01:00:56 PM
Struthio, would you be so kind as to just sum all of this up for me in a few words?  I don't quite grasp what you are saying.  The Church is there, but it isn't, and the seats are occupied by heretics and apostates.  So if that is so, how can you say the Church is still there?  If you are advocating sitting home (by the way, my husband and I [who are senior citizens] did that for almost 3 years and it did not bear good fruits - and, no, we didn't turn the day into a free-for-all either - just stopped going to Mass), yet you claim the Church is still there, there must be somewhere to go?

Maybe I am not understanding you correctly?
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 01:13:49 PM
Do you not realize that authority is necessary for the Church to carry our her mission?  If the seats are all occupied by apostates and modernist heretics with no authority, there is not longer an ecclesia docents (teaching Church), and the Church, as Christ founded it, no longer exists.  A Church without formal apostolic succession lacks the mark of apostolicity, which the true Church will always possess.

Dear Praeter, I sincerely thank you for your efforts to correct possible errors of mine, whether I accept or reject such efforts. I profess all dogma and articles of faith which the Magisterium of the Church has proposed or may propose. And I am anxious to make sure I'm free of errors and misunderstandings.

Here you present an article of a Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913. That's not the Magisterium of the Church, it has no authority. I won't be convinced by such articles or other opinions of theologians.

Please note that saying "until the end of the world" and "until the end of time", this article seems to reference the dogmatic constitution Pastor aeternus of the Vatican Council, where the original Latin is "usque ad consummationem saeculi". To convince me, you would have to show that "usque ad consummationem saeculi" in Pastor aeternus does not have the signification found in Mt 24.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 02:45:32 PM
Struthio, would you be so kind as to just sum all of this up for me in a few words? I don't quite grasp what you are saying.

My main point is in the opening post (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/). To understand the point, it is important to look at all the quotes found there.


I don't quite grasp what you are saying. The Church is there, but it isn't, and the seats are occupied by heretics and apostates. So if that is so, how can you say the Church is still there?

The Church is still there, see reply #12 (second half, quote of the Council of Trent) (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg663606/#msg663606).



If you are advocating sitting home (by the way, my husband and I [who are senior citizens] did that for almost 3 years and it did not bear good fruits - and, no, we didn't turn the day into a free-for-all either - just stopped going to Mass), yet you claim the Church is still there, there must be somewhere to go?

The point is, that the Vatican Council says that Our Lord's promise to be with us in his shepherds is until the consummation, which, following Mt 24, is a time span.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Praeter on August 16, 2019, 02:55:31 PM
Here you present an article of a Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913. That's not the Magisterium of the Church, it has no authority. I won't be convinced by such articles or other opinions of theologians.

Please note that saying "until the end of the world" and "until the end of time", this article seems to reference the dogmatic constitution Pastor aeternus of the Vatican Council, where the original Latin is "usque ad consummationem saeculi". To convince me, you would have to show that "usque ad consummationem saeculi" in Pastor aeternus does not have the signification found in Mt 24.
Satis Cognitum, Leo XIII: “And, since it was necessary that His divine mission should be perpetuated to the end of time, He took to Himself Disciples, trained by himself, and made them partakers of His own authority. And, when He had invoked upon them from Heaven the Spirit of Truth, He bade them go through the whole world and faithfully preach to all nations, what He had taught and what He had commanded, so that by the profession of His doctrine, and the observance of His laws, the human race might attain to holiness on earth and never-ending happiness in Heaven. (…) But, as we have already said, the Apostolic mission was not destined to die with the Apostles themselves, or to come to an end in the course of time, since it was intended for the people at large and instituted for the salvation of the human race. For Christ commanded His Apostles to preach the "Gospel to every creature, to carry His name to nations and kings, and to be witnesses to him to the ends of the earth." He further promised to assist them in the fulfilment of their high mission, and that, not for a few years or centuries only, but for all time (sed in omne tempus) – ‘even to the consummation of the world’.  Upon which St. Jerome says: ‘He who promises to remain with His Disciples to the end of the world declares that they will be forever victorious, and that He will never depart from those who believe in Him’ (In Matt., lib. iv., cap. 28, v. 20).”

Notice, the apostolic mission will last until “the end of time” and will not come to an end “in the course of time.”   Also notice that he confirms his statement that the Church will last “for all time,” by quoting Christ’s statement that He will be with the Church “even to the consummation of the world.”  This shows that Leo XIII understand “the consummation of the world” to refer to the actual end of time, not a point during the course of time.  That’s how the Church and her theologians have always interpreted the phrase.    

Leo XIII also teaches that the Church is to remain visible to the end of time:

Satis Cognitum, LeoXIII: “… the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ – ‘Now you are the body of Christ’ (I Cor. xii., 27) - and precisely because it is a body is the Church visible: (…) those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error: (…) The connection and union of both elements [i.e., visible and invisible] is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life. As Christ, the Head and Exemplar, is not wholly in His visible human nature, which Photinians and Nestorians assert, nor wholly in the invisible divine nature, as the Monophysites hold, but is one, from and in both natures, visible and invisible; so the mystical body of Christ is the true Church, only because its visible parts draw life and power from the supernatural gifts and other things whence spring their very nature and essence. But since the Church is such by divine will and constitution, such it must uniformly remain to the end of time (in aeternitate temporum). If it did not, then it would not have been founded as perpetual, and the end set before it would have been limited to some certain place and to some certain period of time (locorum esset temporumque certo spatio defintlus); both of which are contrary to the truth. The union consequently of visible and invisible elements because it harmonizes with the natural order and by God's will belongs to the very essence of the Church, must necessarily remain so long as the Church itself shall endure.”
 
Pius IX teaches that the Church founded by Christ is a perfect society, with an authoritative teaching body, and that it will always remain as Christ founded it.     

Mortalium Animos, Pius XI: “A good number of them [the heretics], for example, deny that the Church of Christ must be visible and apparent, at least to such a degree that it appears as one body of faithful, agreeing in one and the same doctrine under one teaching authority and government; (…) Christ our Lord instituted His Church as a perfect society [a perfect society must be governed by authority], external of its nature and perceptible to the senses, which should carry on in the future the work of the salvation of the human race, under the leadership of one head,[4] with an authority teaching by word of mouth,[5] and by the ministry of the sacraments, the founts of heavenly grace;[6] for which reason He attested by comparison the similarity of the Church to a kingdom,[7] to a house,[8] to a sheepfold,[9] and to a flock.[10] This Church, after being so wonderfully instituted, could not, on the removal by death of its Founder and of the Apostles who were the pioneers in propagating it, be entirely extinguished and cease to be, for to it was given the commandment to lead all men, without distinction of time or place, to eternal salvation: ‘Going therefore, teach ye all nations.’[11] In the continual carrying out of this task, will any element of strength and efficiency be wanting to the Church, when Christ Himself is perpetually present to it, according to His solemn promise: ‘Behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world?’[12] It follows then that the Church of Christ not only exists to-day and always, but also exactly the same as it was in the time of the Apostles, unless we were to say, which God forbid, either that Christ our Lord could not effect His purpose, or that He erred when He asserted that the gates of hell should never prevail against it.[13] (…) So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it: To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it.”
 
If the Church lacks a legitimate hierarchy with the authority to carry out the mission Christ entrusted to His Church, it follows that the Church as Christ founded it no longer exists, which is contrary to the teaching of Pius XI. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Alexandria on August 16, 2019, 03:02:55 PM
Quote
St. John Chrysostom in the Opus imperfectum on Matthew in Homily XLIX on Mt 24 says that the destruction of the Church will parallel the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70. The hosts of Titus in A.D. 70 are hosts of heretics at that time. Most Jҽωs were killed in A.D. 70, and the rest scattered all over the world. Most Catholics will be spiritually killed at that time, and the rest scattered all over the world. Following St. John Chrysostom, "the" Antichrist is not a single person but is the hosts of heretics.
Is the above your own thought or did you copy it from St. John Chrysostom?  If the latter, do you have a link?
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Alexandria on August 16, 2019, 03:06:29 PM
Struthio, how much time have you devoted to studying all of this? 

The above shouldn't be taken in an insulting manner.  It is a sincere question.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 03:58:42 PM
Satis Cognitum, Leo XIII: “[...]”

If the Church lacks a legitimate hierarchy with the authority to carry out the mission Christ entrusted to His Church, it follows that the Church as Christ founded it no longer exists, which is contrary to the teaching of Pius XI.  

Papal teaching is sure better than an encyclopedia. The original Latin of Satis Cognitum can be found in the ACTA SANCTAE SEDIS on vatican.va:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ass/index_ge.htm (ASS 28, 1895-96)
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ass/documents/ASS-28-1895-96-ocr.pdf

At a first glance, the English translation is rather poor. E.g. the first "to the end of time" doesn't exist in the Latin.

It may take some time to reply to all your highlighted statements. You'll have to be patient.

For the time being, let me say that I do not expect that it will be possible to understand Leo XIII as contradicting Pastor aeternus of the Vatican Council, saying that there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi".


Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 04:05:42 PM
Is the above your own thought or did you copy it from St. John Chrysostom?  If the latter, do you have a link?

It's my summary of what St. John Chrysostom says. As far as I know, there is no translation of Homily XLIX of the Opus imperfectum into a modern language. The Latin can be easily found online.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 04:06:51 PM
Struthio, how much time have you devoted to studying all of this?  

The above shouldn't be taken in an insulting manner.  It is a sincere question.

I studied this in my spare time during the past seven years or so.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Praeter on August 16, 2019, 07:23:03 PM
For the time being, let me say that I do not expect that it will be possible to understand Leo XIII as contradicting Pastor aeternus of the Vatican Council, saying that there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi".

Leo XIII certainly doesn't contradict Pastor Aeternus. What he does contradict is your understanding of consummationem saeculi (consummation of the world), which is based on nothing but your own private interpretation of Scripture, and differs from how the Church has always understood it.  
 
It is also contrary to the obvious sense of Scripture.
 
Here's the Scripture passage you relied on for your interpretation of "consummation of the world :  “And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?”  
 
Based on that you conclude: "Here we have the answer. The consummation will start with the abomination of desolation in the last days of tribulation before the second coming of Our Lord.:
 
But the apostles didn't ask Christ when "his coming and the consummation of the world" would start. They asked for the sign that would precede the events.  The abomination of desolation was one of over a dozen signs that Christ gives them, but none of the signs referred to the "start" of the consummation of the world, and more than they referred to the "start" of His second coming..  They were are all signs that will precede the events.
 
Next, you privately interpret the "abomination of desolation" as referring to The Robber Council.  Then, you join your two private interpretations of Scripture together and use them to interpret Pastor Aeternus' teaching that "there will be shepherds until the consummation of the world" as meaning "there will be shepherds until The Robber Council," which you now apparently consider the definitive meaning intended by the Council Fathers.  
 
Lastly, based on your most recent comment (above), it seems as though you would consider Leo XIII to be contradicting Vatican I, if anything he teaches conflicts with your interpretation of Pastor Aeternus.  
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 10:08:45 PM
@Praeter

From your recent post:

Leo XIII certainly doesn't contradict Pastor Aeternus. What he does contradict is your understanding of consummationem saeculi (consummation of the world)

No he does not. See comments below on your previous post.




Quote from: Praeter, translation of Satis Cognitum, Leo XIII
And, since it was necessary that His divine mission should be perpetuated to the end of time, He took to Himself Disciples, trained by himself, and made them partakers of His own authority.

The Latin original does not say "perpetuated to the end of time" but "perenne ac perpetuum", which does not specify an end. So this is not pertinent to our question.


Quote from: Praeter, translation of Satis Cognitum, Leo XIII
But, as we have already said, the Apostolic mission was not destined to die with the Apostles themselves, or to come to an end in the course of time [...] but for all time (sed in omne tempus) – ‘even to the consummation of the world’.

The latin reads: "sed in omne tempus, usque ad consummationem saeculi". Obviously "in omne tempus" does not mean "in all eternity" or "until the last second of the era of this world", since it is explicitly qualified by an end: until the consummation.

"come to an end in the course of time" is the translation of "aut cum tempore labi" which means "(neither die with the Apostles nor) stagger later". To claim that it includes a statement about our question is rather daring.


Quote from: Praeter, translation of Satis Cognitum, Leo XIII
Upon which St. Jerome says: ‘He who promises to remain with His Disciples to the end of the world declares that they will be forever victorious, and that He will never depart from those who believe in Him’ (In Matt., lib. iv., cap. 28, v. 20).”

The latin reads: "Quam ad rem Hieronymus: Qui usque ad consummationem saeculi cum discipulis ...". Again, again, and again: "usque ad consummationem saeculi" is translated by "end of the world".

"to the end of the world" does not mean "to the last second of the era of this world" but rather "usque ad consummationem saeculi".


Quote from: Praeter
Notice, the apostolic mission will last until “the end of time”

Not in the Latin original.

Quote from: Praeter
and will not come to an end “in the course of time.”

Not in the Latin original.


Quote from: Praeter
Also notice that he confirms his statement that the Church will last “for all time,” by quoting Christ’s statement that He will be with the Church “even to the consummation of the world.” This shows that Leo XIII understand “the consummation of the world” to refer to the actual end of time, not a point during the course of time.

"for all time even to the consummation" obviously means that the consummation (whether point in time or time span) ends the "all time"-period.


Quote from: Praeter
That’s how the Church and her theologians have always interpreted the phrase.

I don't agree. The Church obviously has diligently chosen our Lord's own words from scripture to speak of the "end of time". You just have to look at the Latin texts. Not only scripture (translated by St Hieronymus), also Pope Leo XIII and St Hieronymus in Matt. carefully and accurately do not forget to use the term "consummatio saeculi".


Conclusion: Satis Cognitum does not prove your objection. Satis Cognitum does not say or imply that "consummatio saeculi" is a point in time, or the last microsecond of the era of this world. You have not presented an alternative definition of "consummatio saeculi".


P.S.: A comment on your recent post will follow. I'll postpone comments on the visibility-part and Pius XI.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 11:37:39 PM
Quote from: Praeter
Here's the Scripture passage you relied on for your interpretation of "consummation of the world :  “And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?” 

Based on that you conclude: "Here we have the answer. The consummation will start with the abomination of desolation in the last days of tribulation before the second coming of Our Lord.:

But the apostles didn't ask Christ when "his coming and the consummation of the world" would start. They asked for the sign that would precede the events.  The abomination of desolation was one of over a dozen signs that Christ gives them, but none of the signs referred to the "start" of the consummation of the world, and more than they referred to the "start" of His second coming..  They were are all signs that will precede the events.

I rely on Our Lord's answer. He first announces several things to come before the end (sed nondum est finis). Then, starting with verse 14 he says:

Quote
And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand. ... let them flee to the mountains ... let him not go back to take his coat ... For there shall be then great tribulation ... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.

When he says "and then shall the consummation come", he obviously is talking about the consummation the disciples asked for, the consummation of the world. And what he describes immєdιαtly after saying "and then shall the consummation come" self-evidently is what constitutes the consummation.

If you don't agree, so be it. But so far, you haven't made your opinion plausible, that the Church takes "usque ad consummatio" to mean "until the last microsecond of the era of this world". You just act as if one had to take your opinion for granted. The truth is, that neither the Vatican Council, nor Leo XIII, nor Jerome define or explain what "usque ad consummatio" exactly means. But Mt 24 does.


Quote from: Praeter
Next, you privately interpret the "abomination of desolation" as referring to The Robber Council.  Then, you join your two private interpretations of Scripture together and use them to interpret Pastor Aeternus' teaching that "there will be shepherds until the consummation of the world" as meaning "there will be shepherds until The Robber Council," which you now apparently consider the definitive meaning intended by the Council Fathers.

No, I don't "privately interpret". That's not the case. Rather, I publicly state my opinion, I publicly state that I have come to the conclusion that the Robber Council is the abomination of desolation. If you disagree, then we still can debate the question what the consummation exactly is. Whether we're living in the time of tribulation or not, the question up to which point shepherds are promised, is independent of your or my assessment of the current situation.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: trad123 on August 17, 2019, 12:52:10 AM
Quote
Ok, shepherds and teachers up to the consummation of the world.

Now, what exactly does consummatio saeculi mean?


St. Thomas Aquinas

CONTRA GENTILES

BOOK TWO: CREATION

https://dhspriory.org/thomas/english/ContraGentiles2.htm#84


Quote
Chapter 84

SOLUTION OF THE PRECEDING ARGUMENTS

6.

(. . .)

the consummation or perfection of creatures


St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa Theologica
Question 73. The things that belong to the seventh day
Article 1. Whether the completion of the Divine works ought to be ascribed to the seventh day?

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1073.htm#article1

Quote
Now the final perfection, which is the end of the whole universe, is the perfect beatitude of the Saints at the consummation of the world; and the first perfection is the completeness of the universe at its first founding, and this is what is ascribed to the seventh day.



St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa Theologica
Question 77. The time and manner of the resurrection
Article 1. Whether the time of our resurrection should be delayed till the end of the world?

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5077.htm#article1

Quote
"God has provided something better for us, lest they should be consummated," i.e. perfected



St. Augustine

Letter 208 (A.D. 423)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102208.htm

Quote
2. I exhort you, therefore, not to be too much troubled by those offenses which for this very reason were foretold as destined to come, that when they came we might remember that they had been foretold, and not be greatly disconcerted by them. For the Lord Himself in His gospel foretold them, saying, "Woe unto the world because of offenses! For it must needs be that offenses come; but woe unto that man by whom the offense comes!" Matthew 18:7 These are the men of whom the apostle said, "They seek their own, not the things that are Jesus Christ's." Philippians 2:21 There are, therefore, some who hold the honourable office of shepherds in order that they may provide for the flock of Christ; others occupy that position that they may enjoy the temporal honours and secular advantages connected with the office. It must needs happen that these two kinds of pastors, some dying, others succeeding them, should continue in the Catholic Church even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord. If, then, in the times of the apostles there were men such that Paul, grieved by their conduct, enumerates among his trials, "perils among false brethren," 1 Corinthians 11:26 and yet he did not haughtily cast them out, but patiently bore with them, how much more must such arise in our times, since the Lord most plainly says concerning this age which is drawing to a close, "that because iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold." Matthew 24:12-13 The word which follows, however, ought to console and exhort us, for He adds, "He that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved."


Pius IX

1858

On Priests and the Care of Souls

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9amant1.htm

Quote
Christ’s love towards men was so great that not only was He willing to endure most cruel sufferings for our salvation and an atrocious death on the cross, but also He wished to nourish us eternally in the sacrament of His body and blood. In this way, He might strengthen us by the presence of His divinity and be the safest bulwark of our spiritual life. And not content to have loved us with such an outstanding and truly divine love, He heaped benefits on benefits, poured out the riches of His love upon us, and, as you know so well, having loved His own He loved them to the end. For, declaring Himself to be an eternal Priest according to the order of Melchisedech, He instituted permanently His priesthood in the Catholic Church. He decreed that that same sacrifice which He performed is to redeem the whole human race from the yoke of sin to reconcile all things in heaven and earth, and to remain until the consummation of the world. He decreed that it be renewed and take plaice daily by the ministry of the priesthood. Only the reason for the offering is diverse, namely, that the salvific and most abundant fruits of His passion might forever be dispersed upon mankind.


Leo XIII

1902

On the Education of the Clergy

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13fidal.htm


Quote
3.

(. . .)

The Catholic priesthood-divine in its origin, supernatural in its essence, immutable in its character, is not an institution that can accommodate itself with ease to human systems and opinions. A participation of the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ, it must perpetuate even to the consummation of ages the same mission that the Eternal Father confided to His Incarnate Word: “Sicut misit me Pater, et ego mitto vos.”‘ To work the eternal salvation of souls will always be the great commandment of which it must never fall short, as to faithfully fulfil it, it must never cease to have recourse to those supernatural aids and those divine rules of thought and of action which Jesus Christ gave His Apostles when He sent them throughout the whole world to convert the nations to the Gospel.




St. John of Damascus

An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (Book II)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/33042.htm

Quote
Seven ages of this world are spoken of, that is, from the creation of the heaven and earth till the general consummation and resurrection of men. For there is a partial consummation, viz., the death of each man: but there is also a general and complete consummation, when the general resurrection of men will come to pass. And the eighth age is the age to come.



St. Chrysostom

Homily 20 on Matthew

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200120.htm


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But besides this, the delay itself is not long; nay, for those things are at the doors, and we know not but that even in our own generation all things which concern us may have their accomplishment, and that fearful day may arrive, setting before us the awful and incorruptible tribunal.

Yea, for the more part of the signs are fulfilled, and the gospel moreover has been preached in all parts of the world, and the predictions of wars, and of earthquakes, and of famines, have come to pass, and the interval is not great.But is it that thou dost not see any signs? Why, this self-same thing is a very great sign.

For neither did they in Noah's time see any presages of that universal destruction, but in the midst of their playing, eating, marrying, doing all things to which they were used, even so they were overtaken by that fearful judgment. And they too in sơdơm in like manner, living in delight, and suspecting none of what befell them, were consumed by those lightnings, which then came down upon them.

Considering then all these things, let us betake ourselves unto the preparation for our departure hence. For even if the common day of the consummation never overtake us, the end of each one is at the doors, whether he be old or young; and it is not possible for men after they have gone hence, either to buy oil any more, or to obtain pardon by prayers, though he that entreats be Abraham, Luke 16:24 or Noah, or Job, or Daniel. Ezekiel 14:14



Tertullian

On the Resurrection of the Flesh

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0316.htm

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Chapter 40

(. . .)

Now the inward man will have, of course, to be renewed by the suggestion of the Spirit, advancing by faith and holiness day after day, here in this life, not there after the resurrection, were our renewal is not a gradual process from day to day, but a consummation once for all complete.


St. Augustine

The City of God (Book XX)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm

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Chapter 16.— Of the New Heaven and the New Earth.

(. . .)

For as soon as those who are not written in the book of life have been judged and cast into eternal fire — the nature of which fire, or its position in the world or universe, I suppose is known to no man, unless perhaps the divine Spirit reveal it to some one — then shall the figure of this world pass away in a conflagration of universal fire, as once before the world was flooded with a deluge of universal water. And by this universal conflagration the qualities of the corruptible elements which suited our corruptible bodies shall utterly perish, and our substance shall receive such qualities as shall, by a wonderful transmutation, harmonize with our immortal bodies, so that, as the world itself is renewed to some better thing, it is fitly accommodated to men, themselves renewed in their flesh to some better thing.

(. . .)

For then there shall be no more of this world, no more of the surgings and restlessness of human life, and it is this which is symbolized by the sea.



St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa Theologica,

Question 74. The fire of the final conflagration

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5074.htm#article1

Article 1. Whether the world is to be cleansed?

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Since the world was, in a way, made for man's sake, it follows that, when man shall be glorified in the body, the other bodies of the world shall also be changed to a better state, so that it is rendered a more fitting place for him and more pleasant to look upon. Now in order that man obtain the glory of the body, it behooves first of all those things to be removed which are opposed to glory.

Article 2. Whether the cleansing of the world will be effected by fire?


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As stated above (Article 1) this cleansing of the world will remove from it the stain contracted from sin, and the impurity resulting from mixture, and will be a disposition to the perfection of glory; and consequently in this threefold respect it will be most fitting for it to be effected by fire.


Article 4. Whether that fire will cleanse also the higher heavens?

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The cleansing of the world will be for the purpose of removing from bodies the disposition contrary to the perfection of glory, and this perfection is the final consummation of the universe


St. Augustine

Exposition on Psalm 65

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801065.htm

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9.

(. . .)

For the sea by a figure is spoken of this world, with saltness bitter, with storms troubled; where men of perverse and depraved appetites have become like fishes devouring one another. Observe the evil sea, bitter sea, with waves violent, observe with what sort of men it is filled. Who desires an inheritance except through the death of another? Who desires gain except by the loss of another? By the fall of others how many men wish to be exalted? How many, in order that they may buy, desire for other men to sell their goods? How they mutually oppress, and how they that are able do devour! And when one fish has devoured, the greater the less, itself also is devoured by some greater....Because evil fishes that were taken within the nets they said they would not endure; they themselves have become more evil than they whom they said they could not endure. For those nets did take fishes both good and evil.

The Lord says, "The kingdom of Heaven is like to a net cast into the sea, which gathers of every kind, which, when it had been filled, drawing out, and sitting on the shore, they gathered the good into vessels, but the evil they cast out: so it shall be," He says, "in the consummation of the world." Matthew 13:47-49

He shows what is the shore, He shows what is the end of the sea. "The angels shall go forth, and shall sever the evil from the midst of the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."



St. Augustine

The City of God (Book XXI)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120121.htm

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15.

(. . .)

For as by the sin of one man we have fallen into a misery so deplorable, so by the righteousness of one Man, who also is God, shall we come to a blessedness inconceivably exalted. Nor ought any one to trust that he has passed from the one man to the other until he shall have reached that place where there is no temptation, and have entered into the peace which he seeks in the many and various conflicts of this war, in which "the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh." Galatians 5:17

Now, such a war as this would have had no existence if human nature had, in the exercise of free will, continued steadfast in the uprightness in which it was created. But now in its misery it makes war upon itself, because in its blessedness it would not continue at peace with God; and this, though it be a miserable calamity, is better than the earlier stages of this life, which do not recognize that a war is to be maintained. For better is it to contend with vices than without conflict to be subdued by them.

Better, I say, is war with the hope of peace everlasting than captivity without any thought of deliverance.

We long, indeed, for the cessation of this war,

(. . .)

But if (which God forbid) there had been no hope of so blessed a consummation, we should still have preferred to endure the hardness of this conflict, rather than, by our non-resistance, to yield ourselves to the dominion of vice.



St. Gregory of Nyssa

On the Making of Man

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2914.htm

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XVI. A contemplation of the Divine utterance which said — "Let us make man after our image and likeness"

17. Now just as any particular man is limited by his bodily dimensions, and the peculiar size which is conjoined with the superficies of his body is the measure of his separate existence, so I think that the entire plenitude of humanity was included by the God of all, by His power of foreknowledge, as it were in one body, and that this is what the text teaches us which says, "God created man, in the image of God created He him."

For the image is not in part of our nature, nor is the grace in any one of the things found in that nature, but this power extends equally to all the race: and a sign of this is that mind is implanted alike in all: for all have the power of understanding and deliberating, and of all else whereby the Divine nature finds its image in that which was made according to it: the man that was manifested at the first creation of the world, and he that shall be after the consummation of all, are alike: they equally bear in themselves the Divine image.


(. . .)


XXII. To those who say, "If the resurrection is a thing excellent and good, how is it that it has not happened already, but is hoped for in some periods of time?"

2. You will say then, What is this reason, in accordance with which the change of our painful life to that which we desire does not take place at once, but this heavy and corporeal existence of ours waits, extended to some determinate time, for the term of the consummation of all things, that then man's life may be set free as it were from the reins, and revert once more, released and free, to the life of blessedness and impassibility?


St. Basil

Hexaemeron (Homily 1)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/32011.htm


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4. One day, doubtless, their terrible condemnation will be the greater for all this worldly wisdom, since, seeing so clearly into vain sciences, they have wilfully shut their eyes to the knowledge of the truth. These men who measure the distances of the stars and describe them, both those of the North, always shining brilliantly in our view, and those of the southern pole visible to the inhabitants of the South, but unknown to us; who divide the Northern zone and the circle of the Zodiac into an infinity of parts, who observe with exactitude the course of the stars, their fixed places, their declensions, their return and the time that each takes to make its ʀɛʋօʟutιօn; these men, I say, have discovered all except one thing: the fact that God is the Creator of the universe, and the just Judge who rewards all the actions of life according to their merit. They have not known how to raise themselves to the idea of the consummation of all things, the consequence of the doctrine of judgment, and to see that the world must change if souls pass from this life to a new life. In reality, as the nature of the present life presents an affinity to this world, so in the future life our souls will enjoy a lot conformable to their new condition.


Tatian

Tatian's Address to the Greeks

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0202.htm

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Chapter 6. Christians' Belief in the Resurrection

And on this account we believe that there will be a resurrection of bodies after the consummation of all things; not, as the Stoics affirm, according to the return of certain cycles, the same things being produced and destroyed for no useful purpose, but a resurrection once for all, when our periods of existence are completed, and in consequence solely of the constitution of things under which men alone live, for the purpose of passing judgment upon them.

(. . .)



St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa Theologica
Question 77. The time and manner of the resurrection
Article 1. Whether the time of our resurrection should be delayed till the end of the world?

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5077.htm


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Reply to Objection 1.

(. . .)

Christ's resurrection had to precede the resurrection of others who have all to rise again at the consummation of the world.


The Catechism of the Council of Trent


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ARTICLE VII: FROM THENCE HE SHALL COME TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD

Signs Of The General Judgment

The Sacred Scriptures inform us that the general judgment will be preceded by these three principal signs: the preaching of the Gospel throughout the world, a falling away from the faith, and the coming of Antichrist. This gospel of the kingdom, says our Lord, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come.


Saint John Eudes

THE LIFE AND THE KINGDOM OF JESUS: A TREATISE ON CHRISTIAN PERFECTION . Eudist Ebooks. Kindle Edition.


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The happiness of heaven consists in this alone, and in this alone consists true life on earth: to know, love and honor the Life and Mysteries of Christ. This will be the basis of the account you shall be required to give of yourself at the hour of death. One of the greatest reproaches that will be made against you in that hour, will be the scanty and poor attention and honor you have given to the Life and Mysteries of Jesus.

This will be the Purpose of the Son of God in holding His Universal Judgment at the consummation of time, namely, to exact, by the Power of His Justice, the honor and homage due to His Mysteries by all creatures, and even by His own enemies, before the eyes of heaven and earth. This also is the reason for the existence of hell, that those who shall have failed to honor Christ’s Mysteries on earth by love and free will, will render this necessary tribute in hell through constraint and force, by the Operation of God’s Justice in them.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: roscoe on August 17, 2019, 02:25:52 AM
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: poche on August 17, 2019, 04:45:01 AM
"Lo, I shall be with you until the end of the ages." Jesus' last words to his apostles
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 17, 2019, 09:29:38 AM
Thanks trad123, for posting the quotes concerning the consummatio.

As far as I can see, there is one quote addressing our question, at what time span or point in time the consummatio will happen.

Quote from: St. Augustine
It must needs happen that these two kinds of pastors, some dying, others succeeding them, should continue in the Catholic Church even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord.

Following Augustine, the apostolic succession should continue even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord. This is clearly opposed to my view.

Interestingly though, Augustine distinguishes between "the end of time" and "the judgment". He deems it necessary to add "the judgment" to "the end of time". On the other hand, the Vatican Council does not mention Judgment Day.


To show that I am not forming my opinions out of thin air, ignoring fathers and doctors of the church, here a quote of St. John Chrysostom. His Opus imperfectum can be found there:

http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/page12.html
http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/OpusImperfectum.pdf

The context is Mt 21,24: "For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be." The destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 which John Chrysostom sees as a prefiguration of what will happen at the consummatio mundi:

Quote from: St. John Chrysostom, Opus imperfectum, homily XLIX
Sicut illi tale facinus commiserunt, quale numquam commissum est, nec est committendum: sic et super illos talis sententia venit, qualis numquam venit, nec veniet. Haec aptius est de consummatione mundi suscipere, cujus figura fuit tribulatio illa. Tunc vere talis erit tribulatio, qualis numquam fuit. Tunc dicent homines, Aperiat se terra, et glutiat nos.

In the same way in which they [the Jҽωs] have committed such a crime [deicide] as has never been committed before and never will be committed in the future, in that same way comes the appropriate punishment [destruction of the city and the temple]. This has to be taken as even more apt with respect to the consummation of the world, whose prefiguration was that tribulation [of the Jҽωs]. Then will be a real tribulation, such as never has been. People will say: The earth may open up and swallow us.

(Sorry for my poor English!)

Following John Chrysostom, the tribulation of the Jҽωs in A.D. 70 prefigures the spritual tribulation of the Church at the end of time. In this quote, he equals the consummation of the world with the tribulation.

In my eyes, his homilies on Mt 24 are the most helpful comment on Matthews little apocalypse, I could find so far. To me, they have been the best help to understand the time we witness.

Other than I thought and said before, there is a translation into English on amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Incomplete-Commentary-Matthew-imperfectum-Christian/dp/0830829024/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1566051289&refinements=p_27%3AJames+A.+Kellerman&s=books&sr=1-1&text=James+A.+Kellerman]amazon
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Praeter on August 17, 2019, 10:28:52 AM
No, I don't "privately interpret". That's not the case. Rather, I publicly state my opinion, I publicly state that I have come to the conclusion that the Robber Council is the abomination of desolation.
The Protestant doctrine of private interpretation of Scripture does not mean you keep your interpretation to yourself.  It means you interpret the Scriptures based on your own private judgement, and then use your private interpretation as the basis for your belief.  That is precisely what you are doing.   
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: 2Vermont on August 17, 2019, 02:02:38 PM
The Protestant doctrine of private interpretation of Scripture does not mean you keep your interpretation to yourself.  It means you interpret the Scriptures based on your own private judgement, and then use your private interpretation as the basis for your belief.  That is precisely what you are doing.  
Agreed.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 17, 2019, 07:41:20 PM
No, I don't "privately interpret". That's not the case. Rather, I publicly state my opinion, I publicly state that I have come to the conclusion that the Robber Council is the abomination of desolation.

The Protestant doctrine of private interpretation of Scripture does not mean you keep your interpretation to yourself.  It means you interpret the Scriptures based on your own private judgement, and then use your private interpretation as the basis for your belief.  That is precisely what you are doing.

Please pardon me for not being as well acquainted with Protestant doctrine as you are. As a Catholic I have dogma, the rule of faith, which enables me to recognise and to hold Catholic truth, in the midst of the darkness of so many errors:

Quote from: General Council of Trent: Twenty-Third Session
But It [the holy Synod] hath resolved to condemn whatsoever things are contrary thereunto, in express and specific canons, in the manner following; in order that all men, with the help of Christ, using the rule of faith, may, in the midst of the darkness of so many errors, more easily be able to recognise and to hold Catholic truth.

Using the rule of faith and my own upper storey, I can recognise a robber council as such. So, I can see that there was a most solemn revolt and that virtually all bishops are apostates or modernist heretics.

Then, reading scripture, like Catholics do, I use the comments of the fathers and doctors as well as authorized exegesis of the magisterium of the Church, to make sure I am on the right track.

It is St. John Chrysostom who says that the abominatio desolationis is the hosts of heretics of the Antichrist which will render (reddidit) the souls of many desolate. And I laugh out loud, when freshmen call me a protestant for daring to again use my own upper storey to connect the last two dots.

Same thing with the consummatio saeculi. I won't be bothered when you copy quotes of theologians and Popes, which just show that they have adopted Pastor aeternus, which teaches that there will be shepherds usque ad consummationem saeculi.

trad123 has posted the only quote so far, which addresses our question, at what time span or point in time the consummatio will happen. Up to when shepherds are promised by Our Lord. The only one, which contradicts my opinion. Augustine says usque ad finem saeculi et usque ad Domini iudicium (EPISTOLA 208, A. Feliciae virgini (https://www.augustinus.it/latino/lettere/index2.htm), choose elenchus = 208) As you can see, Augustine distinguishes between finis saeculi and iudicium Domini. Following Augustine, the finis saeculi obviously happens before the iudicium Domini. Also note that Pastor aeternus does not add a iudicium Domini to usque ad consummationem saeculi. So Augustine is opposed to my view, but if my view is correct, then he is not in accord with Pastor aeternus, either.

Then we have John Chrysostom, who equates the consummatio with the great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. (Mt 24,21) which is also annunciated by Daniel: a time shall come such as never was from the time that nations began even until that time. (Dan 12,1) (see my previous post for links)

The Church, as well as theologians worth that designation, well know that Daniel 12 is about the end of the world. The Douay-Rheims bible even has it in the title of the Chapter: Michael shall stand up for the people of God: with other things relating to Antichrist, and the end of the world. At the end of the world, when the scattering of the band of the holy people shall be accomplished, all these things shall be finished. (Dan 12,7) It is absurd to imagine, that a completely scattered band of the holy people is at the same time gathered by shepherds or even a Pope. Pastor aeternus does not only say that there will be shepherds usque ad consummationem saeculi, but also that they fulfill a purpose.


Conclusion: To defend your claim, that there will be shepherds even to the end of the great tribulation, you would have to furnish some sort of evidence other than your seemingly firm conviction.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: trad123 on August 17, 2019, 07:52:51 PM
To show that I am not forming my opinions out of thin air, ignoring fathers and doctors of the church, here a quote of St. John Chrysostom. His Opus imperfectum can be found there:

http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/page12.html
http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/OpusImperfectum.pdf


Why is it that when I click the 2nd link, the PDF, it shows:

Pseudo-Chrysostomus



And why is it that I am reading this:

https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095611597

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Quick Reference

Many sermons have been falsely ascribed to St John Chrysostom; of special interest are those by representatives of heretical movements from which little else survives: three paschal homilies which have been attributed to Apollinaris of Laodicea; two homilies for the octave of Easter which seem to be Anomoean; and the Opus Imperfectum in Matthaeum, a series of Latin homilies by an Arian bishop of the 5th or 6th century.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: trad123 on August 17, 2019, 07:59:21 PM
trad123 has posted the only quote so far, which addresses our question, at what time span or point in time the consummatio will happen.

Why do you ignore every other quote that discusses the consummation? They're just as much against the narrative you're writing about here.

On top of that, you've created a narrative using a text that apparently was written by an Arian heretic, rather than by St. Chrysostom.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 17, 2019, 08:08:46 PM
@trad123

"Pseudo-Chrysostomus", that's a crime committed by Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus, friend of Martin Luther, today celebrated as the "father of humanism".

He has been refuted at his own time already, as can be found in Migne.

There indeed have been copies of the text modified by Arians, but these were recognizable.

In modern times they even doubt most old and new testament authors.


Quote
As Thomas Aquinas was approaching Paris, a fellow traveler pointed out the lovely buildings gracing that city. Aquinas was impressed, to be sure, but he sighed and stated that he would rather have the complete Incomplete Commentary on Matthew than to be mayor of Paris itself. Thomas's affection for the work attests its great popularity  ...

Later more on this topic, if necessary.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 17, 2019, 08:10:35 PM
Why do you ignore every other quote that discusses the consummation? They're just as much against the narrative you're writing about here.

Which one(s) do you deem pertinent to the debate?



On top of that, you've created a narrative using a text that apparently was written by an Arian heretic, rather than by St. Chrysostom.

No, it wasn't. See my previous post.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: trad123 on August 17, 2019, 08:51:54 PM
The consummation refers to the end of the world, which will be it's cleansing by fire, and then follows the General Resurrection and the Last Judgement.

Go back and read all the quotes over again on page 3.


https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg663782/#msg663782



St. John Chrysostom

Homily 9 on First Thessalonians

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230409.htm


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1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2

"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that anything be written unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night."

Nothing, as it seems, is so curious, and so fondly prone to pry into things obscure and concealed, as the nature of men. And this is wont to happen to it, when the mind is unsettled and in an imperfect state. For the simpler sort of children never cease teasing their nurses, and tutors, and parents, with their frequent questions, in which there is nothing else but "when will this be?" and "when that?" And this comes to pass also from living in indulgence, and having nothing to do. Many things therefore our mind is in haste to learn already and to comprehend, but especially concerning the period of the consummation; and what wonder if we are thus affected, for those holy men, themselves, were most of all affected in the same way? And before the Passion, the Apostles come and say to Christ, "Tell us, when shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the world?" Matthew 24:23 And after the Passion and the Resurrection from the dead, they said to Him, Tell us, "dost Thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" From Acts 1:6 And they asked Him nothing sooner than this.

(. . .)

For tell me, what would be the advantage? Let us suppose that the end would be after twenty or thirty or a hundred years, what is this to us? Is not the end of his own life the consummation to every individual? Why are you curious, and travailest about the general end? But the case is the same with us in this, as in other things. For as in other things, leaving our own private concerns, we are anxious about things in general, saying, Such an one is a fornicator, such an one an adulterer, that man has robbed, another has been injurious; but no one takes account of what is his own, but each thinks of anything rather than his own private concerns; so here also, each omitting to take thought about his own end, we are anxious to hear about the general dissolution. Now what concern is that of yours? For if you make your own a good end, you will suffer no harm from the other; be it far off, or be it near. This is nothing to us.

(. . .)

Hear Paul saying, "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night." Not the general day only, but that of every individual. For the one resembles the other, is also akin to it. For what the one does collectively, that the other does partially. For the period of consummation took its beginning from Adam, and then is the end of the consummation; since even now one would not err in calling it a consummation. For when ten thousand die every day, and all await That Day, and no one is raised before it, is it not the work of That Day?




St. John Chrysostom

Homily 20 on Matthew

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200120.htm


Quote
6.

(. . .)


But besides this, the delay itself is not long; nay, for those things are at the doors, and we know not but that even in our own generation all things which concern us may have their accomplishment, and that fearful day may arrive, setting before us the awful and incorruptible tribunal.


Yea, for the more part of the signs are fulfilled, and the gospel moreover has been preached in all parts of the world, and the predictions of wars, and of earthquakes, and of famines, have come to pass, and the interval is not great.But is it that thou dost not see any signs? Why, this self-same thing is a very great sign. For neither did they in Noah's time see any presages of that universal destruction, but in the midst of their playing, eating, marrying, doing all things to which they were used, even so they were overtaken by that fearful judgment.


And they too in sơdơm in like manner, living in delight, and suspecting none of what befell them, were consumed by those lightnings, which then came down upon them.Considering then all these things, let us betake ourselves unto the preparation for our departure hence.

For even if the common day of the consummation never overtake us, the end of each one is at the doors, whether he be old or young; and it is not possible for men after they have gone hence, either to buy oil any more, or to obtain pardon by prayers, though he that entreats be Abraham, Luke 16:24 or Noah, or Job, or Daniel. Ezekiel 14:14While then we have opportunity, let us store up for ourselves beforehand much confidence, let us gather oil in abundance, let us remove all into Heaven, that in the fitting time, and when we most need them, we may enjoy all: by the grace and love towards man of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory, and the might, now and always, and forever and ever. Amen.




St. John Chrysostom

Homily 1 on the Acts of the Apostles

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210101.htm



Quote
What wonder then that He does not signify the day of the final consummation, when this day which was so near He did not choose to reveal? And with good reason; to the end they may be ever wakeful, and in a state of expectation and earnest heed.




St. John Chrysostom

Homily 45 on the Gospel of John

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240145.htm

Quote
John 6:40

(. . .)
"And I will raise him up at the last day." Why does He continually dwell upon the Resurrection? Is it that men may not judge of God's providence by present things alone; that if they enjoy not results here, they become not on that account desponding, but wait for the things that are to come, and that they may not, because their sins are not punished for the present, despise Him, but look for another life.

Now those men gained nothing, but let us take pains to gain by having the Resurrection continually sounded in our ears; and if we desire to be grasping, or to steal, or to do any wrong thing, let us straightway take into our thoughts that Day, let us picture to ourselves the Judgment-seat, for such reflections will check the evil impulse more strongly than any bit. Let us continually say to others, and to ourselves, "There is a resurrection, and a fearful tribunal awaits us."

(. . .)

Perhaps some one will say, When will be the consummation? When will be the Resurrection? See how" long a time has gone by, and nothing of the kind has come to pass?" Yet it shall be, be sure. For those before the flood spoke after this manner, and mocked at Noah, but the flood came and swept away all those unbelievers, but preserved him who believed. And the men of Lot's time expected not that stroke from God, until those lightnings and thunderbolts came down and destroyed them all utterly. Neither in the case of these men, nor of those who lived in the time of Noah, was there any preamble to what was about to happen, but when they were all living daintily, and drinking, and mad with wine, then came these intolerable calamities upon them. So also shall the Resurrection be; not with any preamble, but while we are in the midst of good times.

Wherefore Paul says, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."




St. John Chrysostom

Homily 20 on the Statues

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/190120.htm

Quote
23.
(. . .)

If you will thus school your own sons, they too will instruct their children in turn, and thus this discipline, reaching even to the consummation and appearing of Christ, will bring all that great reward to those who go to the root of the matter. If your son has learned to say, "Believe me;" he will not be able to go up to the theatre, or to enter a tavern, or to spend his time at dice; for that word, lying upon his mouth instead of a bridle, will make him however unwilling feel shame and blush. But if at any time he should appear in these places, it will quickly compel him to retreat.

Suppose some persons laugh. Do thou on the other hand weep for their transgression! Many also once laughed at Noah while he was preparing the ark; but when the flood came, he laughed at them; or rather, the just man never laughed at them at all, but wept and bewailed!

When therefore you see persons laughing, reflect that those teeth, that grin now, will one day have to sustain that most dreadful wailing and gnashing, and that they will remember this same laugh on That Day while they are grinding and gnashing! Then thou too shall remember this laugh! How did the rich man laugh at Lazarus! But afterwards, when he beheld him in Abraham's bosom, he had nothing left to do but to bewail himself



St. John Chrysostom

Homily 23 on First Corinthians

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/220123.htm

Quote
1 Corinthians 10:115.
"Now all these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."
Again he terrifies them speaking of the "ends," and prepares them to expect things greater than had already taken place. "For that we shall suffer punishment is manifest," says he, "from what has been said, even to those who disbelieve the statements concerning hell-fire; but that the punishment also will be most severe, is evident, from the more numerous blessings which we have enjoyed, and from the things of which those were but figures. Since, if in the gifts one go beyond the other, it is most evident that so it will be in the punishment likewise."
For this cause he both called them types, and said that they were "written for us" and made mention of an "end" that he might remind them of the consummation of all things. For not such will be the penalties then as to admit of a termination and be done away, but the punishment will be eternal; for even as the punishments in this world are ended with the present life, so those in the next continually remain. But when he said, "the ends of the ages," he means nothing else than that the fearful judgment is henceforth near at hand.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 17, 2019, 09:02:56 PM
@trad123

I don't reject the idea that part of the consummation will be fire of destruction. Augustine says: the consummation (completion, perfection) of the good may include annihilation of evil.

I went through all of the quotes.

Please be so kind, to not only paste quotes, but to explain in which way you think that they show that the great tribulation cannot be part of the consummation.


Here your first one:

Quote
Many things therefore our mind is in haste to learn already and to comprehend, but especially concerning the period of the consummation;

Please explain, what the problem is!
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 19, 2019, 08:32:20 AM
Quote from: St. John Chrysostom, Opus Imperfectum, Homilia xlviij. ex capite xxiv. (col.900-6)
In consummatione enim gentis Judaeae Jerusalem destructa est, quae tamen videbatur esse Jerusalem, non autem vera erat. In consummatione autem mundi Ecclesia aut desolata, aut desolanda est: adhuc tamen illa quae videbatur Ecclesia, non autem quae vera erat, aut est.

Opus imperfectum (http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/OpusImperfectum.pdf)


In homily XLVIII, speaking about Mt 24,3, where the disciples ask "Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?", Chrysostom explains that in the consummation of the Jєωιѕн race Jerusalem was destroyed, and what actually wasn't Jerusalem anymore, was still perceived to be Jerusalem. Analogously in the consummation of the world: The Church will be desolate or about to be made desolate, and what still will be perceived to be the Church will not be the real thing.

Beside the parallelity, notice that both the destruction of physical Jerusalem and the destruction of spiritual Jerusalem are called a consummation. The latter, the consummatio saeculi (Mt 24,3) or consummatio mundi (Chrys).
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 19, 2019, 01:30:19 PM
In The Apocalypse of St. John Fr. E.S. Berry makes regular reference to the consummation of the world, and he always understands Mat. 28 to indicate Christ's presence as pervading not "up until" but through the consummation of the world.  The same language used in Daniel (the desolation remaining in the temple until the consummation of the world) is taken by Berry to indicate that the desolation (i.e., the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD) will continue forever, meaning that the temple will never be rebuilt.  Anyways, in both cases "until the consummation of the world" is not taken the way Struthio takes it.
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It's an interesting argument, but it does not seem to be supported by anything other than private interpretation.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 19, 2019, 03:30:27 PM
In The Apocalypse of St. John Fr. E.S. Berry [...]

The 1921 book of Berry was mentioned on novusordowatch.org some years ago. A PDF can be downloaded at archive.org:

Rev. E. Sylvester Berry: The Apocalypse of St. John (https://ia800209.us.archive.org/26/items/apocalypseofstjo00berr/apocalypseofstjo00berr.pdf)


Fr. E.S. Berry makes regular reference to the consummation of the world, and he always understands Mat. 28 to indicate Christ's presence as pervading not "up until" but through the consummation of the world.

No, not true. He does not "indicate Christ's presence as pervading through the consummation of the world". He does neither contradict Our Lord in Mt 28,20 nor the Vatican Council in Pastor aeternus who both say "even to the consummation of the world". This is easily verified searching for "consummation" in the PDF.

He does though say that the consummation happens after the time of Antichrist (page 193), and that the Apocalypse tells Church history until the consummation of the world (page 64). This is opposed to the view of St. John Chrysostom in the Opus imperfectum.


The same language used in Daniel (the desolation remaining in the temple until the consummation of the world) is taken by Berry to indicate that the desolation (i.e., the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD) will continue forever, meaning that the temple will never be rebuilt.

I agree, the temple will never be rebuilt. And Berry does not crop the quote of Daniel:

Quote from: Rev. E. Sylvester Berry, page 137
the destruction of the temple by the Roman army in 70 A. D. The destruction then wrought shall be final, - it shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.

Note: even to the consummation, and to the end. Worth mentioning that with respect to the Church and the shepherds, the Vatican Council does not add "and to the end" after "to the consummation", neither does Our Lord in Mt 28,20.


It's an interesting argument, but it does not seem to be supported by anything other than private interpretation.

If you had read my posts, you would have known that my opinion on the topic is the opinion of St. John Chrysostom in the Opus imperfectum. I'd recommend to make up leeway.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 19, 2019, 03:54:26 PM
The 1921 book of Berry was mentioned on novusordowatch.org some years ago. A PDF can be downloaded at archive.org:

Rev. E. Sylvester Berry: The Apocalypse of St. John (https://ia800209.us.archive.org/26/items/apocalypseofstjo00berr/apocalypseofstjo00berr.pdf)


No, not true. He does not "indicate Christ's presence as pervading through the consummation of the world". He does neither contradict Our Lord in Mt 28,20 nor the Vatican Council in Pastor aeternus who both say "even to the consummation of the world". This is easily verified searching for "consummation" in the PDF.
.
Yeah, that's how I drew my conclusion.  The sense in which he discusses Mat. 28 (wherever it comes up in the book) is a sense of Christ's presence enduring throughout, not "up until" the consummation.  For instance in the introduction (page 8 ) he says that Christ's promise is one from which we can draw consolation in the latter days.  But one would not draw consolation in living in a time which Christ foretold would be a time of His absence, would one?  Again on page 93, he appeals to Mat. 28 as something of an assurance that God will raise up great hierarchs during those days.  
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I did not present Berry as though he settled the case, only as an additional voice that may be added to the discussion, and one which I still maintain hardly agrees with you in any clear sense, and on the contrary seems to disagree with you.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 19, 2019, 08:15:06 PM
.
Yeah, that's how I drew my conclusion.  The sense in which he discusses Mat. 28 (wherever it comes up in the book) is a sense of Christ's presence enduring throughout, not "up until" the consummation.  For instance in the introduction (page 8 ) he says that Christ's promise is one from which we can draw consolation in the latter days.  But one would not draw consolation in living in a time which Christ foretold would be a time of His absence, would one?


1. Thank you for supporting the opinion of St. John Chrysostom and of mine, that the consummation includes "the latter days". I assume that "the latter days" signifies the time of tribulation, or as Berry says "the time of the Antichrist" or "those evil days".

2. You misrepresent Berry. Berry says that the consummation happens after the time of the Antichrist (page number in my previous post).

3. You misrepresent Berry. Berry does not say or imply a presence of Christ in the sense of Mt 28,20 "enduring throughout, not up until the consummation". He does not twist the words of Our Lord like you insinuate.

4. You misrepresent Berry. Berry does not say that we can draw consolation in the latter days. The next best similar thing he says is that the prophecies of St John are a source of consolation.


Berry simply holds the same opinion of all my opponents in this thread so far (excepting Mithrandylan). They see the consummation as a rather short event after the time of tribulation. That's how they come to the conclusion that there will be shepherds even during the great tribulation. Including Berry. Berry predicts sede vacante during the tribulation. Some true bishops are left, but no true pope (page 124). And that's before the consummation.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: donkath on August 20, 2019, 02:08:41 AM
I didn't get that out of the conclusion.

If there will be shepherds and teachers, i.e. bishops and priests till the end of time, then Home Aloners (the dogmatic ones), are wrong to think there are no priests left because the end of time has not yet come.  The Home Aloners who stay home because there is no TLM near them but do indeed go to the True Mass when it is possible for them to go, are correct in doing so.

"If there will be shepherds and teachers, i.e. bishops and priests till the end of time, then Home Aloners (the dogmatic ones), are wrong to think there are no priests left because the end of time has not yet come.  The Home Aloners who stay home because there is no TLM near them but do indeed go to the True Mass when it is possible for them to go, are correct in doing so"

How do critics of those who make the decision to be Home Aloners dogmatically assume that HA’s base their decision on whether the end of time has come? 

And why bring in the red herring of a matter not pertaining to the topic namely : of HA’s not attending a TLM near them when the most TLM’s are permitted only under an Indult requiring non-criticism of the NO sacriligeous anti-catholic non-Mass ritual?  

Many non-HA’s also refuse to attend such TLM ‘Masses’.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: donkath on August 20, 2019, 02:40:34 AM
See verse 16. Our Lord speaks about the Paraclete, and not about shepherds.



No. The meaning of the term "consummation of the world", used by the Vatican Council, is given by Our Lord in Mt 28 and Mt 24 (see the opening post).


You suggest again that the consummation identifies a point in time or a very short event before the return of Our Lord. But this idea is based on nothing but on your own fantasy.
"Our Lord speaks about the Paraclete, and not about shepherds".

If, perchance we are left orphaned of having faithful Bishops and Priests available to everyone without exception- these words reassure us that our faith may not only continue intact but deepen to meet the estraordinary needs of the deprived and starving soul wondering which Bishop/priest to believe when the latter believe differently amongst themselves.  

It goes without saying that only under such conditions as exist today where priests and laity disagree with one another (as evidenced on CI) do these words of Our Lord apply because the first priority is the salvation of souls.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on August 21, 2019, 07:07:08 AM
@forlorn

I have mentioned Daniel 9,27 in the opening post. Since you are stubborn, lazy, and verloren (https://translate.google.com/?hl=de#view=home&op=translate&sl=de&tl=en&text=verloren), I look it up and put it right in front of your nose:
Source: drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/32009.htm)

to the consummation, and to the end says the prophet.

As you can see: the consummation happens before the end.

It is a good idea to follow our Lord and read Daniel, when we see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.


(The text is about the temple in Jerusalem, destroyed in A.D. 70, not reerected until today.)


Struthio,

Are you familiar with the Septuagint? It has a very interesting translation of Daniel 9:27 - this is from The Apostolic Bible, First Edition (1996), published by The Apostolic Press. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on August 21, 2019, 07:16:28 AM
No, Stubborn, not true.

I was told that the sedevacantist position seems unlikely, since Pastor aeternus refers to Our Lord's promise not to leave us as orphans. Then I checked what Pastor aeternus really teaches.

It's not "theological gymnastics" to ask what exactly the Council means when saying usque ad consummationem saeculi.

I was quite astonished to find support for home-alonism.


True, I agree. When I say that the consummation has already begun, then that's an observation of mine and not a statement of the Vatican Council. Taking the comments of St. John Chrysostom and the Robber Council as I see it, I come to the conclusion that it has begun.


Prophecy is clear. In the end "the band of the holy people" will be "scattered" (Dan 12,7). The function of the shepherds, and the Pope, is to gather the "holy people", not scatter them. But they will be scattered.

Also, Our Lord himself says: "And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened." (Mt 24,22) Does that sound like we have to expect flourishing parishes, shepherds and a Pope, when Our Lord returns?

Indeed. When the shepherd is struck, the sheep are scattered.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on August 21, 2019, 07:54:01 AM
Another translation of Daniel 9:27 in the Septuagint:


Quote
27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Daniel/index.htm (http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Daniel/index.htm)
(http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Daniel/index.htm)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 22, 2019, 07:59:17 AM
Are you familiar with the Septuagint?

No, not at all. I don't understand Greek.


It has a very interesting translation of Daniel 9:27

What are your conclusions from the translations you've posted?
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 22, 2019, 09:07:09 AM
@Praeter

Concerning your quotes of Leo XIII: Satis Cognitum on the visibility of the Church.

If there are no shepherds during the time of tribulation before the return of Our Lord, then this doesn't mean that the Church has become invisible. Rather, the Church suffers an eclipse. If some can't see a visible object, then this doesn't make the object invisible. Jerome says about the religion of God at the time of the Maccabees that it suffered an eclipse (see St. Jerome, Commentary on Daniel (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm)). And Antiochus Epiphanes is a prefiguration of Antichrist.


Quote from: Praeter
Leo XIII also teaches that the Church is to remain visible to the end of time:

Satis Cognitum, LeoXIII: “… the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ – ‘Now you are the body of Christ’ (I Cor. xii., 27) - and precisely because it is a body is the Church visible: (…) those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error: (…)

If there are no shepherds during the time of tribulation before the return of Our Lord, then this doesn't imply that the Church doesn't exist anymore or is not a body anymore.


Quote from: Praeter
[Leo XIII:] The connection and union of both elements [i.e., visible and invisible] is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.

If there are no shepherds during the time of tribulation before the return of Our Lord, then the Church isn't necessarily dead. There still are faithful and there still are sanctifying graces by Baptism, Reconciliation (perfect Contrition, Trent, Session 14, Chapter IV), Eucharist (spiritually, see Trent, Session 13, Chapter VIII), and Marriage.


Quote from: Praeter
[Leo XIII:]As Christ, the Head and Exemplar, is not wholly in His visible human nature, which Photinians and Nestorians assert, nor wholly in the invisible divine nature, as the Monophysites hold, but is one, from and in both natures, visible and invisible; so the mystical body of Christ is the true Church, only because its visible parts draw life and power from the supernatural gifts and other things whence spring their very nature and essence. But since the Church is such by divine will and constitution, such it must uniformly remain to the end of time (in aeternitate temporum). If it did not, then it would not have been founded as perpetual, and the end set before it would have been limited to some certain place and to some certain period of time (locorum esset temporumque certo spatio defintlus); both of which are contrary to the truth. The union consequently of visible and invisible elements because it harmonizes with the natural order and by God's will belongs to the very essence of the Church, must necessarily remain so long as the Church itself shall endure.

There is no problem here. A lack of shepherds during the time of tribulation would not contradict these teachings. The union of visible and invisible elements is not destroyed, if there are no shepherds during the great tribulation.


Conclusion: The teaching of Leo XIII in Satis Cognitum on the visibility of the Church does not imply that the opinion of John Chrysostom has to be rejected. If the consummation of the world starts with the abomination of desolation and lasts through the great tribulation, then the Church is still in the same sense visible, with or without shepherds.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on August 22, 2019, 11:13:05 AM

No, not at all. I don't understand Greek.


What are your conclusions from the translations you've posted?

Struthio,

The Septuagint supports the view that the "consummation" is a period of time, not a dot, a densely confined instant of time (occurring during hour(s) on a single day) on a timeline.

Most importantly, this is confirmed by the Vulgate, Hebrews 9:26 -

 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=9&l=26-#x)
Quote
[26] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=65&ch=9&l=26-#x) For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.
alioquin oportebat eum frequenter pati ab origine mundi : nunc autem semel in consummatione saeculorum, ad destitutionem peccati, per hostiam suam apparuit.

http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/65009.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/65009.htm)

The "consummation" began and was signaled and triggered by Our Lord's death and crucifixion - John 19:30 ("Consummatum est"). It is the period of the consummation, the end of the Old Covenant age, the destruction of Jerusalem in its "midst," and the judgment on the Temple and people of the Old Covenant. The latter age, the last times - the time of the Catholic Church and the New Covenant.

I agree with you that this pattern of the appearance of the "abomination of desolation" in the Jєωιѕн Temple is mirrored the New Covenant Age in the sense that there will likewise appear an "abomination of desolation" in the New Temple that will signal when "the completion shall be given to the desolation" (Septuagint), which I believe is the whole period of the last age, the last times (see Acts 2:16-20). This is spoken of by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, where he speak of the great "discessio," the schismatic revolt, and the appearance of the "son of perdition" (cf. the other "son of perdition," the betrayer Judas), in the temple of God - what else is the Temple of God in the New Covenant but the See of Rome? If not Rome, how would we "see" it; no other single church could suffice for the identification.  I agree with you generally that this is associated with Vatican II, or Paul VI.

Here is a critical verse, Matthew 24:22 -

Quote
[22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=47&ch=24&l=22-#x) And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.
Et nisi breviati fuissent dies illi, non fieret salva omnis caro : sed propter electos breviabuntur dies illi.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm)

Unless those day are shortened, "no flesh should be saved." I interpret that to mean that there will be at least one living human being, one of the elect, alive in the flesh when Christ returns. The implication of that is staggering. I think it has something to do with the failure of the provision of sacramental grace by the Church for a length of time that will not exceed the lifespan of a human being, so that someone, at least one, will remain on earth when Christ returns who has received that grace from the Church (the valid and licit Eucharist?). This period must be capped or shortened to the lifespan of a human being, otherwise their would be no living person to be saved when Christ returned.

These are tentative thoughts of course. I look forward to discussing further with you.

DR
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 23, 2019, 09:20:33 AM
DecemRationis,

yes, in various biblical passages the term consummation (completion, perfection) does signify a procedure, taking a certain amount of time. In John 19,30 (http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50019.htm) the passion of Our Lord is completed, and the old covenant is irreparably broken. And in your other quote (Hebr 9,26 (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/65009.htm)) the Apostle even has the consummation of the world (consummatio saeculi) last through the time of the Gentiles, the time of the Church.

Now, the Vatican Council, in Pastor aeternus, saying it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the world, obviously does not speak about the consummation of the world in the same sense in which the Apostle does, but rather with respect to a shorter time span close to the end. Following Denzinger/Hünermann the fathers of the Vatican Council refer to the very last words of the Gospel of Matthew Mt 28,20 (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47028.htm) and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Additionally, in the Olivet Apocalypse as told by Matthew, Our Lord himself says And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come (Mt 24,14 (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm)). I assume that most would agree, that Pastor aeternus refers to that same consummation of the world, though some say that it doesn't start with the abomination of desolation, but at some later point, maybe not before Judgment Day.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 23, 2019, 09:38:34 AM
Unless those day are shortened, "no flesh should be saved." I interpret that to mean that there will be at least one living human being, one of the elect, alive in the flesh when Christ returns.

Yes, or maybe at least two or three, to make sure the word scattered in Dan 12 makes sense.


Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on August 23, 2019, 10:01:32 AM

DecemRationis,

yes, in various biblical passages the term consummation (completion, perfection) does signify a procedure, taking a certain amount of time. In John 19,30 (http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50019.htm) the passion of Our Lord is completed, and the old covenant is irreparably broken. And in your other quote (Hebr 9,26 (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/65009.htm)) the Apostle even has the consummation of the world (consummatio saeculi) last through the time of the Gentiles, the time of the Church.

Now, the Vatican Council, in Pastor aeternus, saying it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the world, obviously does not speak about the consummation of the world in the same sense in which the Apostle does, but rather with respect to a shorter time span close to the end. Following Denzinger/Hünermann the fathers of the Vatican Council refer to the very last words of the Gospel of Matthew Mt 28,20 (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47028.htm) and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Additionally, in the Olivet Apocalypse as told by Matthew, Our Lord himself says And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come (Mt 24,14 (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm)). I assume that most would agree, that Pastor aeternus refers to that same consummation of the world, though some say that it doesn't start with the abomination of desolation, but at some later point, maybe not before Judgment Day.

Struthio,

I'll speak first as to the Biblical references. 

Mt 28.20 (rendered "end of the world") is the phrase, "consummationem saeculi," in Latin; Hebrews 9.26 (rendered "end of the ages") is phrase, "consummatione saeculorum," in Latin. Are they not the same phrase in a different verbal form? Does the form render a difference in meaning here? Why does "world" in Mt. 28.20 become "ages" in Hebrews 9.26? 

If we are talking about two time periods, one consummation occurred at the Cross (Hebrews 9.26), and one later (Mt. 28.20). This is possible. As I said, the Old Covenant is mirrored in the New and what befell Israel and the Old Temple will befall the New when a similarly apparent and false hierarchy engages in the apostasy/schism called the "discessio" in 2 Thessalonians 2. 

Clearly Pastor aeternus is not talking about the consummation referenced in Hebrews 9.26, I agree. 

Shall we say there are two, parallel and to a large extent mirrored "consummations" and desolations (or "abominations of desolation")?

There is nothing knew under the sun, and what happened to them (Israel) is an example or model for what is to happen to us (Rom. 15.4, I Cor. 10.11), with the faithful to the Lamb being saved in each case and under each dispensation. 

Finally, as to Mt. 24.14 . . . that adds an interesting wrinkle. The Gospel was preached to the "whole world" - all the scattered Jҽωs, the Roman empire - before the destruction of Jerusalem - such is one interpretation mentioned in Haydock, for example. In fact, according to Haydock, the interpretation of your man of the Opus Imperfectum, St. John C - see attached. 

Hmmm. That - well, all of this - needs some reflection. 

DR
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 23, 2019, 11:42:23 AM
Now, the Vatican Council, in Pastor aeternus, saying it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the world,

Mt 28,20 (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47028.htm) and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
If you take Pastor Aeternus to mean that the shepherds and teachers will no longer be there during the consummation, then you would also have to take Mt 28:20 to mean that Christ will no longer be with us during the consummation. Which is a ridiculous position, of course. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 23, 2019, 12:52:58 PM
If you take Pastor Aeternus to mean that the shepherds and teachers will no longer be there during the consummation, then you would also have to take Mt 28:20 to mean that Christ will no longer be with us during the consummation. Which is a ridiculous position, of course.


Why would you want to call a position ridiculous, which takes Our Lord's words


Quote from: Mt 28,20
[...] behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

to mean what they say?

By quoting "usque ad consummationem saeculi", the Vatican Council authoritatively interprets these words of Our Lord to refer to his presence by means of the shepherds.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 23, 2019, 12:57:29 PM
If you take Pastor Aeternus to mean that the shepherds and teachers will no longer be there during the consummation, then you would also have to take Mt 28:20 to mean that Christ will no longer be with us during the consummation. Which is a ridiculous position, of course.


Isn't rather the opposing position absurd? A scattered remnant — gathered by shepherds.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 23, 2019, 01:16:22 PM

Isn't rather the opposing position absurd? A scattered remnant — gathered by shepherds.
My point is that your interpretation of what "until the consummation" cannot be right, as the exact same words are used by Christ and it would mean that Christ would abandon us in the consummation using your interpretation. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 23, 2019, 01:35:25 PM
My point is that your interpretation of what "until the consummation" cannot be right, as the exact same words are used by Christ and it would mean that Christ would abandon us in the consummation using your interpretation.

I have responded to that in the post before my most recent one. How do you answer to that one (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg664409/#msg664409)?
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 23, 2019, 05:01:51 PM
By quoting "usque ad consummationem saeculi", the Vatican Council authoritatively interprets these words of Our Lord to refer to his presence by means of the shepherds.
It doesn't. It just means that the hierarchy will also always be with us just as Christ will be. To say that usque ad consummationem saeculi means until, and not including, the consummation means that Christ would abandon us during the consummation. There's no way around that, the same phrase is used in both Vatican I's promise and Christ's promise. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 23, 2019, 08:59:23 PM
By quoting "usque ad consummationem saeculi", the Vatican Council authoritatively interprets these words of Our Lord to refer to his presence by means of the shepherds.

It doesn't.

The Vatican council says that Our Lord promised to be with the militant Church "omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi" (all days until the consummation of the world) in Dei Filius and that "ita in Ecclesia sua Pastores et Doctores usque ad consummationem saeculi esse voluit" (it was his will that there be shepherds and teachers in his Church until the consummation of the world) in Pastor aeternus.

This obviously refers to Mt 28,20. There is no other promise of Our Lord this could refer to. I don't understand why you disagree.


It just means that the hierarchy will also always be with us just as Christ will be.

Yes, but to be more specific: All days until the consummation of the world. Why do you crop the clear words of Our Lord and of the Vatican Council to "always", which is a disfiguration? Why would anyone want to accept your words and reject the words of Our Lord and his Church?


To say that usque ad consummationem saeculi means until, and not including, the consummation means that Christ would abandon us during the consummation.

It means that in Mt 28,20 Christ did promise his presence until the consummation, and that he did not promise his presence during the consummation. And yes, insofar as shepherds and teachers are not promised for the time span of the consummation, one would or could expect to be without such during that period.


There's no way around that, the same phrase is used in both Vatican I's promise and Christ's promise.

Yes indeed. But, not promising his presence by means of his shepherds during the consummation, does not mean that the sheep are abandoned. There is e.g. the Paraclet. On the other hand, as prophecised by Daniel and by Our Lord himself, a great tribulation will make things very difficult, even for the elect.


https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-ix/la/documents/constitutio-dogmatica-dei-filius-24-aprilis-1870.html
https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-ix/la/documents/constitutio-dogmatica-pastor-aeternus-18-iulii-1870.html
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 23, 2019, 10:53:18 PM
(https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53040.0;attach=13248;image)

A PDF file of the commentary of George Leo Haydock can be downloaded here (https://isidore.co/calibre/get/pdf/Haydock%20Catholic%20Bible%20Commentary%20%28New%20Testament%29%20-%20Haydock%2C%20George%20Leo_2904.pdf).

It seems that Haydock ignores the Opus imperfectum (at least he doesn't seem to know more than what St. Thomas quotes in his Catena aurea). He refers to a different series of 90 Homilies of Chrysostom which can be found at newadvent.org (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2001.htm).

The Opus imperfectum differs, insofar as Mt 24 is consequently read as addressed to the generation of the listeners  of Our Lord on Mount Olivet at that time, the generation which would not pass before Jerusalem is destroyed in 70 A.D.; as well as at the same time addressed to the generation of those who will witness the abomination of desolation in the holy place before the return of Our Lord. Both generations will not pass before the respective announced events will have happened.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 24, 2019, 06:55:19 AM
It doesn't.

The Vatican council says that Our Lord promised to be with the militant Church "omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi" (all days until the consummation of the world) in Dei Filius and that "ita in Ecclesia sua Pastores et Doctores usque ad consummationem saeculi esse voluit" (it was his will that there be shepherds and teachers in his Church until the consummation of the world) in Pastor aeternus.

This obviously refers to Mt 28,20. There is no other promise of Our Lord this could refer to. I don't understand why you disagree.

It uses the same phrase to show that the Church will be with us as long as Christ is with us, i.e until the end of the world. It does not mean that Christ's promise to be with us is just Him promising the Church will be with us.

Yes, but to be more specific: All days until the consummation of the world. Why do you crop the clear words of Our Lord and of the Vatican Council to "always", which is a disfiguration? Why would anyone want to accept your words and reject the words of Our Lord and his Church?

Because the consummation refers to the end of the world, and not a period of time, as proven by the fact that Christ said He would be with us until the consummation. If the hierarchy were to disappear in the last days, then so must Christ, as the exact same phrase is used in both promises.

It means that in Mt 28,20 Christ did promise his presence until the consummation, and that he did not promise his presence during the consummation. And yes, insofar as shepherds and teachers are not promised for the time span of the consummation, one would or could expect to be without such during that period.

Except Christ said "I" and not "my Church" in His promise.

Yes indeed. But, not promising his presence by means of his shepherds during the consummation, does not mean that the sheep are abandoned. There is e.g. the Paraclet. On the other hand, as prophecised by Daniel and by Our Lord himself, a great tribulation will make things very difficult, even for the elect.


https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-ix/la/documents/constitutio-dogmatica-dei-filius-24-aprilis-1870.html
https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-ix/la/documents/constitutio-dogmatica-pastor-aeternus-18-iulii-1870.html

"by means of his shepherds" is just something you've made up on the spot. Christ does not mention the Church or His shepherds in his promise in MT 28:20.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 24, 2019, 08:09:09 AM
Quote from: forlorn
Quote from: Struthio
Yes, but to be more specific: All days until the consummation of the world. Why do you crop the clear words of Our Lord and of the Vatican Council to "always", which is a disfiguration? Why would anyone want to accept your words and reject the words of Our Lord and his Church?

Because the consummation refers to the end of the world, and not a period of time, as proven by the fact that Christ said He would be with us until the consummation.

You presuppose what you call proven.



Quote from: forlorn
It uses the same phrase to show that the Church will be with us as long as Christ is with us, i.e until the end of the world.

More precise: the Church shepherds and teachers



Quote from: forlorn
"by means of his shepherds" is just something you've made up on the spot. Christ does not mention the Church or His shepherds in his promise in MT 28:20.

You contradict yourself. Above you say that (not Struthio but) the Vatican Council says it: It uses the same phrase to show that the Church will be with us as long as Christ is with us. Here you accuse me, to have made it up on the spot.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 24, 2019, 04:43:22 PM
You presuppose what you call proven.

I don't presuppose it, I prove it by showing that Christ used the EXACT SAME PHRASE to show how it can't mean what you think it means.

You contradict yourself. Above you say that (not Struthio but) the Vatican Council says it: It uses the same phrase to show that the Church will be with us as long as Christ is with us. Here you accuse me, to have made it up on the spot.

Yes, the Vatican Council says the shepherds will be there, but you quoted me in response to you claiming that Mt 28:20 was about the shepherds being there - and it's not. Context matters.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 25, 2019, 06:01:37 AM
forlorn,


Our Lord and the Vatican council both say usque ad consummationem saeculi. They don't say "always". Rather, you twist the words of Our Lord, distorting their genuine sense.

Our Lord did not say I'll be with you always. Our Lord said that he'll be with you all days until ...

You seem to be deluding yourself.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 25, 2019, 07:47:22 AM
forlorn,


Our Lord and the Vatican council both say usque ad consummationem saeculi. They don't say "always". Rather, you twist the words of Our Lord, distorting their genuine sense.

Our Lord did not say I'll be with you always. Our Lord said that he'll be with you all days until ...

You seem to be deluding yourself.
So you believe Our Lord will abandon the faithful during the consummation? That is the only logical and consistent conclusion to be drawn from your interpretation of usque ad consummationem saeculi.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 25, 2019, 09:56:34 AM
So you believe Our Lord will abandon the faithful during the consummation? That is the only logical and consistent conclusion to be drawn from your interpretation of usque ad consummationem saeculi.


Yes, abandon in the sense of the Vatican Council, in that there may be no shepherds and teachers.


Look, here St. Augustine explains what The last judgment includes:


Quote from: St. Augustine, The City of God (Book XX)
That the last judgment, then, shall be administered by Jesus Christ in the manner predicted in the sacred writings is denied or doubted by no one, unless by those who, through some incredible animosity or blindness, decline to believe these writings, though already their truth is demonstrated to all the world. And at or in connection with that judgment the following events shall come to pass, as we have learned: Elias the Tishbite shall come; the Jҽωs shall believe; Antichrist shall persecute; Christ shall judge; the dead shall rise; the good and the wicked shall be separated; the world shall be burned and renewed. All these things, we believe, shall come to pass; but how, or in what order, human understanding cannot perfectly teach us, but only the experience of the events themselves. My opinion, however, is, that they will happen in the order in which I have related them.

The City of God (Book XX) (http://newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm)


He includes a series of events to happen on earth before the world is burnt and renewed.


Thus, his words about the apostolic succession, which have been quoted before in this thread,

Quote
It must needs happen that these two kinds of pastors, some dying, others succeeding them, should continue in the Catholic Church even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord.

must be understood in that sense.

Consequently, he is in full agreement with the Vatican Council.


St. Augustine says that the last judgment, administered by Jesus Christ, is a time span which may be said to include the time of the Antichrist.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 25, 2019, 10:06:50 AM
Yes, abandon in the sense of the Vatican Council, in that there may be no shepherds and teachers.
Once again, you put words in Our Lord's mouth. Nowhere does He mention, refer to or imply "shepherds and teachers" or the hierarchy of the Church in the verse. You're just making that up to try and force the quote to fit your theory. I pointed this out already but you dodged it. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 25, 2019, 10:49:51 AM

Yes, abandon in the sense of the Vatican Council, in that there may be no shepherds and teachers.

Once again, you put words in Our Lord's mouth. Nowhere does He mention, refer to or imply "shepherds and teachers" or the hierarchy of the Church in the verse. You're just making that up to try and force the quote to fit your theory. I pointed this out already but you dodged it.

You're intellectually dishonest.

I said "in the sense of the Vatican Council". I didn't say that Our Lord used the words shepherds and teachers. I said that the Vatican Council understands the promise of Our Lord in Mt 28,20 with respect to shepherds and teachers.

You won't be able to divert honest readers from the fact, that it's you who twists the words of Our Lord behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world to mean always.



Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 25, 2019, 10:57:58 AM
Once again, you put words in Our Lord's mouth. Nowhere does He mention, refer to or imply "shepherds and teachers" or the hierarchy of the Church in the verse. You're just making that up to try and force the quote to fit your theory. I pointed this out already but you dodged it.


You're intellectually dishonest.

I said "in the sense of the Vatican Council". I didn't say that Our Lord used the words shepherds and teachers. I said that the Vatican Council understands the promise of Our Lord in Mt 28,20 with respect to shepherds and teachers.

You won't be able to divert honest readers from the fact, that it's you who twists the words of Our Lord behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world to mean always.
The Vatican Council uses the same phrase with regards to the consummation as Mt 28:20 does, yes, but that doesn't mean that Mt 28:20 is referring to "shepherds and teachers". Our Lord clearly says HE is with us all days, even usque ad consummationem saeculi. He does not mention the hierarchy at all, and "shepherds and teachers" =/= Christ. Pretending Mt 28:20 is about something which isn't referred to, stated, or implied at all is just ridiculous.

Furthermore, while Christ says he's with us to(i.e until) the consummation, He also says he is with us all days. If the consummation was a period of time before the world ended, then it would be impossible for both statements to be true. If the set of all days includes the consummation, and Christ(or the hierarchy) is only with us until the consummation, then it would be logically impossible for Christ to be with us all days. Yet he says He is. Therefore the consummation cannot be referring to a period of time before the end of the world, but rather the moment in which the world ends. Even if we pretend that the verse is about "shepherds and teachers", despite the fact that there's nothing to point to that, it is still impossible for them to be with us "all days" and yet not be with us during the consummation if the consummation is a period of time, for if they are not with us during the days of the consummation then they are clearly not with us "all days".

No matter how much you blatantly try to twist Scripture to fit your private interpretation, one thing you'll never be able to avoid is simple logic. Your interpretation of the consummation as a period of time makes Christ's promise self-contradictory, proving that you are interpreting it wrong. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 25, 2019, 04:15:29 PM
"All days until summer" means "all days until summer" and does not mean "all days including those in the summer".

You're wasting your and my time.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 25, 2019, 04:46:01 PM
"All days until summer" means "all days until summer" and does not mean "all days including those in the summer".

You're wasting your and my time.
The verse does not say "all days until the consummation", it says "all days, EVEN to the consummation". "All days" is not qualified at all. Once again you go twisting Sacred Scripture to try and fit your theory. I can't believe you have the gall to call me intellectually dishonest when you twist Our Lord's words twice. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 25, 2019, 05:34:13 PM

"All days until summer" means "all days until summer" and does not mean "all days including those in the summer".

You're wasting your and my time.

The verse does not say "all days until the consummation", it says "all days, EVEN to the consummation". "All days" is not qualified at all.

In my eyes this is a concise representation of our dispute. As far as I am concerned, we're done and can leave conclusions to the reader.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 25, 2019, 06:06:57 PM
The verse does not say "all days until the consummation", it says "all days, EVEN to the consummation". "All days" is not qualified at all.

In my eyes this is a concise representation of our dispute. As far as I am concerned, we're done and can leave conclusions to the reader.
If I were to say "All numbers, even up to 20!" that would be a self-contradictory and logically nonsensical sentence. When you add a comma like that, what comes after is just explaining what comes before, not a qualification of it. All days means all days. 

And regardless, even if you dismiss that point entirely, you have still failed to address the fact that you have absolutely zero basis for your assumption that Christ was referring to "shepherds and teachers" when he said "I am with you all days". He did not say His Church or anything of the sort, He referred only to Himself. And yet you insist that he's referring to the hierarchy because it suits you.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 25, 2019, 08:02:49 PM
Quote from: St Augustine, The City of God (Book XX)
That the last judgment, then, shall be administered by Jesus Christ in the manner predicted in the sacred writings is denied or doubted by no one, unless by those who, through some incredible animosity or blindness, decline to believe these writings, though already their truth is demonstrated to all the world. And at or in connection with that judgment the following events shall come to pass, as we have learned: Elias the Tishbite shall come; the Jҽωs shall believe; Antichrist shall persecute; Christ shall judge; the dead shall rise; the good and the wicked shall be separated; the world shall be burned and renewed. All these things, we believe, shall come to pass; but how, or in what order, human understanding cannot perfectly teach us, but only the experience of the events themselves. My opinion, however, is, that they will happen in the order in which I have related them.

The City of God (Book XX) (http://newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm)


Following St Augustine, the last judgment shall be administered by Jesus Christ, and may include various events which will consume some amount of time. These events include the operations of Antichrist, which will happen during a time span before the second coming of Our Lord. These events may either be seen as part of the judgment or as happening in connection with the judgment.

Given that Augustine says in Letter 208 (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102208.htm) that there will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord, his view of the last days allows for the possibility that there won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days, when Antichrist tries to estinguish the Church.

The Vatican Council, saying that Christ promised that there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi" gives no precise definition of the term consummatio saeculi going beyond the words of Our Lord in Mt 28,20.

In Mt 24,14/15 Our Lord seems to suggest that the consummatio saeculi begins with the abominatio desolationis. St Chrysostom in the Opus imperfectum confirms this explicitly, leaving no doubt. In support, I have posted two unequivocal quotes of his.


Conclusion: My opinion about the last days, which I have presented in the opening post and later on in this thread, is in accord with the view of Augustine. As shown before, it is not an arbitrary opinion contrived by myself, but rather it is proposed by Chrysostom in the Opus imperfectum. The only part I am responsible for is the identification of the Antichrist. Following Chrysostom, the Antichrist is not a single person but hosts of heretics. I identify the 1960's Robber Council and the Conciliar Sect as these hosts of heretics. But the whole topic is independent on the question whether we live in the times of Antichrist or we don't. The main point is: The Vatican Council does not teach that there will be shepherds and teachers until the second coming of Christ, but rather "usque ad consummationem saeculi", which may start some time before the second coming.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 25, 2019, 08:24:10 PM
The City of God (Book XX) (http://newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm)


Following St Augustine, the last judgment shall be administered by Jesus Christ, and may include various events which will consume some amount of time. These events include the operations of Antichrist, which will happen during a time span before the second coming of Our Lord. These events may either be seen as part of the judgment or as happening in connection with the judgment.

Given that Augustine says in Letter 208 (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102208.htm) that there will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord, his view of the last days allows for the possibility that there won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days, when Antichrist tries to estinguish the Church.
The amount of cognitive dissonance it takes to construct this sentence is staggering. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 25, 2019, 08:41:12 PM
The amount of cognitive dissonance it takes to construct this sentence is staggering.

I'd buy you a pint.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 25, 2019, 08:46:35 PM
The amount of cognitive dissonance it takes to construct this sentence is staggering.

I didn't mean to arouse your astonishment. How about a comment explaining what your thoughts are with respect to the topic?
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 25, 2019, 08:51:59 PM
I'd buy you a pint.  :cheers:
Major: "There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
Minor: "There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
Conclusion: What are you smoking? 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 25, 2019, 08:59:15 PM
Major: "There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
Minor: "There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
Conclusion: What are you smoking?

I hereby ask you to get sober and read the whole thread (again) before continuing to waste yours and mine and the reader's time.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 25, 2019, 09:03:26 PM
I hereby ask you to get sober and read the whole thread (again) before continuing to waste yours and mine and the reader's time.
Cute joke, it won't resolve your contradiction though.
"There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
"There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
Are the last days no longer part of time? Perhaps that's it? Time ends and then we have the last days, somehow? Well it's an interesting theory, Struthio, but I'm afraid at present we're still within the confines of time, so it doesn't back your idea that there are no longer apostolic shepherds at present.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 25, 2019, 09:16:38 PM
Cute joke, it won't resolve your contradiction though.
"There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
"There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
Are the last days no longer part of time? Perhaps that's it? Time ends and then we have the last days, somehow? Well it's an interesting theory, Struthio, but I'm afraid at present we're still within the confines of time, so it doesn't back your idea that there are no longer apostolic shepherds at present.

C'mon boy. Go to sleep! No need to get afraid.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 25, 2019, 09:55:17 PM
C'mon boy. Go to sleep! No need to get afraid.
"There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time."

"There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days."

Still waiting on how you reconcile these two. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 25, 2019, 09:58:20 PM
Major: "There will be apostolic shepherds even to the end of time"
Minor: "There won't be apostolic shepherds in the last days"
Conclusion: What are you smoking?


Go to sleep!
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 25, 2019, 10:11:15 PM

Go to sleep!

Still no answer. Either there will be apostolic shepherds until the end of time or there won't, it's really not that hard to answer  
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Stubborn on August 26, 2019, 06:06:09 AM
Still no answer. Either there will be apostolic shepherds until the end of time or there won't, it's really not that hard to answer  
This thread still going I see ha ha!

Forlorn, as you know, you are the one who is correct in all of this. Struthio interprets, whereas you read what is written as it is written. I dropped out of the debate because it was plain to me that Struthio, for whatever reason, is vehemently insistent on giving a new meaning to the word "consummation" so that for him, it means that which it has never meant before. This seems to satisfy him, not sure what it would do to him if he believed as we do in this matter, but you've said what can be said about it I think. Just my .02.     
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 03, 2020, 12:49:53 PM
Elsewhere on Cathinfo, DecemRationis kindly has referenced the encyclical Etsi multa where Pope Pius IX compares the "Old Catholics" to the Donatists, and quotes a short passage of St Augustine's Enarrationes in Psalmos.

Both the Donatists and the "Old Catholics" said or implied that the Church essentially had fallen in apostasy and perished, leaving themselves as a comparatively small remnant.

In his Exposition on Psalm 101(102) St. Augustine refutes the Donatists based on the following quotes:

Ps 101,24 Declare unto me the fewness of my days

Ps 101,25 Call me not away in the midst of my days

Mt 28,30: behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the age.

Mt 24,14: And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come.

St. Augustine basically says that the Lord's own answer to Declare unto me the fewness of my days is behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the age. Since furthermore the consummation does not come before the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to all nations, and there still are nations among whom the Gospel has not been preached, the Church cannot have fallen into apostasy and have perished (yet).

Hence, Augustine implicity allows for a possible great apostasy when the consummation of the age comes. This squares with

a) Augustine's assertion that the day of judgment may not be literally a day but a span of time including the reign of Antichrist (see Reply #93 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg664657/#msg664657))

b) Augustine's comment on 2 Thess 2,3, where he identifies the great apostasy and Antichrist. (more on this later)



Quote from: St Augustine
Mota vocibus vestris et falsis opinionibus vestris, quaerit a Deo ut exiguitatem dierum suorum annuntiet sibi, et invenit Dominum dixisse: Ecce ego vobiscum sum usque in consummationem saeculi. [Mt 18,20] Hic vos dicitis: De nobis dixit; nos sumus, nos erimus usque in consummationem saeculi. Interrogetur ipse Christus, cui dictum est: Exiguitatem dierum meorum annuntia mihi. Et praedicabitur, inquit, hoc Evangelium in universo orbe, in testimonium omnibus gentibus; et tunc veniet finis [Mt 24,14]. Quid est quod dicebas: Hoc certe fuit et periit? Dominum audi annuntiantem exiguitatem dierum meorum. Praedicabitur, inquit, hoc Evangelium. Ubi? In toto orbe terrarum. Quibus? In testimonium omnibus gentibus. Quid postea? Et tunc veniet finis. Non vides adhuc esse gentes in quibus nondum est praedicatum Evangelium? Cum ergo necesse sit impleri quod Dominus dixit, exiguitatem dierum meorum annuntians Ecclesiae, ut praedicetur hoc Evangelium in omnibus gentibus, et tunc veniat finis; quid est quod dicis iam perisse Ecclesiam de omnibus gentibus, quando ad hoc praedicatur Evangelium, ut possit esse in omnibus gentibus? Ergo usque in finem saeculi Ecclesia in omnibus gentibus;
[...]
Non ergo blandiantur sibi contra me haeretici, quia dixi: Exiguitatem dierum meorum, quasi non permansuram usque in finem saeculi. Quid enim addidit? Ne revoces me in dimidium dierum meorum. Noli, quomodo haeretici loquuntur, sic mecum agere. Usque in finem saeculi me perduc, non in dimidium dierum meorum;

Quote from: translation
Moved by your [the Donatists] voices and your false opinions, she [the Church] asks God to let her know the fewness of her days and discovers that the Lord has said: Behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the age [Mt 28,20]. Here you say: He has said it of us; we exist, we will exist until the consummation of the age. Let's interrogate Christ himself, whom she asked: Let me know the fewness of my days. And this gospel of the kingdom, says he, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. [Mt 24,14]. What did you say: The Church surely once was and has perished? Listen to the Lord who makes me know the fewness of my days. This Gospel, says he, will be preached. Where? In the whole world. Why? For a testimony to all nations. And then? Then shall the consummation come.
Do you see not that there are still nations among whom the Gospel has not been preached? Since then it is needful that what the Lord spoke shall be fulfilled, declaring unto the Church the fewness of my days, that this Gospel be preached in all nations, and then that the consummation may come, why is it that you say that the Church has already perished from among all nations, when the Gospel is being preached for this purpose, that it may be in all nations? Therefore the Church remains unto the consummation of the world, in all nations;
[...]
Let not therefore heretics flatter themselves against me, because I said, the fewness of my days, as if they would not last down to the end of the world. For what has he added? O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days Psalm 101:24. Deal Thou not with me according as heretics speak. Lead me on unto the end of the world, not only to the middle of my days;



The quoted Latin text can be found on augustinus.it (https://www.augustinus.it/latino/esposizioni_salmi/index2.htm) (on the left side of the page choose Elencus 101 II and press Lege)

The only English translation I could find is available on newadvent.org Exposition on Psalm 102 (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801102.htm) or identical also on documentacatholicaomnia.eu Enarrationes in Psalmos (http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/04z/z_0354-0430__Augustinus__Enarrationes_in_Psalmos__EN.doc.html). Since this translation is not complete, part of the translation above is mine, based on the Latin and an Italian translation found on augustinus.it.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 03, 2020, 01:31:12 PM
Hence, Augustine implicity allows for a possible great apostasy when the consummation of the age comes.

In De Civitate Dei, Liber XX, Caput XIX, St. Augustine comments on 2 Thess 2., the manifestation of Antichrist and the return of Our Lord.

Quote from: 2 Thess 2, Vulgate, Jerome/drbo.org
[3] Ne quis vos seducat ullo modo : quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum, et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

First, before the return of our Lord, comes an apostasy (or revolt, Greek: ápostasía, Latin: discessio), and the man of sin, the son of perdition is revealed.

Augustine uses a slightly different Latin text:

Quote from: De Civitate Dei, book 20, chapter 19
[3] ne quis vos seducat ullo modo; quoniam nisi venerit refuga primum et revelatus fuerit homo peccati, filius interitus

[3] let no man deceive you by any means; for unless there come the runaway first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of doom

Based upon this rendering of the original Greek, the apostasy is personified. Augustine identifies it with the son of perdition or Antichrist:

Quote from: De Civitate Dei, book 20, chapter 19
No one can doubt that he wrote this of Antichrist and of the day of judgment, which he here calls the day of the Lord, nor that he declared that this day should not come unless he first came who is called the apostate

Antichrist is called the apostate. Futhermore Antichrist may not signify the head of the hosts of heretics (Chrys., Op. Imp.) alone,

Quote from: De Civitate Dei, book 20, chapter 19
And on this account some think that in this passage Antichrist means not the prince himself alone, but his whole body, that is, the mass of men who adhere to him, along with him their prince;

but the whole hosts of heretics. Moreover, these whole hosts of heretics may not "sit in the temple of God" but "as the temple of God".

Quote from: De Civitate Dei, book 20, chapter 19
and they also think that we should render the Greek more exactly were we to read, not "in the temple of God," but "for" or "as the temple of God," as if he himself were the temple of God, the Church.

It is my opinion, that Augustine here predicts the impostor Conciliar Sect sitting as if she were the temple of God, as if she were the Church.


Whether that's true or not, given that in his Enarrationes in Psalmos Augustine allows for a major apostasy not before the consummation of the age comes, and given that here he predicts that major apostasy, one can't help concluding that the consummation of the age begins with the revelation of Antichrist.

Meanwhile the Vatican Council teaches: There will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi".


De Civitate Dei, Liber XX, Caput XIX (https://bkv.unifr.ch/works/9/versions/21/divisions/94870)
The City of God (Book XX) (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 05, 2020, 01:57:32 PM
Three evangelists report about the disciples' question asked on the Mount of Olives: When should the consummation happen?

St. Augustine says that these passages are exact parallels and must not be read in antagonism with each other:

Quote from: St Augustine, The Harmony of the Gospels, Book II
Chapter 77. Of the Harmony Subsisting Between the Three Evangelists in Their Narratives of the Discourse Which He Delivered on the Mount of Olives, When the Disciples Asked When the Consummation Should Happen.

147. [...] We have now, therefore, to examine this lengthened discourse as it meets us in the three evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. For they all introduce it in their narratives, and that, too, in the same order. Here, as elsewhere, each of these writers gives some matters which are peculiar to himself, in which, nevertheless, we have not to apprehend any suspicion of inconsistency. But what we have to make sure of is the proof that, in those passages which are exact parallels, they are nowhere to be regarded as in antagonism with each other. For if anything bearing the appearance of a contradiction meets us here, the simple affirmation that it is something wholly distinct, and uttered by the Lord in similar terms indeed, but on a totally different occasion, cannot be deemed a legitimate mode of explanation in a case like this, where the narrative, as given by all the three evangelists, moves in the same connection at once of subjects and of dates.

With respect to the question concerning the final consummation one finds

Mt: Quod signum consummationis saeculi?
Mc: Quod signum erit, quando haec omnia incipient consummari?
Lk: Quod signum cum fieri incipient?

Mt: What shall be the sign of the consummation of the age?
Mc: What shall be the sign when all this begins to be consummated/fulfilled?
Lk: What shall be the sign when all this begins to come to pass?

Luke 13:3 relates that Our Lord was asked by Peter, James, John, and Andrew. Following the instructions given by Augustine, we can assert that the consummation of the age corresponds to the fulfillment of all this, i.e. a series of announced events coming to pass. The question ask for the sign signalling the beginning of the events constituting the consummation.

When do the announced events begin to come to pass?

Quote from: St Augustine, The Harmony of the Gospels, Book II, Chapter 77
148. Again, what Matthew states in this form, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the consummation come," is given also in the same connection by Mark in the following manner: "And the gospel must first be published among all nations." Mark has not added the words, "and then shall the consummation come;" but he indicates what they express, when he uses the phrase "first" in the sentence, "And the gospel must first be published among all nations." For they had asked Him about the end. And therefore, when He addresses them thus, "The gospel must first be published among all nations," the term "first" clearly suggests the idea of something to be done before the consummation should come.

The announced events coming to pass during the consummation are those events mentioned by our Lord after he says et tunc veniet consummatio (Mt 24:14, and then shall the consummation come). The consummation begins, when we see the abomination of desolation in the holy place (Mt 24:15), after the gospel has been preached among all nations (Mt 24:14).

Luke summarizes what this consummation is about: For these are the days of vengeance, that all things may be fulfilled, that are written. (Lk 21:22)


Conclusion: The consummation of the age is not a point in time or a literal day, but rather a span of time, the time of great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be (Mt 24:21) as announced in (Dan 12:1), a span of time during which false prophet's try to deceive (if possible) even the elect (Mt 24:24).


References:

The Harmony of the Gospels, Book II, Chapter 77 (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1602277.htm)
De Consensu Evangelistarum, Libri Quatour, Liber Secundus (https://www.augustinus.it/latino/consenso_evangelisti/consenso_evangelisti_2.htm)
drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 07, 2020, 01:05:19 PM
Quote from: Hippolytus, On the End of the World
For I shall unfold to you today a narration full of horror and fear, to wit, the account of the consummation, and in particular, of the seduction of the whole world by the enemy and devil; and after these things, the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
newadvent.org/fathers (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0504.htm)

One more Church Father presenting the consummation of the age as a time span including the seduction by Antichrist into the same.


Hippolytus synonymously uses the day of the consummation, the times of the consummation, the time of the consummation, the last day of the consummation:

Quote from: Hippolytus, On the End of the World
Wherefore also in the last day of the consummation, it must needs be that false Christs will arise again


Hippolytus begins his account of the consummation with two prophets, after Isaiah he quotes Osea:

Quote from: Hippolytus, On the End of the World
Wherefore let us direct our discourse to a second witness. And of what sort is this one? Listen to Osea, as he speaks thus grandly: "In those days the Lord shall bring on a burning wind from the desert against them, and shall make their veins dry, and shall make their springs desolate; and all their goodly vessels shall be spoiled. Because they rose up against God, they shall fall by the sword, and their women with child shall be ripped up." Hosea 13:15 And what else is this burning wind from the east, than the Antichrist that is to destroy and dry up the veins of the waters and the fruits of the trees in his times, because men set their hearts on his works? For which reason he shall indeed destroy them, and they shall serve him in his pollution.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on June 08, 2020, 06:38:15 AM

Three evangelists report about the disciples' question asked on the Mount of Olives: When should the consummation happen?

St. Augustine says that these passages are exact parallels and must not be read in antagonism with each other:

With respect to the question concerning the final consummation one finds

Mt: Quod signum consummationis saeculi?
Mc: Quod signum erit, quando haec omnia incipient consummari?
Lk: Quod signum cum fieri incipient?

Mt: What shall be the sign of the consummation of the age?
Mc: What shall be the sign when all this begins to be consummated/fulfilled?
Lk: What shall be the sign when all this begins to come to pass?

Luke 13:3 relates that Our Lord was asked by Peter, James, John, and Andrew. Following the instructions given by Augustine, we can assert that the consummation of the age corresponds to the fulfillment of all this, i.e. a series of announced events coming to pass. The question ask for the sign signalling the beginning of the events constituting the consummation.

When do the announced events begin to come to pass?

The announced events coming to pass during the consummation are those events mentioned by our Lord after he says et tunc veniet consummatio (Mt 24:14, and then shall the consummation come). The consummation begins, when we see the abomination of desolation in the holy place (Mt 24:15), after the gospel has been preached among all nations (Mt 24:14).

Luke summarizes what this consummation is about: For these are the days of vengeance, that all things may be fulfilled, that are written. (Lk 21:22)


Conclusion: The consummation of the age is not a point in time or a literal day, but rather a span of time, the time of great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be (Mt 24:21) as announced in (Dan 12:1), a span of time during which false prophet's try to deceive (if possible) even the elect (Mt 24:24).


References:

The Harmony of the Gospels, Book II, Chapter 77 (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1602277.htm)
De Consensu Evangelistarum, Libri Quatour, Liber Secundus (https://www.augustinus.it/latino/consenso_evangelisti/consenso_evangelisti_2.htm)
drbo.org (http://www.drbo.org)

Struthio,

First, thank you for reviving this thread. I hope you continue to supplement it with your thoughts and readings on the issue of the "consummation."

I do not read Latin very well. I am learning the language (on my own without any formal study) by reading through and looking at passages in the Vulgate and consulting the wonderful tools the Lord has given us through the internet for study - a coincidence in the time of the "consummation"? I think not (obviously not). Since I am learning the language, I look forward to your relevant thoughts on the Latin and the Vulgate and Church fathers, particularly things that I mention below that I have noted.

In Matthew 24 we have the following:
(http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=47&ch=24&l=22-#x)
Quote
[22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=47&ch=24&l=22-#x) And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.
Et nisi breviati fuissent dies illi, non fieret salva omnis caro : sed propter electos breviabuntur dies illi.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm)

Those days shall be "shortened" for the sake of the elect. As you know, the word for "shortened" here is "breviati," and the later form in the verse, "breviabuntur." The root of the words for "shortened" - again, I do not know Latin so correct me if my research is wrong here - is the participle, breviatus, which comes from brevio.  


That word occurs in Isaiah 10 in a passage also talking about the "consummation":


Quote


22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=10&l=22-#x) For if thy people, O Israel, shall be as the sand of the sea, a remnant of them shall be converted, the consumption abridged shall overflow with justice.
Si enim fuerit populus tuus, Israel, quasi arena maris, reliquiae convertentur ex eo; consummatio abbreviata inundabit justitiam.
[23] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=10&l=23-#x) For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, and an abridgment in the midst of all the land.
Consummationem enim et abbreviationem Dominus Deus exercituum faciet in medio omnis terrae.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27010.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27010.htm)

The words abbreviata and abbreviationem also etymologically relate to the Latin word brevio. If the "consummation" is "abridged," it is obviously a period of time, not an endpoint dot on a timeline. If it is a period that can be abridged, then one must discuss or take account of the period of time involved.

There is another, critical passage in Isaiah 28 (which should be read in full) where the words (or related words) "consummation" and "shortened" are linked:

Quote


14] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=14-#x) Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, who rule over my people that is in Jerusalem.
Propter hoc audite verbum Domini, viri illusores, qui dominamini super populum meum, qui est in Jerusalem.

[15] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=15-#x) For you have said: We have entered into a league with death, and we have made a covenant with hell. When the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come upon us: for we have placed our hope in lies, and by falsehood we are protected.
Dixistis enim : Percussimus foedus cum morte, et cum inferno fecimus pactum : flagellum inundans cum transierit, non veniet super nos quia posuimus mendacium spem nostram, et mendacio protecti sumus.

[16] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=16-#x) Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold I will lay a stone in the foundations of Sion, a tried stone, a corner stone, a precious stone, founded in the foundation. He that believeth, let him not hasten.
Idcirco haec dicit Dominus Deus : Ecce ego mittam in fundamentis Sion lapidem, lapidem probatum, angularem, pretiosum, in fundamento fundatum; qui crediderit, non festinet.

[17] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=17-#x) And I will set judgment in weight, and justice in measure: and hail shall overturn the hope of falsehood: and waters shall overflow its protection.
Et ponam in pondere judicium, et justitiam in mensura; et subvertet grando spem mendacii, et protectionem aquae inundabunt.

[18] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=18-#x) And your league with death shall be abolished, and your covenant with hell shall not stand: when the overflowing scourge shall pass, you shall be trodden down by it.
Et delebitur foedus vestrum cum morte, et pactum vestrum cum inferno non stabit : flagellum inundans cum transierit, eritis ei in conculcationem.

[19] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=19-#x) Whensoever it shall pass through, it shall take you away: because in the morning early it shall pass through, in the day and in the night, and vexation alone shall make you understand what you hear.
Quandocumque pertransierit, tollet vos, quoniam in mane diluculo pertransibit in die et in nocte; et tantummodo sola vexatio intellectum dabit auditui.

[20] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=20-#x) For the bed is straitened, so that one must fall out, and a short covering cannot cover both.
Coangustatum est enim stratum, ita ut alter decidat; et pallium breve utrumque operire non potest.

[21] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=21-#x) For the Lord shall stand up as in the mountain of divisions: he shall be angry as in the valley which is in Gabaon: that he may do his work, his strange work: that he may perform his work, his work is strange to him.
Sicut enim in monte divisionum stabit Dominus; sicut in valle quae est in Gabaon irascetur, ut faciat opus suum, alienum opus ejus : ut operetur opus suum, peregrinum est opus ejus ab eo.

[22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=27&ch=28&l=22-#x) And now do not mock, lest your bonds be tied strait. For I have heard of the Lord the God of hosts a consumption and a cutting short upon all the earth.
Et nunc nolite illudere, ne forte constringantur vincula vestra; consummationem enim et abbreviationem audivi a Domino Deo exercituum, super universam terram.

http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27028.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/27028.htm)

As a side note: if verse 15 doesn't describe the Conciliar sect, I don't know what does. As I have said before, the model of the Old Covenant and its hierarchy - who killed Christ - is an example from the Lord for our instruction. Rom. 15:4, 1 Cor. 10:11.

Your thoughts?

DR








Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on June 08, 2020, 06:48:50 AM
newadvent.org/fathers (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0504.htm)

One more Church Father presenting the consummation of the age as a time span including the seduction by Antichrist into the same.


Hippolytus synonymously uses the day of the consummation, the times of the consummation, the time of the consummation, the last day of the consummation:


Hippolytus begins his account of the consummation with two prophets, after Isaiah he quotes Osea:
 
And thanks for the passage from Hippolytus - fascinating. I look forward to studying it
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 08, 2020, 02:36:10 PM
Great finds, DecemRationis! Isaiah 10:22,23 and Isaiah 28:22.

These quotes do not only show that the consummation is a span of time, but also that the consummation is the time of the great tribulation (Mt 24,21), the days of which will be shortened (Mt 24,22).

What we see today, that the temple of God, i.e. the Church, is usurped by antichrists and their minions and followers, was expected to be a possible scenario for the time of the consummation/tribulation by St. Thomas Aquinas, too:

Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas, Pauline Commentaries, 2 Thess
But in what temple?  [...]

But some say that neither Jerusalem nor the temple will ever be rebuilt, but that their desolation will last until the consummation and the end. And even some Jҽωs believe this. So this text is explained to mean in the temple of God, i.e., in the Church, since many from the church will accept him. Or according to Augustine, he sits in the temple of God, i.e., he rules and governs as though he himself with his messengers were the temple of God, as Christ is the temple with his adherents.

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~2Thess.C2.L1.n40.2


P.S.: aquinas.cc renders St. Thomas' quote of Dan 9,27 usque ad consummationem et finem as until the final consummation. I replaced that by the literal translation from drbo.org until the consummation and the end.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on June 08, 2020, 04:52:18 PM
Great finds, DecemRationis! Isaiah 10:22,23 and Isaiah 28:22.

These quotes do not only show that the consummation is a span of time, but also that the consummation is the time of the great tribulation (Mt 24,21), the days of which will be shortened (Mt 24,22).

What we see today, that the temple of God, i.e. the Church, is usurped by antichrists and their minions and followers, was expected to be a possible scenario for the time of the consummation/tribulation by St. Thomas Aquinas, too:

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~2Thess.C2.L1.n40.2


P.S.: aquinas.cc renders St. Thomas' quote of Dan 9,27 usque ad consummationem et finem as until the final consummation. I replaced that by the literal translation from drbo.org until the consummation and the end.
Good stuff. We live in significant times and are witnessing what many saints and visionaries saw aforetime. 

I'm sure it fills you with fear and trembling as it does me.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Arnaldo on June 09, 2020, 12:24:07 PM
St. Augustine basically says that the Lord's own answer to Declare unto me the fewness of my days is behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the age. Since furthermore the consummation does not come before the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to all nations, and there still are nations among whom the Gospel has not been preached, the Church cannot have fallen into apostasy and have perished (yet).

Hence, Augustine implicity allows for a possible great apostasy when the consummation of the age comes.

So Struthio, are you saying the gates of hell did prevail against the Church at Vatican II, and justifying it by saying Vatican II was "the consummation of the world"?  Just trying to understand your position.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 09, 2020, 03:21:59 PM
We live in significant times and are witnessing what many saints and visionaries saw aforetime.

I'm sure it fills you with fear and trembling as it does me.

Actually, no. I was filled with fear and trembling in expectance of my personal judgment, and I was downhearted in face of what had happened to the Church (and society), before I have come to these conclusions. And before I have started to look for biblical prophecy, Fathers, etc., explaining what Catholics have witnessed in the past half of a century. The wrath of the Lord is palpable, seeing how Faith and altars have been disposed of in a concerted action lead by Rome.

Since I found out that Homilies XLVIII and XLIX of the Opus Imperfectum of St John Chrysostom on Matth 24 neatly describe what is happening, I feel eased. What a priviledge to be allowed to be witness of the ultimate prophecy being fulfilled. It appears to feel like having been allowed to touch the wounds of Our Lord.

In the meantime, my fear and trembling with respect to my personal judgment is well and alive.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 09, 2020, 03:34:25 PM
So Struthio, are you saying the gates of hell did prevail against the Church at Vatican II, and justifying it by saying Vatican II was "the consummation of the world"?  Just trying to understand your position.

With respect to the gates of hell, see the second part of Reply #12 of this thread. The Council of Trent says what that means.

The point of this thread is that the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds and a Pope up to the consummation of the age, which by some is understood as the literal last day when Our Lord returns, but rather may be a longer time span, beginning with the time of the great tribulation during which Antichrist reigns.

As an aside: Some Fathers allow for the possibility that Antichrist may be a hosts of heretics usurping the Church.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on June 09, 2020, 04:06:22 PM
Actually, no. I was filled with fear and trembling in expectance of my personal judgment, and I was downhearted in face of what had happened to the Church (and society), before I have come to these conclusions. And before I have started to look for biblical prophecy, Fathers, etc., explaining what Catholics have witnessed in the past half of a century. The wrath of the Lord is palpable, seeing how Faith and altars have been disposed of in a concerted action lead by Rome.

Since I found out that Homilies XLVIII and XLIX of the Opus Imperfectum of St John Chrysostom on Matth 24 neatly describe what is happening, I feel eased. What a priviledge to be allowed to be witness of the ultimate prophecy being fulfilled. It appears to feel like having been allowed to touch the wounds of Our Lord.

In the meantime, my fear and trembling with respect to my personal judgment is well and alive.
Well, I mean looking out over the devastation, the people (perhaps) in your family that the Wind hasn't listed to blow over (John 3:8 - KJV), and the utter gratuitousness of God's ɛƖɛctıon and mercy. The rather trite and commonplace expression of it is, "there but for the grace of God go I."

This is what I meant, and it makes me shudder at some point during almost every Rosary, etc. It indeed makes me work out my salvation in fear and trembling. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Arnaldo on June 09, 2020, 07:11:18 PM
With respect to the gates of hell, see the second part of Reply #12 of this thread. The Council of Trent says what that means.

The point of this thread is that the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds and a Pope up to the consummation of the age, which by some is understood as the literal last day when Our Lord returns, but rather may be a longer time span, beginning with the time of the great tribulation during which Antichrist reigns.

As an aside: Some Fathers allow for the possibility that Antichrist may be a hosts of heretics usurping the Church.

If the Church no longer has shepherds and teachers it lacks an essential characteristic of the true Church, which means the Church has defected.

Catholic Encyclopedia: "Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 09, 2020, 07:47:50 PM
If the Church no longer has shepherds and teachers it lacks an essential characteristic of the true Church, which means the Church has defected.

Catholic Encyclopedia: "Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm)


Many theologians translate "usque ad consummationem saeculi" as meaning "to the end of time" and then conclude "the Church can never ...". Fact is, that the Vatican Council authoritatively teaches that the Church will have shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi" and not that the Church will have shepherds "forever" as your obviously misguided source claims.

The conclusion should be that the Church cannot lose the Apostolic hierarchy before the consummation of the age begins.


P.S.: I recommend that you read the whole thread to avoid presenting objections which have been refuted before.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on June 09, 2020, 08:48:49 PM
If the Church no longer has shepherds and teachers it lacks an essential characteristic of the true Church, which means the Church has defected.

Catholic Encyclopedia: "Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm)

Arnaldo,

The CE also says this (from the article on Predestination):


Quote
Since in reality only those reach heaven (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm) who die in the state of justification or sanctifying grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm), all these and only these are numbered among the predestined, strictly so called. From this it follows that we must reckon among them also all children who die in baptismal (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) grace, as well as those adults who, after a life stained with sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), are converted on their death-beds. The same is true (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm) of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm) Church of Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm), yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03430b.htm), Protestants (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm) in good faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06642a.htm), schismatics, Jҽωs (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08399a.htm), Mahommedans (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm), and pagans (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11388a.htm). Those fortunate Catholics (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) who at the close of a long life are still clothed in their baptismal (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) innocence, or who after many relapses into mortal sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) persevere till the end, are not indeed predestined more firmly, but are more signally favoured than the last-named categories of persons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm).

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

You can believe this tripe if you want to, but please don't take it as Catholic dogma that another Catholic is running afoul of if he doesn't toe this crooked line. 

Bottom line: there is an extensive discussion in this thread of the Fathers, Magisterial authority, etc., and look to that for guidance. It's fine to take the CE as a summary or starting point, but its sort of like Wikipedia. Even the Fathers can err, and  I'd take them over the theologians of the CE. 

Lots of the crap that floated up in the Church starting floating up in the couple of hundred years before V2 especially, like some of the stuff in the CE. I would say some of the teachings of the theologians on indefectibility and apostolicity in that timespan can be included in that.  

DR




Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on June 09, 2020, 09:01:54 PM
Arnaldo,

And are you one who of those who believe apostolic shepherds have to be "ordinaries" in some see?

Read the attached. Father Cekada kept asking John Lane to quote competent authority which supports the specific proposition that "there must exist one bishop with ordinary jurisdiction, in order for the Church to continue to exist without essential defect." Even using the fallible theologians and manuals, Lane couldn't support that proposition - in my view.

Anyway, there's also some good discussions here on this issue. I'll try to dig them up. But, again, the proposition regarding ordinaries and apostolicity needs to be proven. We often take things as a given . . . when they haven't exactly been "given."

DR
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on June 10, 2020, 08:23:33 AM
Arnaldo,

There's a good discussion of the issue you raised in the thread from which I lift the following from a post of mine in that thread. In my post, I quote from an old SSPX article cited in a post from Sean Johnson, which presents this strong argument IMHO:



Quote
History confirms that the state of necessity extended not only the duties of bishops, but also their power of jurisdiction. Dom Grea whose attachment to the pope is above all suspicion testifies (De l’Eglise et de sa divine consitution, vol. I) that not only at the beginning of Christianity did the "necessity of the Church and the Gospel" demand that the power of the episcopal order be exercised in all its fullness without jurisdictional limitations, but that in successive ages extraordinary circumstances required" even more exceptional and more extraordinary manifestations" of episcopal power (ibid., p.218) in order "to apply a remedy to the current necessity of the Christian people" (ibid. and ƒƒ.), for whom there was no hope of aid on the part of the legitimate pastors nor from the Pope. In such circumstances, in which the common good of the Church is also at stake, the jurisdictional limitations vanish and "that which is universal" in episcopal power "comes directly to the aid of souls" (ibid., p.218):


https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/61-year-sede-vacantism-has-already-become-proximately-heretical-(leads-to-evism)/msg680956/#msg680956 (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/61-year-sede-vacantism-has-already-become-proximately-heretical-(leads-to-evism)/msg680956/#msg680956)
(https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/61-year-sede-vacantism-has-already-become-proximately-heretical-(leads-to-evism)/msg680956/#msg680956)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Arnaldo on June 10, 2020, 08:44:00 AM
Arnaldo,

And are you one who of those who believe apostolic shepherds have to be "ordinaries" in some see?

Read the attached. Father Cekada kept asking John Lane to quote competent authority which supports the specific proposition that "there must exist one bishop with ordinary jurisdiction, in order for the Church to continue to exist without essential defect." Even using the fallible theologians and manuals, Lane couldn't support that proposition - in my view.

Anyway, there's also some good discussions here on this issue. I'll try to dig them up. But, again, the proposition regarding ordinaries and apostolicity needs to be proven. We often take things as a given . . . when they haven't exactly been "given."

DR

I am indeed one of those who knows that shepherds and teachers require ordinary jurisdiction.  I also know that delegated jurisdiction cannot exist without ordinary jurisdiction, since the former is a delegated participation in the latter. And why would I care what the heretic Fr. Cekada says?  He's not even a Catholic.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Arnaldo on June 10, 2020, 08:47:51 AM
Arnaldo,

There's a good discussion of the issue you raised in the thread from which I lift the following from a post of mine in that thread. In my post, I quote from an old SSPX article cited in a post from Sean Johnson, which presents this strong argument IMHO:
 (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/61-year-sede-vacantism-has-already-become-proximately-heretical-(leads-to-evism)/msg680956/#msg680956)
History confirms that the state of necessity extended not only the duties of bishops, but also their power of jurisdiction. Dom Grea whose attachment to the pope is above all suspicion testifies (De l’Eglise et de sa divine consitution, vol. I) that not only at the beginning of Christianity did the "necessity of the Church and the Gospel" demand that the power of the episcopal order be exercised in all its fullness without jurisdictional limitations, but that in successive ages extraordinary circumstances required" even more exceptional and more extraordinary manifestations" of episcopal power (ibid., p.218) in order "to apply a remedy to the current necessity of the Christian people" (ibid. and ƒƒ.), for whom there was no hope of aid on the part of the legitimate pastors nor from the Pope. In such circumstances, in which the common good of the Church is also at stake, the jurisdictional limitations vanish and "that which is universal" in episcopal power "comes directly to the aid of souls" (ibid., p.218):

What the quote means is the limitation of territorial boundaries did not apply in the extraordinary circumstances. A bishops appointed to a particular area could exercise his ordinary jurisdiction outside of that area.  It doesn't mean heretical and schismatic "bishops" or priests who were ordained against the laws of the Church receive jurisdiction.     
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on June 10, 2020, 09:16:13 AM
What the quote means is the limitation of territorial boundaries did not apply in the extraordinary circumstances. A bishops appointed to a particular area could exercise his ordinary jurisdiction outside of that area.  It doesn't mean heretical and schismatic "bishops" or priests who were ordained against the laws of the Church receive jurisdiction.    
I'm not aware of the apostles being "appointed to a particular area." If you think they were, can you support that?

If that is what it means - bishops appointed to a particular area exercising jurisdiction outside the area in extraordinary circumstances - the analogy to the apostles (who were not appointed to a "particular area") is simply wrong here. Why don't you say that then, rather than apparently taking the quote as truthful and "explaining" so as to render its analogy inapplicable?

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on June 10, 2020, 09:20:01 AM
I am indeed one of those who knows that shepherds and teachers require ordinary jurisdiction.  I also know that delegated jurisdiction cannot exist without ordinary jurisdiction, since the former is a delegated participation in the latter. And why would I care what the heretic Fr. Cekada says?  He's not even a Catholic.
Ok. So you know it all and are here to instruct us - rather than join in the search for the truth in these anomalous times that are rife with contradictions that make the status quo theology (if applied as you apparently apply it) pre-V2 appear ridiculous?

Got it.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Arnaldo on June 10, 2020, 11:01:24 AM
I'm not aware of the apostles being "appointed to a particular area." If you think they were, can you support that?

The apostles all had universal jurisdiction and they were all infallible. Their successors were appointed to particular areas, and only the successor of Peter in the See of Rome enjoys infallibility.  It may also be true that in the first few centuries ecclesiastic law had not yet developed to the point in which the successors of the Apostles were restricted within territorial boundaries, but instead could legitimately exercise their office anywhere there were faithful without a resident bishop.  That would not mean they possessed universal jurisdiction, since universal jurisdiction is of a different species than particular jurisdiction, but it would mean that they could legitimately exercise their particular jurisdiction outside of the their territorial boundaries.

Quote
If that is what it means - bishops appointed to a particular area exercising jurisdiction outside the area in extraordinary circumstances - the analogy to the apostles (who were not appointed to a "particular area") is simply wrong here. Why don't you say that then, rather than apparently taking the quote as truthful and "explaining" so as to render its analogy inapplicable?

I'm not sure what analogy you are referring to, but I guarantee that if you look up De l’Eglise et de sa divine consitution, vol. I , p. 218, it will be referring to bishops who had been legitimately sent by the Church, and not to bishops who were illicitly consecrated and who had not been canonically sent.  

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Arnaldo on June 10, 2020, 11:09:54 AM
Ok. So you know it all and are here to instruct us - rather than join in the search for the truth in these anomalous times that are rife with contradictions that make the status quo theology (if applied as you apparently apply it) pre-V2 appear ridiculous?

Got it.

This is Catholicism 101. If there's no ordinary jurisdiction there's no delegated jurisdiction.  A shepherd and teacher is a successor of the apostles, and a successor of the apostles is a bishop with ordinary jurisdiction; a bishop with ordinary jurisdiction is one who has been legitimately appointed to an episcopal see that was either established by the Apostles themselves, or by a Pope.  
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 10, 2020, 01:16:54 PM
John of Damascus says that Antichrist comes at the consummation of the age. Hence, the Vatican Council does not guarantee shepherds up to the Second Coming of Christ.

Quote from: John of Damascus, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (Book IV)
It should be known that the Antichrist is bound to come. Every one, therefore, who confesses not that the Son of God came in the flesh and is perfect God and became perfect man, after being God, is Antichrist. 1 John 2:22 But in a peculiar and special sense he who comes at the consummation of the age is called Antichrist.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/33044.htm
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Arnaldo on June 10, 2020, 02:43:20 PM
John of Damascus says that Antichrist comes at the consummation of the age. Hence, the Vatican Council does not guarantee shepherds up to the Second Coming of Christ.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/33044.htm

Struthio, just because John Damascus uses the phrase in a general sense to refer to the time of Antichrist, does not mean the Vatican Council used it in the same general sense.  

The Church can never be without shepherds and teachers.  The Church is essentially an unequal society comprised of those with the authority to teach, govern and sanctify, and those who submit to their authority.  If the Church no longer had shepherds and teachers who enjoy the three-fold authority, she would undergo an essential change, and therefore cease to be the Church founded by Christ.  IF that were to happen, the gates of hell would have prevailed against the Church.  Listen to Popes Pius X and Pius IX:

Pius X, Vehementer Nos. 8, Feb. 11, 1906: “The Scripture teaches us, and the tradition of the Fathers confirms the teaching, that the Church is the mystical body of Christ, ruled by the Pastors and Doctors (I Ephes. iv. II sqq.) - a society of men containing within its own fold chiefs who have full and perfect powers for ruling, teaching and judging (Matt. xxviii. 18-20; xvi. 18, 19; xviii. 17; Tit. ii. 15; 11. Cor. x. 6; xiii. 10. & c.) It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of persons, the Pastors and the flock, those who occupy a rank in the different degrees of the hierarchy and the multitude of the faithful. So distinct are these categories that with the pastoral body alone rests the necessary right and authority for promoting the end of the society and directing all its members towards that end. … the plan of the episcopate and the constitution of the Church have always been found to be so framed that the Church rests on the Bishops, and that all its acts are ruled by them.”

Pius IX, Mortalium Animos, January 6, 1928: “Christ founded His Church as a perfect society, of its nature external and perceptible to the senses, which in the future should carry on the work of the salvation of mankind under one head, with a living teaching authority …  The Church thus wondrously instituted could not cease to exist with the death of its Founder and of the Apostles, the pioneers of its propagation; for its mission was to lead all men to salvation, without distinction of time or place: “Going therefore, teach ye all nations.” (Matt. 28:19).  In the continual carrying out of this task, will any element of strength and efficiency be wanting to the Church, when Christ Himself is perpetually present with it, according to His promise: ‘Behold, I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.’ (Matt. 28:20). Hence not only must the Church still exist today and continue always to exist, but it must ever be exactly the same as it was in the days of the Apostles. Otherwise we must say—which God forbid—that Christ has failed in His purpose, or that He erred when He asserted of His Church that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it. (Matt. 16:18). … The one Church of Christ is visible to all, and will remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it.”

When the Vatican Council says the Church will possess shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the age, it means until the very end.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on June 10, 2020, 03:15:11 PM
The apostles all had universal jurisdiction and they were all infallible. Their successors were appointed to particular areas, and only the successor of Peter in the See of Rome enjoys infallibility.  It may also be true that in the first few centuries ecclesiastic law had not yet developed to the point in which the successors of the Apostles were restricted within territorial boundaries, but instead could legitimately exercise their office anywhere there were faithful without a resident bishop.  That would not mean they possessed universal jurisdiction, since universal jurisdiction is of a different species than particular jurisdiction, but it would mean that they could legitimately exercise their particular jurisdiction outside of the their territorial boundaries.

I'm not sure what analogy you are referring to, but I guarantee that if you look up De l’Eglise et de sa divine consitution, vol. I , p. 218, it will be referring to bishops who had been legitimately sent by the Church, and not to bishops who were illicitly consecrated and who had not been canonically sent.  

The apostles all had universal jurisdiction and they were all infallible. Their successors were appointed to particular areas, and only the successor of Peter in the See of Rome enjoys infallibility.  It may also be true that in the first few centuries ecclesiastic law had not yet developed to the point in which the successors of the Apostles were restricted within territorial boundaries, but instead could legitimately exercise their office anywhere there were faithful without a resident bishop.  That would not mean they possessed universal jurisdiction, since universal jurisdiction is of a different species than particular jurisdiction, but it would mean that they could legitimately exercise their particular jurisdiction outside of the their territorial boundaries.

I'm not sure what analogy you are referring to, but I guarantee that if you look up De l’Eglise et de sa divine consitution, vol. I , p. 218, it will be referring to bishops who had been legitimately sent by the Church, and not to bishops who were illicitly consecrated and who had not been canonically sent.  

Remember, the article is an attempt to justify Archbishop Lefebvre's consecration of bishops without papal mandate. It was analogizing that action to the situation at the beginning of the Church, saying, "not only at the beginning of Christianity did the 'necessity of the Church and the Gospel' demand that the power of the episcopal order be exercised in all its fullness without jurisdictional limitations," but also in the case of the Archbishop and his consecrations of bishops. This is the analogy.

Once again, your argument here is nothing more than ipse dixit, like your subsequent post about "this is Catholicism 101." As I said, you're assuming things as "given" when you haven't established - beyond your own words - that they are "given."

We all assert that the Church is the church with the apostolic succession, and we all here assert that that is the Catholic Church. This thread mainly concerns whether that succession means bishops until the end of time, the final judgment. I think Struthio makes a strong case of "no" which is consistent with the post-V2 world, the facts, and the law, the revelation of God through Scripture, the teachings of the Fathers, and the Magisterium - in the actual words at issue, without assumptions taken. You evidently demur from that and say "yes" to his "no," but that is not the point at issue here.

The point you and I are discussing is that you require, for the Church to remain as she must until the end of time (again according to your demurring to Struthio's issue in this thread), the following: you maintain this requires, a) in the first place, bishops, and b) particular kinds of bishops, bishops who are "ordinaries" with direct mandate from a pope to govern a particular jurisdiction.  For purpose of our discussion now I accept point a) - which would take us off onto a byway if disputed.

The precise issue is what does "apostolic" mean. Getting back to the analogy, the apostles had universal jurisdiction and were not limited to particular geographic sees. It would seem to me obvious that if there were bishops now who also had universal jurisdiction and were not limited geographically, the church with such would be "apostolic," since it would have bishops exercising jurisdiction like the apostles.

Anyway, the point of the Agnis discussion between the "heretic" Father Cekada and John Lane (also a "heretic"?) is precisely what does "apostolic" mean, with at least Mr. Lane making an effort to prove or support his "given," unlike you here.

It seems to me that the "theory" that it requires "ordinaries" directly appointed by the pope is limited in its support to certain inferences from 20th century theologians, at least as set forth by John Lane in the discussion I attached to a prior post. As the "heretic" Father Cekada points out, none of them directly say what John Lane needs them to say. You would think they would if the apostolicity on the Church depended on such, if it's a "dogma" of the faith central to its claim of indefectibility. Rather odd that you don't see that clearly expressed, not even in the theologians, much less anything in the Magisterium.

I think Struthio has demolished the argument that that's what V1 says by discussing what it says and the use of the terminology.

Now, you've added nothing to the argument of Mr. Lane, but simply rung the bell of your "Catholicism 101." Well, I didn't go to your school. Perhaps you can cite the "rule" for me from some authority if it's set down anywhere - and we can continue the discussion.

PS - You posted something while I was typing this. I don't see it relevant to our issue of whether apostolicity requires ordinaries with particular, limited jurisdiction appointed directly by a pope.  


Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 10, 2020, 03:56:09 PM
Struthio, just because John Damascus uses the phrase in a general sense to refer to the time of Antichrist, does not mean the Vatican Council used it in the same general sense.  

The Church can never be without shepherds and teachers.  The Church is essentially an unequal society comprised of those with the authority to teach, govern and sanctify, and those who submit to their authority.  If the Church no longer had shepherds and teachers who enjoy the three-fold authority, she would undergo an essential change, and therefore cease to be the Church founded by Christ.  IF that were to happen, the gates of hell would have prevailed against the Church.  Listen to Popes Pius X and Pius IX:

Pius X, Vehementer Nos. 8, Feb. 11, 1906: “The Scripture teaches us, and the tradition of the Fathers confirms the teaching, that the Church is the mystical body of Christ, ruled by the Pastors and Doctors (I Ephes. iv. II sqq.) - a society of men containing within its own fold chiefs who have full and perfect powers for ruling, teaching and judging (Matt. xxviii. 18-20; xvi. 18, 19; xviii. 17; Tit. ii. 15; 11. Cor. x. 6; xiii. 10. & c.) It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of persons, the Pastors and the flock, those who occupy a rank in the different degrees of the hierarchy and the multitude of the faithful. So distinct are these categories that with the pastoral body alone rests the necessary right and authority for promoting the end of the society and directing all its members towards that end. … the plan of the episcopate and the constitution of the Church have always been found to be so framed that the Church rests on the Bishops, and that all its acts are ruled by them.”

Please note, that Pius X refers to the final verses of Matthew, just like the Vatican Council: usque ad consummationem saeculi.


Pius IX, Mortalium Animos, January 6, 1928: “Christ founded His Church as a perfect society, of its nature external and perceptible to the senses, which in the future should carry on the work of the salvation of mankind under one head, with a living teaching authority …  The Church thus wondrously instituted could not cease to exist with the death of its Founder and of the Apostles, the pioneers of its propagation; for its mission was to lead all men to salvation, without distinction of time or place: “Going therefore, teach ye all nations.” (Matt. 28:19).  In the continual carrying out of this task, will any element of strength and efficiency be wanting to the Church, when Christ Himself is perpetually present with it, according to His promise: ‘Behold, I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.’ (Matt. 28:20). Hence not only must the Church still exist today and continue always to exist, but it must ever be exactly the same as it was in the days of the Apostles. Otherwise we must say—which God forbid—that Christ has failed in His purpose, or that He erred when He asserted of His Church that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it. (Matt. 16:18). … The one Church of Christ is visible to all, and will remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it.”

When the Vatican Council says the Church will possess shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the age, it means until the very end.

Well, you already have found that always cannot mean forever here, since the mission of the militant Church will have and end. Pius IX specifies the end by quoting the final words of Matthew even to the consummation of the world. If the Church wouldn't ininterruptedly carry out her mission usque ad consummationem saeculi, then the gates of hell would have prevailed against her.

Pius IX does not say the very end. These words jumped out of your upper storey. Pius IX said usque ad consummationem saeculi, quoting Mt 28:20 and the Vatican Council.


I know that it's hard to unlearn errors. But you have to do that. These two quotes of yours in no way define what you claim they do. Neither does Pius X nor Pius IX say: "usque ad consummation saeculi" means "to the literal last day".
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Arnaldo on June 10, 2020, 07:33:09 PM
Remember, the article is an attempt to justify Archbishop Lefebvre's consecration of bishops without papal mandate.

I just wrote a long reply to each of your points, and lost it all when I tried to post it.  
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 10, 2020, 09:16:36 PM
This thread mainly concerns whether that succession means bishops until the end of time, the final judgment. I think Struthio makes a strong case of "no" which is consistent with the post-V2 world, the facts, and the law, the revelation of God through Scripture, the teachings of the Fathers, and the Magisterium - in the actual words at issue, without assumptions taken.
[...]
I think Struthio has demolished the argument that that's what V1 says by discussing what it says and the use of the terminology.

Thank you, DecemRationis, very much, for letting me know that my efforts were not in vain.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on June 11, 2020, 06:32:37 AM
I just wrote a long reply to each of your points, and lost it all when I tried to post it.  
I'm very sorry. That has probably happened to most of us, and it stinks. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on June 11, 2020, 06:35:43 AM
Thank you, DecemRationis, very much, for letting me know that my efforts were not in vain.
And thank you for your efforts . . . and please keep studying, and sharing your thoughts here.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: poche on June 12, 2020, 12:05:47 AM
One thing to remember is what Our Lord said before he ascended up into heaven, "and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." (Matthew 28:20) This is a promise that he made to no other person or institution. When everything is at its darkest we should remember these words from the mouth of our savior.  
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 12, 2020, 01:31:43 PM
St. Jerome explains Matthew 24:15-20 as concerning both the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 and the time of the reign of Antichrist. He positively identifies the consummation of the world as a time span during which we must watch out that our Faith and Our love of the Lord don't grow cold and that we don't slowdown doing good deeds.



Quote from: Hieronymus in Matthaeum 24,15
Cum ergo videritis abominationem de solationis, quæ dicta est a Daniele propheta, stantem in loco sancto, qui legit, intelligat. [...] Potest autem simpliciter aut de Antichristo accipi [...]

Verse 15 about the abomination of desolation can be understood of Antichrist. The holy place is the Church stare in loco sancto, hoc est, in Ecclesia. Then we should flee to the mountains debemus fugere de Judæa ad montes etc.


Quote from: Hieronymus in Matthaeum 24,20
Orate autem, ut non fiat fuga vestra hieme, vel sabbato. Si de captivitate Jerusalem voluerimus accipere, quando a Tito et Vespasiano capta est, orare debent, ne fuga eorum hieme, vel sabbato fiat; quia in altero duritia frigoris prohibet ad solitudines pergere, et in montibus desertisque latitare : in altero, aut transgressio Legis est, si fugere voluerint, aut mors immineus, si remanse rint. Si autem de consummatione mundi intelligitur, hoc præcipit, ut non refrigescat fides nostra et in
Christum charitas, neque ut otiosi in opere Dei torpeamus virtutum sabbato.

On verse 20 But pray that your flight be not in the winter, or on the sabbath, Jerome says that this can be understood of the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70 as well as of the consummation of the world. At the consummation of the world we must beware, our Faith and our love of Christ mustn't grow cold and we mustn't abate with the works of God.

Sancti Eusebii Hieronymi, Opera Omnia (https://books.google.com.br/books?id=t6MOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=%22Abominatio+desolationis+intelligi+potest%22&source=bl&ots=R9RSthl2OF&sig=ACfU3U2yhIzsm0k-LuJSHlmvRS9By6pcjA&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwia04T73vzpAhXIEbkGHcAfA4wQ6AEwA3oECAoQAQ#v=snippet&q=%22Si%20autem%20de%20consummatione%20mundi%20intelligitur%22&f=false)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 12, 2020, 02:35:10 PM
Furthermore, St. Jerome says about Matth 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets ... " that this is to be understood in threefold manner, one of which is about the consummation of the world. During the consummation false prophets arise, consequently the consummatio saeculi the disciples ask about is a span of time before the Second Coming.

Quote from: Hieronymus in Matthaeum 24:24
Surgent enim pseudochristi, et pseudo prophetæ, et dabunt signa magna et prodigia; ita ut in errorem inducantur, si fieri potest, etiam electi. Ecce praedixi vobis. Tripliciter, ut ante jam dixi, locus hic disserendus est; aut de tempore obsidionis Romanae ; aut de consummatione mundi ; aut de hæreticorum contra Ecclesiam pugma, et istiusmodi antichristis, qui sub opinione false scientiæ contra Christum dimicant.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on June 26, 2020, 02:31:22 PM
In Reply #137 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg703580/#msg703580) I quoted St. Jerome, who

Quote from: Reply #137
[...] explains Matthew 24:15-20 as concerning both the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 and the time of the reign of Antichrist. He positively identifies the consummation of the world as a time span during which we must watch out that our Faith and Our love of the Lord don't grow cold and that we don't slowdown doing good deeds.

His comment with respect to

Quote from: Matth. 24, drbo.org
[19] And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days.

Vae autem praegnantibus et nutrientibus in illis diebus!

is

Quote from: Jerome
Si autem de consummatione mundi intelligitur, hoc præcipit, ut non refrigescat fides nostra et in Christum charitas, neque ut otiosi in opere Dei torpeamus virtutum sabbato.

But if understood of the consummation of the world, this warns us that our Faith and our love of Christ mustn't grow cold ... Consequently, the consummation of the world includes a time of tribulation before the second coming of Christ.


Venerable Bede, Rabanus Maurus, and St. Thomas Aquinas reiterate these exact words of Jerome:

Bede: In Evangelium S. Marci, LIBER QUARTUS., CAPUT XIII. (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Beda_cps2&rumpfid=Beda_cps2,%20In%20Evangelium%20S.%20Marci,%20%20%204,%20%2013&id=Beda_cps2,%20In%20Evangelium%20S.%20Marci,%20%20%204,%20%2013,%20%20%20%20%2061&level=99&level9798=&satz=61&hilite_id=Beda_cps2,%20In%20Evangelium%20S.%20Marci,%20%20%204,%20%2013,%20%20%20%20%2061&string=FIDES&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=61#61)

Rabanus Maurus: De rerum naturis, LIBER X, XI. De vicissitudinibus temporum IIII. (http://www.intratext.com/IXT/LAT0385/__P2M.HTM)

Thomas Aquinas: Catena Aurea, Marcus (http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/it/ehd.htm)


Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 05, 2020, 09:09:46 AM
Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas, Catena Aurea on Matthew
Lecture 6
23. “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25. Behold, I have told you before.
26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Chrys. When the Lord had finished all that related to Jerusalem, He came in the rest to His own coming, and gives them signs thereof, useful not for them only, but for us and for all who shall be after us. As above, the Evangelist said, “In those days came John the Baptist,” (Matt 3:1) not implying immєdιαtely after what had gone before, but thirty years after; so here, when He says, “Then,” He passes over the whole interval of time between the taking of Jerusalem and the beginnings of the consummation of the world. Among the signs which He gives of His second coming He certifies them concerning the place, and the deceivers. For it shall not be then as at His former coming, when He appeared in Bethlehem, in a corner of the world, unknown of any; but He shall come openly so as not to need any to announce His approach. Wherefore, “If any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe not.”
aquinas.cc (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~CaMatt.C24.L6)

In his Homilies on Matthew (not Opus Imperfectum), St. John Chrysostom identifies the beginnings of the consummation of the world with a time during which false prophets try to deceive, if it were possible, even the very elect.

That's one more clear statement of a Church Father, depicting the consummation of the age as a span of time which starts before the second coming of Christ.


In Lecture 6, St. Thomas Aquinas lists more quotes of the same work of St. John Chrysostom:

Quote from: Catena Aurea on Matthew
Chrys. He speaks here of Antichrist, and of certain his ministers, whom He calls false Christs and false prophets, such as were many in the time of the Apostles; but before Christ’s second coming there shall come others more bitter than the former, “And they shall show great signs and wonders.” (2 Thes 2:9)

Chrys. As He had above described in what guise Antichrist should come, so here He describes how He Himself shall come. For as the lightning needeth none to herald or announce it, but is in an instant of time visible throughout the whole world, even to those that are sitting in their chambers, so the coming of Christ shall be seen every where at once, because of the brightness of His glory. Another sign He adds of His coming, “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” The eagles denote the company of the Angels, Martyrs, and Saints.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on July 05, 2020, 09:26:07 AM
aquinas.cc (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~CaMatt.C24.L6)

In his Homilies on Matthew (not Opus Imperfectum), St. John Chrysostom identifies the beginnings of the consummation of the world with a time during which false prophets try to deceive, if it were possible, even the very elect.

That's one more clear statement of a Church Father, depicting the consummation of the age as a span of time which starts before the second coming of Christ.


In Lecture 6, St. Thomas Aquinas lists more quotes of the same work of St. John Chrysostom:
Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2020, 01:38:32 PM
In the original Greek consummation of the age reads συντελεία τοῦ αἰῶνος (syntéleia tou aiōnos).

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (https://books.google.com.br/books?id=ctWbMD0_p_UC) has the following entry on συντελεία:


(https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/?action=dlattach;attach=14447)

Quote
The word does not denote a termination, but the heading up of events to the appointed climax.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2020, 02:22:19 PM
The Wikipedia entry on Vine's Expository Dictionary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vine%27s_Expository_Dictionary) has a link to download a PDF (7MB) of the Dictionary (http://www.ultimatebiblereferencelibrary.com/Vines_Expositary_Dictionary.pdf) of William Edwy Vine.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on July 14, 2020, 04:59:12 PM
In the original Greek consummation of the age reads συντελεία τοῦ αἰῶνος (syntéleia tou aiōnos).

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (https://books.google.com.br/books?id=ctWbMD0_p_UC) has the following entry on συντελεία:


(https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/?action=dlattach;attach=14447)
Well I did refer you to the Greek of Daniel 9:27 about 6 pages back.   :cowboy:
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on July 14, 2020, 05:00:30 PM
The Septuagint of DN 9:27 of course.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2020, 06:03:50 PM
Well I did refer you to the Greek of Daniel 9:27 about 6 pages back.   :cowboy:

Yes you did. But Greek is worse than the Gospel. No chance at all without someone who explains it.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on July 15, 2020, 07:01:04 AM
Struthio,

It occurred to me this morning that Apoc. 7:3 might be very relevant here to your inquiries. In this verse, an angel tells the other 3 angels the following before the 7th seal is opened and the 7 Tɾυmρets are sounded and the wrath of God (Apoc. 6:17) is unleashed on the world:

 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=7&l=3-#x)
Quote
[3] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=7&l=3-#x) Saying: Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we sign the servants of our God in their foreheads.

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73007.htm (http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73007.htm)

The Haydock commentary on this verse says it contains an allusion to Ezekiel, where some in Jerusalem are marked before a judgment: " where God bids an Angel mark with the letter Tau the foreheads of those who should not be hurt by the judgments that were to fall upon Jerusalem."

Food for thought: this "sealing" is perhaps fully accomplished when the Gospel is preached throughout the world and then the wrath of God, cf. "the judgments that were to fall upon Jerusalem," meaning, in the last days of our age, the Church, are unleashed upon the word. This judgment is released at the "consummation of the age" - after the Gospel has been preached throughout the world and all the elect "sealed" - and then Christ returns.

Obviously, the period of the 7 Tɾυmρets (wrath of God) is of some duration, and the markers for this final phase of the age would be the mark of the "seal" of all the servants of Christ and the visible appearance of the "abomination of desolation" in the holy place.

These thoughts just occurred to me this morning and I plan to do some study on it myself, but I thought I'd share them with you.

I attach excerpts from the Haydock commentary on Apoc. 7:3 and a discussion by a Heinrich Meyer on the "sealing" in his commentary on the Greek New testament. The Meyer commentary is available here:

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/hmc/revelation-7.html (https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/hmc/revelation-7.html)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on July 15, 2020, 07:18:48 AM

Quote
Ezekiel 9:4

[4] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=31&ch=9&l=4-#x) And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof.
et dixit Dominus ad eum : Transi per mєdιαm civitatem, in medio Jerusalem, et signa thau super frontes virorum gementium et dolentium super cunctis abominationibus quae fiunt in medio ejus.


http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/31009.htm (http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/31009.htm)
(http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/31009.htm)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 15, 2020, 09:25:18 PM
Here my thoughts, DecemRationis:

Some have said that the 6th seal, the 6th Tɾυmρet, and the 6th vial concern the time of Antichrist. With the 7th seal/Tɾυmρet/vial the "kingdom of this world is become our Lord's and his Christ's". E.g.:

Quote from: Rev 8, drbo.org
[12] (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=6&l=12-#x) And I saw, when he had opened the sixth seal, and behold there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair: and the whole moon became as blood: [13] (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=6&l=13-#x) And the stars from heaven fell upon the earth, as the fig tree casteth its green figs when it is shaken by a great wind: [14] (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=6&l=14-#x) And the heaven departed as a book folded up: and every mountain, and the islands were moved out of their places

Sun/moon/stars/heaven like in e.g. Mt 24:29. During the time of Antichrist (first part of the consummation) Sun and moon (Christ and Church) "in eclipse", the fig tree (Church) loses her fruits (apostates) = stars fall from heaven (apostates). Heaven (Church) is folded up = locked down (no shepherds). Mountains and islands (=mountains of the sea) moved = all which was firm, law and order and Church teaching, put upside down.

After the sixth seal and before the seventh, in Rev 7, before the second advent the servants are marked.

Ez 9:4 "mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst midst of Jerusalem"

Mark those who didn't fall for Antichist, mourn the abominations committed during the time of Antichrist in the Church (= Jerusalem).
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 17, 2020, 08:58:42 PM
Tyconius was an African scholar, a few years older than St. Augustine of Hippo. He published at least four works, only one of which survived intact, the Book of Rules (Liber regularum).

Quote from: see attachment
In 380 Tyconius was excommunicated from the Donatists by Parmenianus at a council in Carthage.  [...] Even so, we have no evidence that he sought communion with the Catholic church in Africa. His reluctance to join the Catholic fold confounded Augustine, who could not understand why a man who wrote with such force against the Donatists would not completely disassociate himself from them. These reservations aside, when Augustine was finishing his own work on biblical hermeneutics, On Christian Teaching (De doctrina christiana), he added a summary of Tyconius's Book of Rules, calling it “quite helpful in penetrating the obscure parts of the divine writings.”

Augustine's endorsement notwithstanding, Tyconius's Book of Rules was not his most significant contribution to the intellectual tradition of Latin Christianity. His commentary on the Apocalypse [In Apocalypsin] shaped the Latin reception and interpretation of the Apocalypse for the next eight hundred years. Gennadius [of Marseilles] wrote that Tyconius “expounded the entire Apocalypse, interpreting nothing in it in a carnal sense, but wholly in a spiritual sense.” Only Victorinus of Poetovio had commented on the Apocalypse in Latin before Tyconius, and his reading is thoroughly chiliastic, or, to use Gennadius's term, “carnal.” In Tyconius's “spiritual” exposition, the apocalyptic visions of John's Revelation were given immєdιαte relevance for the present situation of the church. Latin commentators after Tyconius, most notably Primasius of Hadrumetum, Caesarius of Arles, the venerable Bede, and Beatus of Liébana, would follow his interpretation, citing him at length. Tyconius's Donatist identity was never forgotten, however. Primasius compared his use of Tyconius to picking precious gemstones out of manure. Bede softened the metaphor by describing Tyconius as a rose that blossomed among thorns.

Tyconius commentary on the Apocalypse was reconstructed by Roger Gryson from two fragments and citations of later commentators, published in 2011 in Latin and in French. For an English translation see the attachment.

Further info about Tyconius can be found in the introduction to the English translation of Gryson's reconstruction, and about his influence on Augustine e.g. in Paula Fredriksen's essay Apocalypse and Redemption in Early Christianity, From John of Patmos to Augustine of Hippo (http://www.bu.edu/religion/files/pdf/Apocalypse-and-Redemption-in-Early-Christianity.-From-John-of-Patmos-to-Augustine-of-Hippo.pdf) (most PDF viewers allow to rotate the text).


I don't agree with all details of Tyconius' commentary on the Apocalypse, but his approach overall is the most perspicuous, convincing, and systematic I have so far found.

The reason why I post this in this thread: Commenting on the opening of the sixth seal Tyconius says:

Quote from: see attachment
For it is not only in the last earthquake, when many [of the heavenly bodies = faithful] fall from heaven, that some will flee to the mountains, the mercy of the Lord. This always has happened from the passion of the Lord up until now. But at that time it will be greater, when the sign of the “falling away” will show that the day of the Lord is beginning.

Tyconius sees the day of the Lord beginning with the “falling away”, i.e. the sign given by the Apostle in 2 Thess 2. Hence the day of the Lord begins with and includes the falling away, the revelation of the man of sin, the reign of Antichrist. Maybe that's how and why St. Augustine, too, says that the reign of Antichrist may be included in the events that shall come to pass at the final judgment (see Reply #93 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg664657/#msg664657)).
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on July 18, 2020, 09:35:52 AM
Tyconius was an African scholar, a few years older than St. Augustine of Hippo. He published at least four works, only one of which survived intact, the Book of Rules (Liber regularum).

Tyconius commentary on the Apocalypse was reconstructed by Roger Gryson from two fragments and citations of later commentators, published in 2011 in Latin and in French. For an English translation see the attachment.

Further info about Tyconius can be found in the introduction to the English translation of Gryson's reconstruction, and about his influence on Augustine e.g. in Paula Fredriksen's essay Apocalypse and Redemption in Early Christianity, From John of Patmos to Augustine of Hippo (http://www.bu.edu/religion/files/pdf/Apocalypse-and-Redemption-in-Early-Christianity.-From-John-of-Patmos-to-Augustine-of-Hippo.pdf) (most PDF viewers allow to rotate the text).


I don't agree with all details of Tyconius' commentary on the Apocalypse, but his approach overall is the most perspicuous, convincing, and systematic I have so far found.

The reason why I post this in this thread: Commenting on the opening of the sixth seal Tyconius says:

Tyconius sees the day of the Lord beginning with the “falling away”, i.e. the sign given by the Apostle in 2 Thess 2. Hence the day of the Lord begins with and includes the falling away, the revelation of the man of sin, the reign of Antichrist. Maybe that's how and why St. Augustine, too, says that the reign of Antichrist may be included in the events that shall come to pass at the final judgment (see Reply #93 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg664657/#msg664657)).

Thanks. Great catch.

Which a quick perusal after looking at the Scripture Index led me to this comment on another relevant passage of the Apocalypse of John, 20:7, which talks about Satan being loosed after the one thousand years when he's bound. Then Satan goes out and surrounds the camp of the saints, etc. The thousand years seems to me to be the period of the preaching of the Gospel throughout the world, the period of the sealing of the servants of God, and then there is a period of persecution following (amend - rather during) the "end of the age."

Tyconius's comment on 20:7 attached.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on July 18, 2020, 09:39:03 AM
And here's Tychonius on the related passage of Apoc. 20:3. Again, consistent. 

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 18, 2020, 03:53:13 PM
Following Tyconius, the whole of humanity is divided into three groups:

 - good, inside: right side of the body of Christ
 - evil, inside: left side of the body of Christ (false brothers within the Church) = abomination of desolation = mystery of iniquity = son of perdition
 - evil, outside: body of the devil

The “great falling away” (2 Thess 2:3) will reveal the son of perdition, reveal the false brothers within the Church as such:

Quote from: Tyconius, page 92
He called the heathen a third part handed over to fire. Also there is another [third, consisting] of false brothers, who are mixed with the good. The [last] third is the church, which struggles against a twofold evil. This is as when God promised through Zechariah to strike the shepherds and those attached to them throughout the whole world, to scatter the sheep, and to free one but destroy two of the three parts: “Sword,” he says, “arise upon the shepherds and upon the man, my subject, says the Lord almighty. Strike the shepherds and scatter the sheep. And I shall bring my hand upon the shepherds. And it will come about in all the earth, says the Lord, that two parts will be cut off and will perish, and a third part will be left in it. And I shall bring the third part through the fire and refine them as silver is refined. And I shall test them as gold is tested. He will call upon my name, and I shall give heed to him. And I shall say, `You are my people,' and they will say, `Lord, you are my God.'” [Zec 13:7-9] Before the “falling away” [2 Thes 2:3] happens, everyone is considered the people of God. When the “falling away” will have happened, then the third part of the people of God will appear. [22]

[Footnote 22]
Tyconius's comment here provides a clear statement on anthropology, ecclesiology, and eschatology. Humanity comprises three parts. Two parts are in the church, which is bipartite, and a third is outside the church. Two evil parts will be destroyed in the Last Judgment, the worldly part and the left part of the bipartite church; however, at the present time, both parts of the bipartite church are considered “the people of God.” Only in the discessio will God's true people, the right part of the Lord's body, be revealed (cf. Lib. reg. 1.13; 3.29; 4.20.3; 6.4; 7.4, 14).


The view of Tyconius backs the idea that there will be shepherds up to the great apostasy (2 Thess 2:3).
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 18, 2020, 04:01:54 PM
Commenting on the two witnesses in Rev 11, Tyconius says:

Quote from: Tyconius, page 112
[7] And when they will finish their testimony, the beast that is rising from the abyss will make war with them. He clearly shows that all these things happen before the last persecution when he says: When they will have finished their testimony. Certainly that to which they testify, they testify to up to the time of the revelation of the beast.

The two witnesses are the Church, says Tyconius earlier, and the Church testifies up to the time of the revelation of the beast, which is the revelation of the false brothers within the Church, i.e. the son of perdition.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 29, 2020, 07:59:10 PM
Quote from: Jerome, Commentary in Isaiah 13:12
In consummatione mundi, quando orbis redactus fuerit in solitudinem, et obtenebratus sol in ortu suo, et luna splendorem suum non dederit, tanta fient ab Antichristo signa atque portenta, ut iniquitate crescente, refrigescat charitas multorum, ad decipiendos etiam si fieri potest electos Dei (Matth. XXIV).
mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2&rumpfid=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Isaiam,%20%20%206,%20%2013&id=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Isaiam,%20%20%206,%20%2013,%20%20%20%20137&level=99&level9798=&satz=137&hilite_id=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Isaiam,%20%20%206,%20%2013,%20%20%20%20137&string=consummat*&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=137#137)

St. Jerome, commenting on Isaiah 13:12, says that during the consummation of the world the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's splendor, and Antichrist will present his signs and fictions, such that growing wickedness will make freeze the charity of many, to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

St. Jerome clearly believes that the consummation of the world includes the time of the reign of Antichrist, as this quote shows and as his Commentary in Matthew shows (see Reply #137 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg703580/#msg703580)).

Various Church Fathers say that the darkened sun and moon signify "Church in eclipse" (though not necessarily using these words). In his Commentary on Daniel (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm), the wording of Jerome about the Antichrist predecessor Antiochus Epiphanes is "the religion of God suffered an eclipse".
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Clemens Maria on July 29, 2020, 08:25:32 PM
An eclipse is an excellent description of what is happening.  XavierSem would have us believe that the Church can eclipse itself or that there is no eclipse at all.  But many traditional Catholic commentators have used the eclipse analogy.  And that is what it is.  The unholy Conciliar church has eclipsed the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church still exists and there are still Catholics who profess the same faith as the saints but it is hidden as it were behind the Conciliar church which has claimed the title of the Catholic Church and stolen all her properties.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 29, 2020, 08:58:16 PM
An eclipse is an excellent description of what is happening.  XavierSem would have us believe that the Church can eclipse itself or that there is no eclipse at all.  But many traditional Catholic commentators have used the eclipse analogy.  And that is what it is.  The unholy Conciliar church has eclipsed the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church still exists and there are still Catholics who profess the same faith as the saints but it is hidden as it were behind the Conciliar church which has claimed the title of the Catholic Church and stolen all her properties.


Beside the felicitous metapher of an eclipse, there are also excellent literal descriptions of what we see today:


St. John Chrysostom explains that in the consummation of the Jєωιѕн race Jerusalem was destroyed, and what actually wasn't Jerusalem anymore, was still perceived to be Jerusalem. Analogously in the consummation of the world: The Church will be desolate, and what still will be perceived to be the Church will not be the real thing. (see Reply #56 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg664015/#msg664015))


St. Augustine reports of some who say that the Son of perdition will (to render the Greek more exactly) not sit "in the temple of God," but "as the temple of God," as if he himself were the temple of God, the Church. (see Reply #106 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg702473/#msg702473))
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 29, 2020, 09:09:43 PM
I found one more quote elsewhere on CI, which is pertinent to this topic:


Quote from: John 9:4-5
I must work the works of him that sent me, whilst it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.


Using Tyconius' rule #1, this primarily applies to the Church.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 30, 2020, 01:38:44 PM
In Reply #109 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg703069/#msg703069), DecemRationis used Isaiah 10 and 28 to show that the consummation of the age corresponds to the time of tribulation, which will be shortened or abridged. This is confirmed by Rabanus Maurus, 9th century Abbot of the Princely Abbey of Fulda and Archbishop of Mainz, commenting on Ecclesiasticus:

Quote from: Rabanus Maurus, Commentaria in Ecclesiasticum
« In tempore consummationis effundent virtutem, et furorem eius qui fecit illos placabunt. (1046C) » Tunc enim secundum Evangelicam attestationem, erunt dies illi tribulationes tales, quales non fuerunt ab initio creaturae quam condidit Deus usque nunc, neque fient: « Et nisi breviasset Dominus dies, non fuisset salva omnis caro: sed propter electos, quos elegit, breviabit dies. »
Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Rabanus_Maurus_cps2&rumpfid=Rabanus_Maurus_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Ecclesiasticum,%20%20%208,%20%2019&id=Rabanus_Maurus_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Ecclesiasticum,%20%20%208,%20%2019,%20%20%20%20%20%208&level=99&level9798=&satz=8&hilite_id=Rabanus_Maurus_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Ecclesiasticum,%20%20%208,%20%2019,%20%20%20%20%20%208&string=consummatio*&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=8#8)


Quote from: translation
"In the time of consummation they shall pour out their force: and they shall appease the wrath of him that made them." [Sir 39:34] At that time, the Gospel attests, shall be those days of such tribulations, as were not from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, neither shall be. [Mk 13:19] "And unless the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect which he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." [Mk 13:20]
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on July 30, 2020, 02:56:33 PM
mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2&rumpfid=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Isaiam,%20%20%206,%20%2013&id=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Isaiam,%20%20%206,%20%2013,%20%20%20%20137&level=99&level9798=&satz=137&hilite_id=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Isaiam,%20%20%206,%20%2013,%20%20%20%20137&string=consummat*&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=137#137)

St. Jerome, commenting on Isaiah 13:12, says that during the consummation of the world the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's splendor, and Antichrist will present his signs and fictions, such that growing wickedness will make freeze the charity of many, to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

St. Jerome clearly believes that the consummation of the world includes the time of the reign of Antichrist, as this quote shows and as his Commentary in Matthew shows (see Reply #137 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg703580/#msg703580)).

Various Church Fathers say that the darkened sun and moon signify "Church in eclipse" (though not necessarily using these words). In his Commentary on Daniel (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm), the wording of Jerome about the Antichrist predecessor Antiochus Epiphanes is "the religion of God suffered an eclipse".

There is a lot of truth in this thread, off the beaten path, there for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Those who are too few, unfortunately.

Thank you for the commentary of Jerome, saint and doctor of the Church.  He, with St. Augustine, give some weighty support to your thesis, which makes so much sense on many levels.

Things started going haywire from the late fourteenth and 15th century or so on, slowly at first, the influx of paganism and esoteric hermeticism  during the Renaissance, the relaxation of disciplinary laws regarding usury, the speculations regarding the salvation vel non of those in the New World who had not heard the Gospel, and  then the Reformation and the ʀɛʋօʟutιօns of the 18th and 19th centuries. Also significant is the Church's (and heaven's) response to this: the first Vatican Council, the apparitions at Lourdes, La Salette, Fatima.  As to the first things mentioned in this chain, Michael Hoffman has done some very informative and eye-opening work on usury and the influence of hermeticism in the hierarchy of the Church.

You noted the theologians and their "interpretation" of the universal, ordinary Magisterium in another thread. The theologians of the 19th and 20th centuries have skewed things and messed things up so bad that they made the soil fertile for Vatican II and an outright ʀɛʋօʟutιօn in the Church, an open revolt in the Church itself.

Where the "consummation" actually begins becomes difficult to define. We may differ on that. But what is clear is when the doors came off,  and the final stage of the Antichrist(s) went into effect: the Conciliar Church of Vatican II.

Again,  thank you for the scholarship and digging into the fathers and the original, early sources. Looking through the eyes of the theologians post-Trent can be a very dangerous affair, and quite hazardous to one's soul I'm afraid.

DR
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on July 30, 2020, 03:56:15 PM
Things started going haywire from the late fourteenth and 15th century or so on, slowly at first, the influx of paganism and esoteric hermeticism  during the Renaissance, the relaxation of disciplinary laws regarding usury, the speculations regarding the salvation vel non of those in the New World who had not heard the Gospel, and  then the Reformation and the ʀɛʋօʟutιօns of the 18th and 19th centuries. Also significant is the Church's (and heaven's) response to this: the first Vatican Council, the apparitions at Lourdes, La Salette, Fatima.  As to the first things mentioned in this chain, Michael Hoffman has done some very informative and eye-opening work on usury and the influence of hermeticism in the hierarchy of the Church.

The message of Tyconius is: Things started going haywire right from the beginning. The Church was bipartite ever since, including false brothers, who do the work of the body of the devil. It's been "the last hour" when St. John said so. "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour." The mystery of iniquity already was at work when the Apostle said so.

At the 1960s robber council, the cockle had their "great coming out".

What was it what the Apostel called "what withholdeth"? I think, it must have been the Faith. Out Lord took it out of the way of Antichrist, by sending the operation of error that they believe lying.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 01, 2020, 09:56:17 AM
Quote from: Zacharias 11, drbo.org
[15] And the Lord said to me: Take to thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. [16] For behold I will raise up a shepherd in the land, who shall not visit what is forsaken, nor seek what is scattered, nor heal what is broken, nor nourish that which standeth, and he shall eat the flesh of the fat ones, and break their hoofs.

In one more place, St. Jerome of Stridon, one of the four Great Latin Church Fathers, identifies the foolish shepherd announced by Zacharias as the Antichrist who is said to come in the consummation of the world:

Quote from: Hieronymus Stridonensis, Commentaria in Zachariam
Pastor stultus, et imperitus, haud dubium quin Antichristus sit; qui in consummatione mundi dicitur esse venturus, et qualis venturus sit, indicatur.

Quote from: translation
The foolish and unversed shepherd, without a doubt is Antichrist who is said to come in the consummation of the world. And the kind of his coming is indicated.

Quote from: Rupertus Tuitiensis, Commentaria in duodecim prophetas minores
Pastor stultus et imperitus Antichristus est, qui in consummatione saeculi dicitur esse venturus.

Quote from: Haymo Halberstatensis, Enarratio in duodecim prophetas minores
Pastor stultus et imperitus Antichristus est, qui in consummatione saeculi dicitur esse venturus.

Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/advsuchergebnis.php?suchbegriff=%20imperitus%20Antichristus&table=&level2_name=&from_year=&to_year=&mode=SPH_MATCH_EXTENDED2&lang=0&corpus=2&verses=&lemmatised=&suchenin=corpus)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 07, 2020, 09:45:26 AM
In his commentary on Daniel, St. Jerome says that the consummation will be executed by Antichrist, will take place in Antichrist. The will of Antichrist will be directed by God, until the wrath of God is fulfilled, until the words of God are fulfilled.


Quote from: St. Jerome in Danielem 11:36
Sive ut alius interpretatus est; "in ipso enim erit consummatio". Ab hoc loco Iudaei dici de Antichristo putant, quod post Iuliani parvum auxilium surrecturus sit rex qui faciat iuxta voluntatem suam, et elevetur contra omne quod dicitur deus, et adversum Deum deorum loquatur magnifica: ita ut sedeat in templo Dei, et seipsum faciat Deum, et dirigatur voluntas eius, donec compleatur ira Dei, quia in ipso erit consummatio. Quod quidem et nos de Antichristo intelligimus. Porphyrius autem et caeteri qui sequuntur eum, de Antiocho Epiphane dici arbitrantur [...]
Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2&rumpfid=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Danielem,%20%20%20%20%20p2&id=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Danielem,%20%20%20%20%20p2,%20%20%201131&level=99&level9798=&satz=1131&hilite_id=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2,%20Commentaria%20in%20Danielem,%20%20%20%20%20p2,%20%20%201131&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=1131#1131)


Quote from: St. Jerome in Danielem 11:36, translated by Gleason L. Archer
Or else, as another has translated it: "for in him shall be the consummation." The Jҽωs believe that this passage has reference to the Antichrist, alleging that after the small help of Julian a king is going to rise up who shall do according to his own will and shall lift himself up against all that is called god, and shall speak arrogant words against the God of gods. He shall act in such a way as to sit in the Temple of God and shall make himself out to be God, and his will shall be prospered [dirigatur: guided, directed] until the wrath of God is fulfilled, for in him the consummation will take place. We too understand this to refer to the Antichrist. But Porphyry and the others who follow his lead suppose the reference to be to Antiochus Epiphanes [...]
tertullian.org (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm)


See also:

Quote from: Rev 17, drbo.org
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest in the beast: these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her with fire.

Et decem cornua, quae vidisti in bestia : hi odient fornicariam, et desolatam facient illam, et nudam, et carnes ejus manducabunt, et ipsam igni concremabunt.

[17] For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Deus enim dedit in corda eorum ut faciant quod placitum est illi : ut dent regnum suum bestiae donec consummentur verba Dei.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 10, 2020, 07:22:05 AM
Anselm of Laon, dean and chancelor of the cathedral as well as archdeacon of Laon in northern France, lived around 1100. He was a theologian and founder of a school of scholars, whose greatest work is the Glossa ordinaria, an interlinear and marginal gloss. The Patrologia Latina has more than 60 of his comments on books of the Old and the New Testaments.

On the book of Judith, Anselm comments:

Quote from: Anselmus Laudunensis et schola Glossa ordina, Liber Iudith, CAPUT II.
VERS. 17. - « Descendit in campos. » Damascus potus sanguinis interpretatur, in qua principes gentium exprimuntur, who thirst for the blood of the faithful: qui sitiunt sanguinem fidelium: maxime in tempore messis, id est, in consummatione saeculi debacchante per latitudinem orbis furore Antichristi.
Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Anselmus_Laudunensis_et_schola_Glossa_ordina_cps2&rumpfid=Anselmus_Laudunensis_et_schola_Glossa_ordina_cps2,%20Liber%20Iudith,%20%20%202&id=Anselmus_Laudunensis_et_schola_Glossa_ordina_cps2,%20Liber%20Iudith,%20%20%202,%20%20%20%20%2011&level=99&level9798=&satz=11&hilite_id=Anselmus_Laudunensis_et_schola_Glossa_ordina_cps2,%20Liber%20Iudith,%20%20%202,%20%20%20%20%2011&string=consummatio*!Antichrist*&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=11#11)

Quote from: translation
VERSE 17. - "went down into the plains." Damascus is understood to be a drinking of blood, in which the princes of the Gentiles are pictured, who thirst for the blood of the faithful: above all in the time of the harvest, that is, in the consummation of the age when the madness of Antichrist is raging all over the world.

In Isaiah 34 the great apostasy is pictured as "all the host of the heavens falling down as the leaf falleth from the vine, and from the fig tree", and Antichrist as the "inebriated sword" coming down "upon the people of my slaughter unto judgment." The flock is not gathered and nourished but rather slaughtered and devoured. Similarly in Zacharias 11:16, Antichrist is a shepherd who slaughters and devours his fat flock (see Reply #162 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg709593/#msg709593)).

In the book of Judith 2:17, Antichrist is depicted not as a mad cattle-breeder, but as a mad wheat farmer and orchard- and winegrower:

Quote from: Judith 2, drbo.org
[17] And after these things he went down into the plains of Damascus in the days of the harvest, and he set all the corn on fire, and he caused all the trees and vineyards to be cut down.

Following Anselm of Laon, at the time of the harvest, which is the consummation of the age (Mt 13:39), Antichrist will be allowed to rage and, thirsting for the blood of the faithful, destroy (most of) the harvest of Our Lord.


Again, the consummation of the age includes the reign of Antichrist before the second coming of Our Lord.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 10, 2020, 09:03:54 AM
Anselm of Laon (see my previous post above) on Mt 24:16-18:

Quote from: Anselmus Laudunensis, Ennarrationes in Matthaeum
Si autem haec omnia de consummatione saeculi intelligantur, mystice accipienda sunt, ut ita dicamus: Tunc qui sunt in Iudaea, hoc est in confessione verae fidei sunt, fugiant ad montes, hoc est culmen virtutum ascendant, et qui super tectum est, id est qui carnem, qua anima tegitur, superavit, non descendat ad infimos actus pristinae conversationis, neque desideria carnis repetat. Et qui in agro est, id est qui operatur in Ecclesia sicut Paulus plantando, et Apollo rigando, non revertatur tollere tunicam suam, id est non repetat saecularia, quibus se nudaverat.
Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Anselmus_Laudunensis_cps2&rumpfid=Anselmus_Laudunensis_cps2,%20Ennarrationes%20in%20Matthaeum,%20%2024&id=Anselmus_Laudunensis_cps2,%20Ennarrationes%20in%20Matthaeum,%20%2024,%20%20%20%20%2068&level=99&level9798=&satz=68&hilite_id=Anselmus_Laudunensis_cps2,%20Ennarrationes%20in%20Matthaeum,%20%2024,%20%20%20%20%2068&string=Iudaea!confessione!fidei!Fugiant!montes&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=68#68)


Quote from: Anselmus Laudunensis, Ennarrationes in Matthaeum, translation
But if we understand this of the consummation of the age, it's to be taken mystically, in the following way: Then they who are in Judea, that is confessing the true faith, flee to the mountains, that is climb to the top of virtue, and he who is on the housetop, that is who rose above the flesh which is covered by the soul, should not come down to the low acts of the early conversion, and not fall again into the desires of the flesh. And he who is on the field, that is who is planting in the Church like Paul and irrigating like Apollo, should not return to take his coat, that is not return to doing worldly things, making himself naked.

Mt 24:16-18 is understood to pertain to the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70 as well as to the consummation of the age, when Antichrist and his body go to destroy the new Jerusalem, the City of God, the Church. The flight reminds of the judgment of Babylon, the harlot, Rev 18:

Quote from: Rev 18, drbo.org
[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.

Anselm understands the flight (which was corporeally in A.D. 70) as spiritually or mystically at the consummation of the age.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 15, 2020, 09:16:20 AM
St. Bruno di Segni lived around A.D. 1100. He served as Abbot of Montecassino, as Bishop of Segni, and he counselled four consecutive popes. In his Exposition on the Psalms, Bruno says that in the consummation of the age the Church will have to suffer those great tribulations, as have not been neither shall be at any other time.

Quote from: Bruno Astensis, Expositio in Psalmos
Magnas autem tribulationes in tempore apostolorum et martyrum sustinuit, et in saeculi consummatione passura est. « Erit enim tunc tribulatio talis, qualis non fuit, neque fiet (Matth. XXIV, 21) . »
Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Bruno_Astensis_cps2&rumpfid=Bruno_Astensis_cps2,%20Expositio%20in%20Psalmos,%20%20%204&id=Bruno_Astensis_cps2,%20Expositio%20in%20Psalmos,%20%20%204,%20%20%20%20%20%205&level=99&level9798=&satz=5&hilite_id=Bruno_Astensis_cps2,%20Expositio%20in%20Psalmos,%20%20%204,%20%20%20%20%20%205&string=consummatio*!tribulatio*&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=5#5)


Quote from: Bruno Astensis, Expositio in Psalmos, translation
But she [the Church] suffered great tribulations in the time of the Apostles und Martyrs, and she will have to endure such in the consummation of the age. "For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be." (Mt 24:21)

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 23, 2020, 07:29:39 AM
Saint and Martyr Cyprian, 3rd century bishop of Carthage, was the pre-eminent Latin writer of the Church before St. Jerome and St. Augustine. Here what these two great Church Fathers said about St. Cyprian:

Quote from: St. Jerome, De viris illustribus
Huius ingenii superfluum est indicem texere, cum sole clariora sint eius opera.
Quote from: St. Jerome, De viris illustribus, translation
It is unnecessary to catalogue the works of his genius, since they are more conspicuous than the sun.

Quote from: St. Augustine, Sermo 335K
Quam eloquens sanctus Cyprianus, quam fulgens framea eius in litteris eius apparuit.
Quote from: St. Augustine, Sermo 335K, translation
How eloquent Saint Cyprian was, how radiant his sword appears in his letters.


Cyprian believes that the time of Antichrist is part of the consummation of the world. This is manifested by the opening paragraph of a letter addressed to Fortunatus:

Quote from: Cyprianus Carthaginensis, Ad Fortunatum
Desiderasti, Fortunate carissime, ut quoniam pressurarum et persecutionum pondus incumbit et in fine adque in consummatione mundi antichristi tempus infestum adpropinquare iam coepit, ad praeparandas et corroborandas fratrum mentes de diuinis scripturis hortamenta conponerem quibus milites Christi ad spiritale et caeleste certamen animarem.
Scriptores Ecclesiastici, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19&rumpfid=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19,%20Ad%20Fortunatum%20%5BCSEL%5D,%20%20%201,%20%20%201&id=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19,%20Ad%20Fortunatum%20%5BCSEL%5D,%20%20%201,%20%20%201,%20%20%20%20%20%202&level=99&level9798=&satz=2&hilite_id=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19,%20Ad%20Fortunatum%20%5BCSEL%5D,%20%20%201,%20%20%201,%20%20%20%20%20%202&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=2#2)

Quote from: Cyprianus Carthaginensis, Ad Fortunatum, translation
You have desired, beloved Fortunatus, that since the burden of pressures and persecutions is lying heavy upon us, and the hostile time of Antichrist in the end and consummation of the world is already beginning to draw near, I would collect from the divine Scriptures some exhortations for preparing and strengthening the minds of the brethren, to animate the soldiers of Christ for the heavenly and spiritual contest.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on August 27, 2020, 10:11:10 AM
Saint and Martyr Cyprian, 3rd century bishop of Carthage, was the pre-eminent Latin writer of the Church before St. Jerome and St. Augustine. Here what these two great Church Fathers said about St. Cyprian:


Cyprian believes that the time of Antichrist is part of the consummation of the world. This is manifested by the opening paragraph of a letter addressed to Fortunatus:
Scriptores Ecclesiastici, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19&rumpfid=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19,%20Ad%20Fortunatum%20%5BCSEL%5D,%20%20%201,%20%20%201&id=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19,%20Ad%20Fortunatum%20%5BCSEL%5D,%20%20%201,%20%20%201,%20%20%20%20%20%202&level=99&level9798=&satz=2&hilite_id=Cyprianus_Carthaginensis_cps19,%20Ad%20Fortunatum%20%5BCSEL%5D,%20%20%201,%20%20%201,%20%20%20%20%20%202&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=2#2)
There are implications to this thread in other areas, and all relate to a critical definition of terms, which as Aristotle and St. Thomas I think agree is a necessary beginning before there can be any reliable discourse.

We see this all over the place: what is "necessity" when it comes to the sacrament of baptism, or when it comes to the Church and salvation; what does the "infallibility" or "indefectibility" of the Church mean, and when is the Magisterium infallible or indefectible (if it is)?  My own view is that the thought and definitions of the theologians, and even the teaching Church (at least most definitely in instances below the level of the universal, ordinary Magisterium certainly, even in the "authentic" Magisterium - witness Pope Francis) created problems in this regard that lead to and inspired the errors of Vatican II.

Unaddressed ambiguities or failures in definitions of terms - below the level of the extraordinary or universal, ordinary Magisterium - have plagued the Church.

I think herein there are vestiges of truth in the criticisms of "Feeneyites" that have not been granted proper scrutiny, and which are the intellectual foundations (the practical being the "ecumenical" actions and behaviors of prelates such as Archbishop Cushing) behind the phenomenon of Feeneyism.  

I think, Struthio, you have done some yeoman's work in this area when it comes to the definitions and understandings of "the consummation of the world/age," which, if thought to be simply the absolute end of time,  the final period to this manifestation of life on earth, leads to the conundrum of the "gates of hell not prevailing" in the heretical or at least contradictory (in reference to the prior teachings of the Magisterium) teachings of  the ecclesia docens of the Conciliar Church, whose latest exemplar is Bergolio.

Can you hear the canned laughter there? I can.

Seems to me you either have a violation of the law of contradiction (which is unacceptable for the organ of the Revelation of God, the Church), or a false understanding prevalent regarding "consummation of the age" or how or in what sense the "gates of hell don't prevail" . . . one or the other.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 28, 2020, 02:45:04 PM
There are implications to this thread in other areas, and all relate to a critical definition of terms, which as Aristotle and St. Thomas I think agree is a necessary beginning before there can be any reliable discourse.

We see this all over the place: what is "necessity" when it comes to the sacrament of baptism, or when it comes to the Church and salvation; what does the "infallibility" or "indefectibility" of the Church mean, and when is the Magisterium infallible or indefectible (if it is)?  My own view is that the thought and definitions of the theologians, and even the teaching Church (at least most definitely in instances below the level of the universal, ordinary Magisterium certainly, even in the "authentic" Magisterium - witness Pope Francis) created problems in this regard that lead to and inspired the errors of Vatican II.

As far as I can see, Indefectibility of the Church and Infallibility of the Church are concepts of theologians and not teachings of the Magisterium proposed to be believed by the faithful. Each theologian gives his own definition of these/such terms and then quotes the Magisterium, Fathers, etc. to convince his readers. There are related propositions we have to believe, but it's not easy to find them all.

E.g. Ludwig Ott: Die Kirche ist indefektibel, d.h. sie bleibt bis zum Ende der Welt als die von Christus gestiftete Heilsanstalt bestehen. (The Church is indefectible, i.e. she shall persist until to the end of the world as the salvific institution founded by Christ.) Then he qualifies this as Sententia certa. This "definition" is then wrapped into a lot of text stating various seemingly related propositions, garnished with quotes of Councils, Popes, Fathers etc.

Theology is not mathematics, and even in mathematics many terms include the name of a mathematician to make sure the reader knows how the term is defined. Let's speak about Hilbert space or Ott indefectibility.

Now, Ott doesn't even care to mention what "until to the end of the world" exactly means. His first quote is taken from the Vatican Council, but he neither quotes the first paragraph of Dei filius nor of Pastor aeternus. Later on though, he does quote Mt 28:20 (consummation of the age translated to German as Ende der Welt).

Quote from: Vatican Council
Dei Filius et generis humani Redemptor Dominus Noster Iesus Christus, ad Patrem caelestem rediturus, cum Ecclesia sua in terris militante, omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi futurum se esse promisit.

The Son of God, redeemer of the human race, Our Lord Jesus Christ, when about to return to his heavenly Father, promised that he would be with his church militant upon earth all days even to the future consummation of the age.


Quote from: Vatican Council
Pastor aeternus [...] ita in Ecclesia sua Pastores et Doctores usque ad consummationem saeculi esse voluit.

The eternal shepherd [...] in like manner it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the age.


By quoting Mt 28:20, until the consummation of the age, the Vatican Council redirects the readers to scripture and the exegesis of the Fathers. Anyone praying the Divine Office (at the time of the Vatican Council), read the exegesis of St. Jerome on Matthew 24:15-35 once a year on the last Sunday after Pentecost; Jerome equates the consummation of the age and the abomination of desolation and the reign of Antichrist.

There must be a reason, why theologians of more recent times seem unaware of the subtleties of the term consummation of the age used right at the beginning of Dei Filius and Pastor aeternus. I can only guess: The Apostle Paul speaks about an operation of error sent by God to lead many to the slaughterhouse of Antichrist. CI user Incredulous has it in his signature: in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer ("deathbed warning of St. Francis of Assisi"). Some of the Old Testament prophets announce that God will send a pastor stultus, a foolhardy shepherd, who will slaughter and sell the flock. Or alternatively (for vegans) at harvest time the fields are burnt down, the vines and olive trees are cut down. The bad shepherd or grower is identified as Antichrist by the Fathers. God's sword is inebriated in heaven (apostate bishops of the Church) it shall come down upon the people of my slaughter unto judgment (Is 34:5). If God sends the operation of error to ensure that those sheep who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity don't flee from Juda, it may be convenient that the manuals of theologians do not tell all the details about the consummation of the age. But as I said, that's just a guess.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on August 28, 2020, 05:07:44 PM
As far as I can see, Indefectibility of the Church and Infallibility of the Church are concepts of theologians and not teachings of the Magisterium proposed to be believed by the faithful. Each theologian gives his own definition of these/such terms and then quotes the Magisterium, Fathers, etc. to convince his readers. There are related propositions we have to believe, but it's not easy to find them all.

E.g. Ludwig Ott: Die Kirche ist indefektibel, d.h. sie bleibt bis zum Ende der Welt als die von Christus gestiftete Heilsanstalt bestehen. (The Church is indefectible, i.e. she shall persist until to the end of the world as the salvific institution founded by Christ.) Then he qualifies this as Sententia certa. This "definition" is then wrapped into a lot of text stating various seemingly related propositions, garnished with quotes of Councils, Popes, Fathers etc.

Theology is not mathematics, and even in mathematics many terms include the name of a mathematician to make sure the reader knows how the term is defined. Let's speak about Hilbert space or Ott indefectibility.

Now, Ott doesn't even care to mention what "until to the end of the world" exactly means. His first quote is taken from the Vatican Council, but he neither quotes the first paragraph of Dei filius nor of Pastor aeternus. Later on though, he does quote Mt 28:20 (consummation of the age translated to German as Ende der Welt).



By quoting Mt 28:20, until the consummation of the age, the Vatican Council redirects the readers to scripture and the exegesis of the Fathers. Anyone praying the Divine Office (at the time of the Vatican Council), read the exegesis of St. Jerome on Matthew 24:15-35 once a year on the last Sunday after Pentecost; Jerome equates the consummation of the age and the abomination of desolation and the reign of Antichrist.

There must be a reason, why theologians of more recent times seem unaware of the subtleties of the term consummation of the age used right at the beginning of Dei Filius and Pastor aeternus. I can only guess: The Apostle Paul speaks about an operation of error sent by God to lead many to the slaughterhouse of Antichrist. CI user Incredulous has it in his signature: in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer ("deathbed warning of St. Francis of Assisi"). Some of the Old Testament prophets announce that God will send a pastor stultus, a foolhardy shepherd, who will slaughter and sell the flock. Or alternatively (for vegans) at harvest time the fields are burnt down, the vines and olive trees are cut down. The bad shepherd or grower is identified as Antichrist by the Fathers. God's sword is inebriated in heaven (apostate bishops of the Church) it shall come down upon the people of my slaughter unto judgment (Is 34:5). If God sends the operation of error to ensure that those sheep who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity don't flee from Juda, it may be convenient that the manuals of theologians do not tell all the details about the consummation of the age. But as I said, that's just a guess.
Yes, excellent observations. 

I think this is an important point to keep in view: the Church (pope and bishops) are the Magisterium of the New Covenant and replaced the Magisterium (high priest, Levitical priesthood, Pharisees) of the Old Covenant. Look to the Old Testament and see what it says about the "Magisterium" of Old Israel; it will be instructive as to what we experience under the New Covenant - we are told to do this. Romans 15:4, I Corinthians 10:11, etc.  

The "Magisterium" of Israel didn't recognize the Messiah,  and was not "indefectible"; quite the opposite, and it was much worse than merely having the privation of that quality.  

That God would withhold certain things from the Magisterium, that it would not see some things, is no cause for wonder in light of the Scriptural precedent of Israel. 

And Israel also thought it was beyond certain evils and judgments because of its ɛƖɛctıon and chosen position; just read the prophets.

The things revealed belong to us and our children (the Church collectively) - and that's far from everything - and the secret things belong unto God. 
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 29, 2020, 11:29:30 AM
Ioannes Damascenus, Saint John of Damascus, Doctor of the Church, often referred to as the Doctor of the Assumption due to his writings on the Assumption of Mary, teaches that Antichrist comes at the consummation of the age:

Quote from: St. John of Damascus, DE FIDE ORTHODOXA
CHAPTER XXVI. Concerning the Antichrist.

It should be known that the Antichrist is bound to come. Every one, therefore, who confesses not that the Son of God came in the flesh and is perfect God and became perfect man, after being God, is Antichrist. But in a peculiar and special sense he who comes at the consummation of the age is called Antichrist.
documentacatholicaomnia.eu (https://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0675-0749,_Ioannes_Damascenus,_De_Fide_Orthodoxa,_EN.pdf)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 29, 2020, 02:27:22 PM
Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?

"Gates of Hell"? Does that not strike any bells?
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on August 29, 2020, 07:07:50 PM
Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?

"Gates of Hell"? Does that not strike any bells?

What does "prevail" mean? Neither I nor Struthio believe hell will prevail over the Church. In my understanding, "prevail" means win the war, permanently defeat the enemy. Satan and hell will not "prevail."

Now, whether they have a position of victory for a time is another matter. Here is no less an authority than Cardinal Manning:


Quote
So too, He said, when He stood before Pilate, “Thou shouldst not have any power against Me, unless it were given thee from above.” [62] It was the will of God; it was the concession of the Father that Pilate had power over His incarnate Son. Again, He said, “Thinkest thou that I cannot ask My Father, and He will give Me presently more than twelve legions of angels? how then shall the Scripture be fulfilled?” [63] In like manner with His Church. Until the hour is come when the barrier shall, by the Divine will, be taken out of the way, no one has power to lay a hand upon it. The gates of hell may war against it; they may strive and wrestle, as they struggle now, with the Vicar of our Lord; but no one has the power to move Him one step, until the hour shall come when the Son of God shall permit, for a time, the powers of evil to prevail. That He will permit it for a time stands in the book of prophecy. When the hindrance is taken away, the man of sin will be revealed; then will come the persecution of three years and a half, short, but terrible, during which the Church of God will return into its state of suffering, as in the beginning; and the imperishable Church of God, by its inextinguishable life derived from the pierced side of Jesus, which for three hundred years lived on through blood, will live on still through the fires of the times of Antichrist.

Manning, Archbishop Henry. The Present Crisis of the Holy See . Desert Will Flower iPress. Kindle Edition

No, the "gates of hell" will not prevail.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 29, 2020, 07:46:42 PM
Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?

Quote the definition of indefectibility of your favourite theologian, and I can answer your question and tell you whether I dismiss it or not. I don't dismiss Ott indefectibility, since Ott speaks of indefectibilty until to the end of the world, and then renders the date of expiry more precisely, quoting Mt 28:20. Probably most recent theologians base their lecture on indefectibility primarily on Pastor aeternus and therefore at least implicitly on Mt 28:20 specifying usque ad consummationem saeculi as date of expiry.  

And no, the concept is not modern.

But why ask theologians? We have the infallible General Vatican Council unambiguously teaching:

Quote from: General Vatican Council, Pastor aeternus
Pastor aeternus [...]; ita in Ecclesia sua Pastores et Doctores usque ad consummationem saeculi esse voluit.

In a peculiar and special sense, he who comes at the consummation of the age is called Antichrist. (Saint John of Damascus)


"Gates of Hell"? Does that not strike any bells?

Two bells are ringing:  Reply #11 by forlorn, Reply #12 by Struthio.


By the way, I haven't seen you since page 7. What is your comment on all the quotes I posted of the Fathers and Doctors and Saints and Bishops of the Church? Do you retract your accusation against me that I "twist Our Lord's words" (Reply #90) or do you accuse them, too?
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 30, 2020, 08:14:12 AM
Hildegard von Bingen on the indefectibility of the Church:

Quote from: Scivias Hildegardis, Visio undecima
Quod Ecclesia a perfectione sua fulget in decore justitiae usque ad tempus Antichristi.
clerus.org (http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/it/kn4.htm)

Quote from: Scivias Hildegardis, Visio undecima, translation
Because by her perfection the Church sparkles in the adornment of justice up to the time of Antichrist.

Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 30, 2020, 08:55:29 AM
By the way, I haven't seen you since page 7. What is your comment on all the quotes I posted of the Fathers and Doctors and Saints and Bishops of the Church? Do you retract your accusation against me that I "twist Our Lord's words" (Reply #90) or do you accuse them, too?
You made several posts in a row ignoring everything I was saying and calling me an alcoholic, even telling me to stop responding, and now you're mad that I did?

You're ridiculous.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 30, 2020, 09:29:02 AM
And concerning the topic, forlorn, do you accuse the Fathers and Doctors and Saints and Bishops of the Church to "twist Our Lord's words", too?


I answered your question: "Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?"
Please answer mine!
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: forlorn on August 30, 2020, 10:04:42 AM
And concerning the topic, forlorn, do you accuse the Fathers and Doctors and Saints and Bishops of the Church to "twist Our Lord's words", too?


I answered your question: "Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?"
Please answer mine!
You can waddle on to page 6 and 7 to read what I said.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on August 30, 2020, 10:36:01 AM
Remigius of Auxerre was a Benedictine monk during the Carolingian period. He taught in Reims and in Paris and earned the reputation of  "egregius doctor" and "in divinis et humanis scripturis eruditissimus".

Commenting on Gen 15:14, Remigius says that during the end of the age Antichrist will rage.

Quote from: Gen 15:12, drbo.org
And when the sun was setting, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a great and darksome horror seized upon him.

Cumque sol occumberet, sopor irruit super Abram, et horror magnus et tenebrosus invasit eum.

Quote from: Remigius Antissiodorensis, Commentarius in Genesim, 15:12
The setting of the sun signifies the end of the age, when due to Antichrist there shall be gloomy trembling, that is persecution or confusion.

Solis occubitus finem saeculi significat, quando per Antichristum tenebrosus horror, id est persecutio vel perturbatio futura est.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on September 03, 2020, 03:07:17 PM
Earlier in this thread (Reply #93) I quoted St. Augustine, who says that the last judgment may or may not include the reign of Antichrist.

Concerning the finis saeculi he is not uncertain, and includes the reign of Antichrist in the end of the age:


Quote from: St. Augustine, De civitate Dei, Liber XXI, Caput XXVI
Erit etiam in fine saeculi tribulatio tempore Antichristi, qualis nunquam antea fuit.
Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Augustinus_Hipponensis_cps2&rumpfid=Augustinus_Hipponensis_cps2,%20De%20civitate%20Dei,%20%2021,%20%2026,%20%20%204&id=Augustinus_Hipponensis_cps2,%20De%20civitate%20Dei,%20%2021,%20%2026,%20%20%204,%20%20%20%20%20%204&level=99&level9798=&satz=4&hilite_id=Augustinus_Hipponensis_cps2,%20De%20civitate%20Dei,%20%2021,%20%2026,%20%20%204,%20%20%20%20%20%204&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=4#4)

Quote from: St. Augustine, De civitate Dei, Liber XXI, Caput XXVI, translation
Moreover, in the end of the age there shall be tribulation during the time of Antichrist, such as has never before been.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on September 03, 2020, 03:16:35 PM
Venerable Bede sees the end of the age as a span of time, when Antichrist will reign:


Quote from: Beda, Explanatio Apocalypsis, Liber tertius, Caput XVII
Antichristus qui in fine saeculi regnaturus est, ...
Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabelle=Beda_cps2&rumpfid=Beda_cps2,%20Explanatio%20Apocalypsis,%20%20%203,%20%2017&id=Beda_cps2,%20Explanatio%20Apocalypsis,%20%20%203,%20%2017,%20%20%20%20%2042&level=99&level9798=&satz=42&hilite_id=Beda_cps2,%20Explanatio%20Apocalypsis,%20%20%203,%20%2017,%20%20%20%20%2042&binary=&corpus=&target=&lang=0&home=&von=suchergebnis&hide_apparatus=1&inframe=1&jumpto=42#42)


Quote from: Beda, Explanatio Apocalypsis, Liber tertius, Caput XVII, translation
Antichrist, who is to reign in the end of the age, ...
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on September 03, 2020, 03:34:40 PM
Then, there is also Charlemagne, Holy Roman Emperor, saying that Antichrist will arrive at the very end of the age:


Quote from: Carolus Magnus, De imaginibus, Liber Primus, Caput XX
Adventum vero Antichristi, finem saeculi extremi, discrimen iudicii et aeternam bonorum gloriam, poenamque reproborum, concordi utrumque Testamentum veritate profatur.

Quote from: Carolus Magnus, De imaginibus, Liber Primus, Caput XX, translation
The actual arrival of Antichrist, at the very end of the age, the judgment separating, the eternal glory of the good and the punishment of the reprobate, is truely spelled out in both testaments concordantly.

(https://upload.wikimєdια.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Charlemagne_denier_Mayence_812_814.jpg)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on September 06, 2020, 08:48:46 AM
In his Enarrationes in Apocalypsin, Anselm of Laon, founder of the Glossa ordinaria (see Reply #164), gives an interesting interpretation of the voices of the seven thunders of Rev 10:3.

At the beginning of his comment on Chapter 10, Anselm sums up the last part of Chapter 9, the sounding of the 6th Tɾυmρet which is about the raging of Antichrist in the Church:

Quote from: Anselmus Laudunensis, Enarrationes in Apocalypsin, Caput X
Descripta persecutione quae erit tempore Antichristi in Ecclesia, ponit econtra auxilium quod imminet eis, scilicet Christum.
Quote from: translation
Having described the persecution which will happen during the time of Antichrist in the Church, he [John] puts in contrast the help which is imminent, which of course is Christ.

After the 6th Tɾυmρet of chapter 9, in chapter 10 John meets an Angel with a little book flipped open.

Quote from: Rev 10, drbo.org
[1] And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven [...]
[2] And he had in his hand a little book open [...]
[3] And he cried with a loud voice as when a lion roareth. And when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
[4] And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Seal up the things which the seven thunders have spoken; and write them not.

Anselm explains that the crying of the angel like the roaring of a lion refers to the preaching of the Church, while the voices of the seven thunders concern the time of Antichrist. He explains why John is asked to write not what the thunders spoke. The reason is not to conceal something from the faithful, but rather from the infidels. The reason is given in Mt 7:6 don't cast pearls before swine. The fact that John seals up the things that the thunders spoke and writes them not, signifies to us that in the time of Antichrist preaching will cease.

Quote from: Anselmus Laudunensis, Enarrationes in Apocalypsin, Caput X
Hic per suam personam ubi scribere prohibetur, significat nobis quod tempore Antichristi praedicatio cessabit.
Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xanfang.php?tabelle=Anselmus_Laudunensis_cps2&corpus=2&allow_download=0&lang=0)


Anselm's interpretation of the sealing up of the things the seven thunders have spoken, to signify that preaching will cease, fits well with the teaching of the Vatican Council, that there will be shepherds and doctors usque ad consummationem saeculi.
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: DecemRationis on September 07, 2020, 07:29:10 AM
Quote
Nahum 1

[7] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=39&ch=1&l=7-#x) The Lord is good and giveth strength in the day of trouble: and knoweth them that hope in him.
Bonus Dominus, et confortans in die tribulationis, et sciens sperantes in se.
[8] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=39&ch=1&l=8-#x) But with a flood that passeth by, he will make an utter end of the place thereof: and darkness shall pursue his enemies.
Et in diluvio praetereunte consummationem faciet loci ejus, et inimicos ejus persequentur tenebrae.
[9] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=39&ch=1&l=9-#x) What do ye devise against the Lord? he will make an utter end: there shall not rise a double affliction.
Quid cogitatis contra Dominum? Consummationem ipse faciet : non consurget duplex tribulatio,
[10] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=39&ch=1&l=10-#x) For as thorns embrace one another: so while they are feasting and drinking together, they shall be consumed as stubble that is fully dry.
quia sicut spinae se invicem complectuntur, sic convivium eorum pariter potantium; consumentur quasi stipula ariditate plena.
[11] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=39&ch=1&l=11-#x) Out of thee shall come forth one that imagineth evil against the Lord, contriving treachery in his mind.
Ex te exibit cogitans contra Dominum malitiam, mente pertractans praevaricationem.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/39001.htm
Struthio,

According to the CE, St. Jerome wrote a commentary on Nahum - it cites, for example - "Still, it is in Galilee (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06341c.htm) that St. Jerome (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08341a.htm) located the birthplace of Nahum ("Comment. in Nah." in P.L., XXV, 1232)," https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10670a.htm.

Just curious if you have ever read anything regarding any comment Jerome may have made on the above passage?


Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on September 07, 2020, 02:09:11 PM
Just curious if you have ever read anything regarding any comment Jerome may have made on the above passage?

No, not yet, not until I read your post.

The whole book of Nahum, literally concerning the Assyrian city of Nineveh, anagogically understood deals with the consummation of the world, says St. Jerome in his Commentaria in Naum.

I find the idiom consummationem facere (make an utter end) in Nahum 1:8 as well as Nahum 1:9 very interesting. Concerning the dies tribulationis of Nahum 1:7, Jerome says

Quote from: Hieronymus Stridonensis, Commentaria in Naum
Diem autem tribulationis secundum anagogén, diem intelligamus iudicii, de quo scripsit Isaias: Ecce dies Domini insanabilis venit furoris et irae, ponere orbem terrae desertum, et peccatores perdere ex eo (Isai. XIII, 9)
Quote from: Hieronymus Stridonensis, Commentaria in Naum, translation
Anagogically, we understand that the day of tribulation is Judgment Day, about which Isaiah wrote: Behold, the day of the Lord shall come, a [cruel] day [and full of indignation and] of wrath, and fury, to lay the land desolate, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (Is 13:9)

One more confirmation for the formula: Day of Wrath = Judgment Day = time of tribulation ( = time of the reign of Antichrist).


Patrologia, mlat.uzh.ch, Hieronymus Stridonensis: Commentaria in Naum (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xanfang.php?tabelle=Hieronymus_Stridonensis_cps2&corpus=2&allow_download=0&lang=0)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on September 13, 2020, 11:44:12 AM
Francisco Suárez, the Spanish Jesuit, also called Doctor Eximius et Pius (Exceptional and Pious Doctor), commenting on the Harlot of Rev. 17, says that the Church will be thoroughly destroyed, and many members will defect from the faith. But that doesn't mean that the Church will become antichristian and infidel, since those who defect from the faith, come to be by that very fact outside the Church, which always remains faithful.

Furthermore, the (vicar of the) head of the true Church might leave Rome or go into hiding. Should God permit the person of some Pontiff in those times to fall and to yield to the tyrants by professing errors, that wouldn't mean that a Pontiff falls or that the Church falls. Being outside the Church, the Church could depose him:

Quote from: Francisco Suárez S.J., Defense of the Catholic and Apostolic Faith Against the Errors of Anglicanism, Book Five, Chapter 21, Translated by Peter L.P. Simpson
Chapter 21: From the vision of Revelation chs.17 and following the new error about Antichrist is refuted rather than confirmed.
[...]
8. In whatever way, then, that prophecy be understood, therefrom can it not only not be collected that Rome is already now antichristian, but also neither can it with any likelihood be inferred that the Church, which is now at Rome, either is already, or will at some time be, antichristian and infidel, because although many citizens and members of it should defect from the faith, they come to be by that very fact outside the Church, which always remains faithful. And much less does it follow that the head of the true Church is or will ever be Antichrist, because although the city is thoroughly destroyed because of apostasy, or for any other cause whatever, the head and rock of the Church could stand firm, or reside elsewhere, or go into hiding. Nay, although God should permit the person of some Pontiff in those times to fall and to yield to the tyrants by professing errors, not for that reason would the Pontiff, as he is Pontiff, fall, nor would the Church fall, but, after deposing him, the Church could for itself create a Pontiff. Which is said for exaggeration and for more explaining the thing; for it is more credible that God will not permit it, especially during so great a tribulation and oppression of the Church.
aristotelophile.com (https://www.aristotelophile.com/current.htm)

This is pertinent to this thread, since Suárez explains how the Great Apostasy does not and cannot violate the indefectibility of the Church: Those who defect from the faith, come to be by that very fact outside the Church, which always remains faithful.



P.S.: Suárez agrees with what the Holy Fathers teach unanimously:

Quote from: St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, Liber II, Caput 30
Finally, the Holy Fathers teach unanimously not only that heretics are outside of the Church, but also that they are "ipso facto" deprived of all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and dignity. St. Cyprian (lib. 2, epist. 6) says: 'We affirm that absolutely no heretic or schismatic has any power or right'; and he also teaches (lib. 2, epist. 1) that the heretics who return to the Church must be received as laymen, even though they have been formerly priests or bishops in the Church. St. Optatus (lib. 1 cont. Parmen.) teaches that heretics and schismatics cannot have the keys of the kingdom of heaven, nor bind nor loose. St. Ambrose (lib. 1 de poenit., ca. 2), St. Augustine (in Enchir., cap 65), St. Jerome (lib. cont. Lucifer.) teach the same.
strobertbellarmine.net (http://strobertbellarmine.net/bellarm.htm)
Title: Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
Post by: Struthio on September 20, 2020, 12:52:56 PM
More than 50 years after the Vatican Council, Fr. Johannes Herrmann CSsR, approved by his Superior General Patritius Murray CSsR in Rome in 1936, begins his treaty about Antichrist with the statement, that the same will come at the consummation of the age.

 

Quote
INSTITUTIONES
THEOLOGIAE DOGMATICAE
P. JOANNES HERRMANN
CONGR. SS. REDEMPTORIS
––––––––––
TRACTATUS DECIMUS SEXTUS
DE NOVISSIMIS
––––––––
CAPUT III
De Antichristo

Antichristus est iste homo peccati et filius perditionis, qui in fine mundi Christo ejusque regno adversabitur.

Vocatur per antonomasiam Antichristus, seu Christi adversarius, quia, licet jam multi fuerint in mundo multique sint adhuc antichristi, secundum illud (I. Joan., II, 18): «Antichristus venit, et nunc antichristi multi facti sunt», hi tamen omnes velut typi et umbra illius sunt, qui in consummatione saeculi ad gentes seducendas venturus est, et qui caput et princeps est omnium Christi inimicorum.
ultramontes.pl (http://www.ultramontes.pl/de_antichristo.htm)

Quote from: translation
Antichrist is that man of sin and son of perdition, who at the end of the world will oppose Christ and his reign.

He is called Antichrist or opponent of Christ by antonomasia, because many will be in the world and many have been so far, according to (1 John 2:18): «Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists», although all these are rather like types or shadows of the one who will come at the consummation of the age to seduce the nations, and who is the head and leader of all enemies of Christ.